Indonesia: 'green water navy'

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Indonesia leans towards Iver Huitfeldt class for frigate acquisition | Jane's 360

Janes have tracked down an interesting rumour:

This will also be of interest to the UK thread, where the RN is considering a variant of the Iver Huitfeldt class for their Type 31. Also New Zealand, where the Type 31 may be a contender to replace the existing ANZAC frigates in the late 2020s.
I don’t understand why the UK would waste its time paying for a foreign design for a T31 when they have invested so much in the T26. Surely building 13 T26 hulls and fitting 5 of them with cheap kit would provide the cost savings Treasury wants and the T26 “Lite” version should be better than a T31? The RN would also also be able to upgrade a Lite version in the event a T26 was lost. As for NZ, tagging on to the OZ or Canadian build might be best considering the sub proliferation in the Asia Pacific region.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia leans towards Iver Huitfeldt class for frigate acquisition | Jane's 360

This will also be of interest to the UK thread, where the RN is considering a variant of the Iver Huitfeldt class for their Type 31. Also New Zealand, where the Type 31 may be a contender to replace the existing ANZAC frigates in the late 2020s.
This is already being talked for some time in local forum and Media. However it's not a done deal yet, since Damen in last Indonesia Defence also offering a completely new Frigates design call 'Omega'.

I've put before Odense with no shipyard on their own operating anymore, now selling design to any shipyard that want to build their design.
Thus it got 'traction' politically as they offer complete Tech Transfer to PAL for Iver design and manufacture process.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing... ive found this:
IndoDefence 2018: Damen Unveils 6000 Tons 'Omega' Frigate

Both the Iver Huitfeldt Class and Koninklijke Schelde's Omega design are great and interesting designs. Both are also using radar/sewaco systems from Hollandse Signaalapparaten, but the Omega design even a newer generation, which makes it maybe also more expensive.

So we just have to wait and see which one will be chosen, because prices and the amount of transfer of technology are also very important, if this current administration choose something.
 

steel jo

New Member
Thanks for sharing... ive found this:
IndoDefence 2018: Damen Unveils 6000 Tons 'Omega' Frigate

Both the Iver Huitfeldt Class and Koninklijke Schelde's Omega design are great and interesting designs. Both are also using radar/sewaco systems from Hollandse Signaalapparaten, but the Omega design even a newer generation, which makes it maybe also more expensive.

So we just have to wait and see which one will be chosen, because prices and the amount of transfer of technology are also very important, if this current administration choose something.
always positive to see Indonesia getting new surface capability I just hope the sustainment requirements are well included in the evaluation which is the trap for ALL Navies.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some good quality video shots from KRI Alugoro 405. It is the third out of three ordered Type 209-1400 submarines from South-Korea and the first one build by PAL.
Hopefully the trials will go smoothly after the launching.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some good quality video shots from KRI Alugoro 405. It is the third out of three ordered Type 209-1400 submarines from South-Korea and the first one build by PAL.
Hopefully the trials will go smoothly after the launching.
Looking good, a really useful addition to the service.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
KRI Alugoro 405, kapal selam buatan indonesia - ANTARA TV

Video for yesterday ceremony on KRI Alugoro hand over and launching. Also today, Mindef also sign contract (on several procurement project with local and overseas vendor), including USD 1.2 bio for second batch of 3 U209/1400 with PT. PAL and DSME.

Alugoro still has all the modules build by DSME but then assemble by PT. PAL in their submarine facility. The next 3 still not clear yet, how much modules build by PAL and how much by DSME.
PAL before shown slides (already put somewhere in this thread) on their plan modules development, which indicating progressing stages before the 6th (last Submarine on the 2nd batch), plan to have build locally on all modules.

Will remain to be seen if the stages still as planned. PAL still need to build further infrastructure if want to have all modules being manufacture in their facility.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I don’t understand why the UK would waste its time paying for a foreign design for a T31 when they have invested so much in the T26. Surely building 13 T26 hulls and fitting 5 of them with cheap kit would provide the cost savings Treasury wants and the T26 “Lite” version should be better than a T31? The RN would also also be able to upgrade a Lite version in the event a T26 was lost. As for NZ, tagging on to the OZ or Canadian build might be best considering the sub proliferation in the Asia Pacific region.
Back in 2010 the plan for the type 26 was to build 8 ASW and 5 GP versions.

It was all very sensible stuff, smaller mission bay, fewer VLS, smaller main gun, smaller flight deck, fewer sensors and so on with a subsequent reduction in size. It wasn't ideal but it sounded perfectly doable.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
KRI Alugoro 405, kapal selam buatan indonesia - ANTARA TV

Video for yesterday ceremony on KRI Alugoro hand over and launching. Also today, Mindef also sign contract (on several procurement project with local and overseas vendor), including USD 1.2 bio for second batch of 3 U209/1400 with PT. PAL and DSME.

Alugoro still has all the modules build by DSME but then assemble by PT. PAL in their submarine facility. The next 3 still not clear yet, how much modules build by PAL and how much by DSME.
PAL before shown slides (already put somewhere in this thread) on their plan modules development, which indicating progressing stages before the 6th (last Submarine on the 2nd batch), plan to have build locally on all modules.

Will remain to be seen if the stages still as planned. PAL still need to build further infrastructure if want to have all modules being manufacture in their facility.
Thank you for sharing.
Some links about the acquisition.

S. Korea signs contract to export 3 submarines to Indonesia | Yonhap News Agency

DSME to deliver three more submarines to Indonesia | Jane's 360

Its remarkable that with $ 1.020.000.000 the value of the contract is slightly below the contract of 2011.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Kontrak Lanjutan Dilaksanakan, Indonesia Tambah Lagi 3 Kapal Selam dari Korea

Well the local Media put the Submarine contract at USD 1.2 bio, and that's slightly higher than first batch contract at USD 1.1 bio.

I do tend to believe on USD 1.2 bio mark..as for this second batch, jobs for PAL will be higher thus eventough production cost of PAL lower than DSME, but as this is new manufacturing process for PAL..it usually will cost higher in the begining. Also this means a lot of materials will be trafficking between PAL and DSME facilities, thus will increase cost.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Correct me if I am wrong but the link seems to imply the UAVs are being paid for by a US government grant which understandably takes some time. Also, US UAVs are in high demand so delivery times likely are not optimal which may add further delay.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I am wrong but the link seems to imply the UAVs are being paid for by a US government grant which understandably takes some time. Also, US UAVs are in high demand so delivery times likely are not optimal which may add further delay.
That should be the reasons.
I also dont understand the US give it away for free, or they expecting that on the long term they can make money of it, after the receiving countries find out that the Insitu ScanEagle is a very usable UAV system and start to order spare parts and more UAVs.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The Teluk Bintuni class is an interesting class of Indonesian-made Landing Ship Tanks (LST), these 120 meters long transportships are really needed in our fleet to support amphibious operations by carrying tanks, vehicles, cargo, and landing troops directly onto shore.
Until now seven are under construction or already delivered.
KRI Teluk Bintuni 520 was the first one, KRI Teluk Lada 521 the second one.
KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519 will be delivered soon and last month (16-05-2019) the fifth one, KRI Teluk Youtefa 522 (AT-5), was launched.
KRI AT-6 (Teluk Palu 523) was launched on the 1st of this month (01-06-2019)
KRI AT-7 (Teluk Calang 524) is still under construction, and from which i understand, the 8th and 9th one are already ordered.

Video about KRI Teluk Bintuni 520

Commissioning ceremony of KRI Teluk Lada 521

Link and two videos of the launch of KRI Teluk Youtefa 522 (AT-5).
TNI AL Luncurkan Kapal Angkut Tank

Link of newsarticle and video of the launch of KRI AT-6 (Teluk Palu 523).
Resmi Meluncur, Teluk Palu Dijadikan Nama Kapal Milik TNI AL
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Teluk Bintuni class is an interesting class of Indonesian-made Landing Ship Tanks (LST), these 120 meters long transportships are really needed in our fleet to support amphibious operations by carrying tanks, vehicles, cargo, and landing troops directly onto shore.
Until now seven are under construction or already delivered.
KRI Teluk Bintuni 520 was the first one, KRI Teluk Lada 521 the second one.
KRI Teluk Kendari 518 and KRI Teluk Kupang 519 will be delivered soon and last month (16-05-2019) the fifth one, KRI Teluk Youtefa 522 (AT-5), was launched.
KRI AT-6 (Teluk Palu 523) was launched on the 1st of this month (01-06-2019)
KRI AT-7 (Teluk Calang 524) is still under construction, and from which i understand, the 8th and 9th one are already ordered.
Congrats. This along with the continuous build of the Nagapasa-class submarines, shows real commitment to naval ship building. The growth and change to your country’s navy is incredible. The ASEAN navies to watch closely for dramatic capability improvements until 2026, are those of:
(1) Vietnam with a 2017 defence budget of USD4.3 billion – a 4.7 per cent increase on the 2016 budget with their plans to fight in the littorals;
(2) Thailand with a 2017 defence budget of USD6.1 billion – a 5 per cent real increase on the 2016 defence budget; and
(3) Indonesia's Minimum Essential Force concept with a 2017 defence budget of USD7.7 billion – a 3.5 per cent real increase on the 2016 defence budget.​
By 2036, there will be only 1 navy worth watching for growth in potential - that of Indonesia.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
By 2036, there will be only 1 navy worth watching for growth in potential - that of Indonesia.
OPSSG, on this I'm going to be 'cautiously' optimistic. True there's long term plan for Naval Improvement on the Navy, but the problem in Indonesia is always in the Implementation.

The current MEF was the brainchild on two 'civilian' Defense Minister from Previous Admin, which also took much elements of defense planning from Soeharto era. Despite all it's short givings, many of current Indonesian projects can be trace to Soeharto regime long term planning, including the 'now' trending items in Indonesia, the Trans Java and Trans Sumatra 'Toll' highways.

Back to the Navy, from late 80's and 90's, PAL and Navy already put plan for building infrastructure for Submarine and 'Light Frigates' program. On that time, the Submarines plan was 209 based and Light Frigate was Fincantieri design based on their 2400 ton Lupo class light Frigate. There are also other projects including locally build LST, LPD, Multipurpose Replanishment Ships, Mine Hunters, and off course Patrol vessels.

The down fall of Soeharto and Economics crisis put this on hold. Later on in SBY regime, the plan being revamped as part of MEF (minimum essential force).
However there always 'tempatation' on implementation. Like Submarine procurement that being 'coloured' by insistence on some factions in Mindef and Parliamentary for Kilo that being procured not through local manufacturing as being planned.

Luckily for Submarine the factions that put 'sanity' check on procurement seems so far prevailed, which then submarine plan being procured as part of long term plan of submarine development and manufacture program that being put since Soeharto era.

However not all of the projects are in line with long term plan. Like the plan for PKR/Light Frigate. After the project being reinstated, PAL then talk again with Fincantieri and Damen on manufacture joint projects. Damen 10514 become based for PKR which then plan for #1-6 as Van Speijk replacement (which now already more than 50 years old, and already done several upgrading).
This then become an example of how implementation can go side ways. After PKR #1&2, the plan #3&4 still not being contract yet and now seems under question on 'if' going continue or not.
The idea for 'full size' frigate with either Iver Huitfeldt or Damen 'Omega' design (which used Zeven Provincien class hull), now getting tractions as Frigate which then replace Van Speijk.
Many info circulating on why this happened, from Navy not happy with PKR as frigate, PAL not happy with Damen worksharing in PKR, etc. But this again shown how long term plan can be 'boged down' due changes in implementation.

I don't have 'close' connections in Defense industry or Ministry, but with Financial Industry background I do have some talk with people in Bapenas (National Development Agency) and Ministry of Finance. People in those institution often talk on how the Mindef and TNI can changes their implementation projects even during one budget cycle year. It's not just once the Ministry of Finance told them, that since multiple budget years plan already being introduced, they should be disciplined on how to plan the budget and implementation projects.

Again this shown that the devil is always in Implementation. The defence White Books and MEF only provide 'general' directions and left open on implementation projects. Which not uncommon on the long term plan, but at least it should already prepared the study on general direction on asset specs. This from what I gather that being left open by Mindef, and resulted on various changes on Implementations projects.

Thus again, unless more disciplined on implementation projects can be more introduced by Mindef (in fact throughout all ministry in this administration), I can't hide my 'sceptics'.

Asia's Submarine Powerhouse You Might Not Know About

Just add, this article. This article writer bring some plan of 12 subs for TNI-AL. This plan already circulated on Indonesia Forums and Media.
But again, the detail is changing from time to time. From SBY era, infact from Soeharto era, the Navy already have plans to get back to 12 strong subs as in Soekarno era. Then again the implementation that always changing.

In Soeharto era in the 80's, the first two type 209, supposedly being followed by 4 other type 209, with plan 2 of them being build in German and other 2 in Surabaya. Then due to budget and other issue (including calculation of building manufacture facility in PAL), it's being put on hold.
Then in 90's to speed up the submarine learning cycle, it's plan to buy second hand 6 German type 206. This then to prepared the crew for Submarine development. Financial crisis put this on hold, even tough Indonesian crew already in German to train with 206.

Then in SBY era, the plan for more 209 also being prepared, however this time to get to #12 more faster, the are also talk to get either new build Kilo or second hand ones. Luckily those Kilo's plan can be put asside, and back to 209 development plan.

With the 209 being used as batch 1 and 2 (of 3 subs on each batch), the talk now on batch 3 & 4. This talk on batch of 3 & 4 being type 214 in my opinion the writer read too much in Indonesian forum or Media.
Since no talk on what going to be in Batch 3 & 4 (as part of example on how Indonesian defense plan always put in general and not even on what 'specs' of submarine will be) officially being put.

Will have to see on how in the end this's going to end up on batch 3&4 (if they ever be batch 3&4).
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some stray thoughts for your consideration (Part 1)
OPSSG, on this I'm going to be 'cautiously' optimistic. True there's long term plan for Naval Improvement on the Navy, but the problem in Indonesia is always in the Implementation.
1. Please bear with my incomplete thoughts on the Indonesian Navy that is not based on ground reality; and certainly lacking in knowledge compared to Sandhi Yudha and your posts here.
The Navy Chief already talk to media for 4 PKR 10514 and 2 Destroyers as replacement program for Van Speijk..
2. I would like to see 4 of a class at least for the PKR, but I suspect Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) series of SIGMA Naval Combatants should not be the core basis of Indonesia’s future frigate force (as ships have 15 to 20 years, useful service life before they need a mid-life upgrade).
After PKR #1&2, the plan #3&4 still not being contract yet and now seems under question on 'if' going continue or not.
The idea for 'full size' frigate with either Iver Huitfeldt or Damen 'Omega' design (which used Zeven Provincien class hull), now getting tractions as Frigate which then replace Van Speijk.
Many info circulating on why this happened, from Navy not happy with PKR as frigate, PAL not happy with Damen worksharing in PKR, etc. But this again shown how long term plan can be 'boged down' due changes in implementation...

Will have to see on how in the end this's going to end up on batch 3&4 (if they ever be batch 3&4).
3. IMO, SIGMA Naval Combatants are not suited to be a ship of the line surface combatant. It’s too lightly armed with 12 MICA missiles for self defence and at 105m, too small in tonnage (2,365 tons) for upgrades in view the increasing tensions in the South China Sea by 2036.
4. If budget permits and subject to Sandhi Yudha and your comments, I would personally prefer that:
  • Indonesia select a frigate design about 3,500 to 6,000 tons in displacement like the Omega design shared by Sandhi Yudha. The ship should be at least above 115 metres in length and with at least 24 to 32 anti-air missiles, at a build rate of one per year (continuous build strategy for the selected shipyard) and 6 to 8 for a class, for Indonesia to conduct regular patrols, viz a viz, other claimants.
  • The capability benchmark for a modern frigate to be used in the South China Sea be set against the 134 metre long Type 054A (Jiangkai II at 4,053 tonnes) or the even more capable 140 metre long class Type 054B (Jiangkai-III at 5,000 tons) multi-purpose frigates of the PLA(N), that are at least equipped with 32-cell VLS (HQ-16 SAM) and 8 x C-803 anti-ship missiles.
5. Having a stronger naval presence for Indonesia (well within your country's capability with the current size of Indonesia's economy), is key to ensuring that your country is less affected. And as a leader of ASEAN, a strong Indonesia can serve to mediate between hostile parties (be it intra-ASEAN hostility or with China or Taiwan). Like China, the Vietnamese communist party are keen to push back against other claimants - if they can’t win against a big power, they would be tempted to pick a smaller guy to fight against. Going bigger to above 3,500 tons helps with endurance in bad weather, ensure that there is enough hotel power and cooling to support a good radar; and provides the vessel with a stable platform to ensure a good radar picture - while using a smaller ship like the PKR to confront and escort other ships while the more capable ship lurks over the horizon.
Then in SBY era, the plan for more 209 also being prepared, however this time to get to #12 more faster, the are also talk to get either new build Kilo or second hand ones. Luckily those Kilo's plan can be put asside, and back to 209 development plan.
6. Indonesia's Type 209s, along with your fighters, serve as part of an anti-access and sea denial strategy. But that is not to say that conventional deterrence, as a theory will work on China and the PLA(N). The threat of force in order to discourage an opponent, like the PLA(N) from taking an unwelcome action does not work, as even if all the navies of ASEAN are combined, we would have insufficient capability to meet the ‘threat’.

7. China has “since the mid 2000s expressed concern over its so-called ‘Malacca Dilemma,’ whereby a vast majority of its imported energy resources passes through... the Malacca Strait.” China has a “desire for independence of strategic decision making by developing the PLA(N). Commenting on the South China Sea navies in 2013, Geoffrey Till noted that "the Vietnamese, Taiwanese and Philippine navies all know they would have no hope of prevailing, or even of surviving, against a much more powerful and implacably resolute Chinese navy." Even non-claimant ASEAN members like Indoensia are anxious for other reasons. To back up President Joko Widodo’s emphasis on maritime issues, Indonesia has clamped down on illegal fishing and arrested Chinese fishing vessels. At the broader level, there are concerns that China is undermining ASEAN’s unity, where it wants.

8. Luckily, things are not so simple. "Such a victory by China would simply confirm ‘the China threat theory’ and undermine its claim to be rising peacefully." It could spark counteractions by others. Moreover all three navies know that in any such calculation, were such an extremely unlikely event ever to come to pass, PLA(N) campaign planners would have to keep back, the bulk of their naval forces to guard against the possibility of American intervention. Vietnam with its acquisition of six Kilo submarines is plainly investing in its own version of an anti-access and sea denial strategy. Instead of following the news cycle on China and its disputes with other ASEAN members (or the US), we should also worry that the two countries that came closest to failing at escalation control. Taiwan and the Philippines in May 2013. The Indonesian government has sunk more than 500 illegal fishing vessels since October 2014. In 2018 alone, Indonesia blew up 86 fishing boats from Vietnam, 20 fishing boats from Malaysia and 14 fishing boats from Philippines. And Vietnam with so many fishing boats sunk will be tempted to more aggressive in pushing back against other claimants, once their naval capabilities become mature by 2026. In addition, Indonesia's role in keeping the peace among the various ASEAN nations will become increasingly important.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Thanks OPSSG for your assessment. It's precise and to the point.
So far based on local media and some info the two leading candidate for 'full size' Frigate program as being mentioned before the Iver Huitfeldt based (138 m) and Damen Omega (144 m as using Zeven Provincien hull) in paper should be able to house 32 VLS (either Sylver or Mk 41) for either Aster 30 or SM-3.

Again my concern more on how the Indonesian defense planning and implementation in general. For some time, they (Navy) seems more concerned to get more in quantity then in quality. Thus why PRK, Corvettes, and 40m-60m missile boats/patrol boats seems more on the planning.

At the same time, this administration also plan to have more robust coast guard to handle constabulary duties. Thus more white hulls OPV are being constructed. The Batam's shipyards so far already shown they are able to produce 80m-110m OPV's for Coast Guard in relative short time and quite efficiently.

But this seems for me, put the Navy on 'awkard' possition. In sense they still building those 30m, 40m and 60m patrol boats, which only good for mostly constabularie duties. As seems the Navy still reluctant to hand over those duties to Coast Guard.

With Coast Guard being introduced, the Navy should posed their development only to OPV's, Corvettes and Frigates as their surface combatants and focus their development toward more tech oriented infrastructure including their man power towards that.
What I see so far is the Navy already shown 'some' indications toward that, but at the same time still want to conduct duties that should be handed over to coast guard.

This conflict of interest and still lack of detail steps in implementation of long term planning that make me still 'cautious' toward Navy goals to become more 'modern' Navy.
 
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