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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by Supe, Jun 28, 2005.

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  1. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Well even the signing in 2019, but the actual contract according to that in 2018.
    So, by that time the third KCR 60 still in the finalisation stage in PAL while the fourth still in building process.

    Only the 1st and 2nd already operational. Thus the way I read it, the 1st and 2nd retrofitted with Terma suits, and 3rd and 4th being installed from beginning with Terma suits.

    This those four KCR60 being talked, the way I see it is the four of 1st batch. 2nd batch by that time still in plan, and we still do not know if the 2nd batch will also used Terma suits.

    Well that's how I interpreted the article, and compared with the condition of 1st batch..off course I could be wrong..we'll know of more official Navy information come out...;)
     
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  2. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    A very interesting video from PT PAL..
    At 1:26 you can see on the left KRIRaden Eddy Martadinata331 with the Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS already installed!
    At 1:50 it seems KRI Kerambit reached 28kts.
    There are no any guns installed, and i can only see a simple navigation radar, so the anti-ship missiles launch tubes should be empty too.
    We can conclude that PAL has delivered again a great modern warship, but in FFBNW condition.


    I actually dont understand why the navy give the number 628 to the first of class KRI Sampari, and then KRI Tombak 629 and KRI Halasan 630 and now the fourth one KRi Kerambit 627. I know that the FPB 57 Mk V starts with KRI Todak 631, but it would be more logic to give KRI Sampari the number 601...and then
    KRI Tombak 602
    KRI Halasan 603
    KRI Kerambit 604
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
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  3. Khabaopie

    Khabaopie New Member

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    PT PAL holds steel-cutting ceremony for an additional 2 KCR-60 vessels. Apologies as the link is in Indonesian.

    Furthermore, according to a recent Instagram post from PAL about the new construction they will be delivered fully equipped with weapons. I'm quite curious of what they will be as the TNI AL has shifted away from Chinese CMS and sensors to Terma for outfitting the KCR-60. Will Terma's CMS be compatible with the C-705 or NG-18 CIWS currently equipped on earlier vessels? Or will they receive different weapons (Exocet maybe)? Or alternatively, that post was just typical corporate guff hyping the product.
     
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  4. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    I think it all depends on how extensive Terma suits system design that PAL cooperate with the Supplier. If Terma provide cooperation on using their source code, then I do believe it will not be too difficult to integrate with non Western CIWS. As long as Terma fire control system can be make to accept Chinese CWIS, then it shouldn't be too difficult to make Terma suits take control of Chinese made CIWS.

    However I'll think it will be quite another story on C-705 SSM integration since it will involve more both ways data interaction.
    It's been a week more in circulation of Min-Def source article that saying they have program to reverse engineering C-705.
    What is this mean ? well try to find out more clarification on this for last few days, but no more clear indication.
    Still if this mean they can open Chinese source code (through either license or non license program)..then yes they can theoritically used Terma Suits for C-705.

    Add:
    English article from Naval News on the KCR 60:
    Indonesian Navy Commissions its 4th KCR-60M - PT Pal Cuts Steel for 2 More - Naval News
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  5. Khabaopie

    Khabaopie New Member

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    Thanks for the article Ananda, my Indonesian isn't quite yet good enough to read PAL's press release beyond the general gist of it.

    Can you give me the link to that article? I think the last I heard of Indonesia locally manufacturing the C-705 was through a The Diplomat article in 2013 and absolutely nothing after that, apparently there were quibbles over Indonesia demanding export rights (or China forbidding them, I can't remember) though it seems I can't find the article. I think it will be a great boon for the TNI AL if SSMs could be manufactured domestically. Though I do wonder what sort of response this "reverse engineering" (if unlicensed) would elicit from the PRC.
     
  6. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Well, about a week ago..local forums circulated an article that they said originated from Minded sites.

    However when I check that site;
    https://www.kemhan.go.id/pothan/201...ipasi-dalam-latihan-angkasa-yudha-tni-au.html

    The article that according to the local forums talk about some projects including reverse engineering C-705, can not be found by me.
    So tell you the truth, I'm bit sceptical on the program whether exist or not. One thing for sure this C-705 program has not proceed..so there's probable the program exist, but the mindef take down the article.

    After all from what I gather the 122mm local build artillery rockets also begin as reverse engineered from Russian/East European origin 122mm rocket.
    I don't know how this will progress since seems they are keep the tone down. One thing that I heard, Mindef still looking on every potential whether through licenses or unlicensed program on getting domestically build SSM.

    Add:
    Besides looking on official local media, sometimes I also browsing local forum or blogs that sometimes come out with their information that not being put in official news. However many times those information have 'questionable' credibility due can not be verified on other media or official sources.

    Thus for me I just classified that as 'rumours'. Some of the rumours on SSM is that Mindef looking on several potential SSM to be use as based for locally build SSM. Now by regulation Mindef has to get as much as technologically possible of asset to be build locally. SSM from what I gather is part of asset that need to be build locally as part of Indonesian maritime strategy.
    How they are going to push forward on this, remain to be seen. However Indonesia do have ambition to be more self reliance at least on some missile technology.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  7. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    IMHO, on reverse engineering C-705, the really difficult part is the guidance section for targeting and the obstacle avoidance logic within the guidance section. And even after it works during testing, the through life of the missile is difficult to predict, especially for mean-time between failure data on the rocket motors and other missile maintenance issues. For initial testing, the TNI AL would need an instrumented range to fire the missiles — almost bi-annually or such other frequency determined by your scientists. Which means it will cost more than buying off the shelf. This can be done, but it’s just expensive to keep firing them to get data.

    If the TNI AL wanted to arm 1 vessel with 4 missiles, they just need to order 6 off-the shelf missiles — 1 fired to qualify the system and 1 fired at mid-life (with 4 retained as war stocks over a period of 10 years).

    When you reverse engineer, you will need multiple firings (at least 5 to 10 for tests over different test conditions) to qualify the missile and at least 4 more bi-annual firings (assuming your propellant is shelf-stable and stored correctly) to gather data on its service life (over a period of 10 years).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
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  8. tonnyc

    tonnyc Active Member

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    The bit about reverse-engineering the C-705 was on the MINDEF's own website. A casual mention that there is such a program. It has been taken down, but it was there. I read it myself and I can still find Google's cache of the article showing that I was not dreaming.

    Whether they will succeed is not certain. As OPSSG pointed out, the guidance/control is difficult.
     
  9. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Looking some of the local sites that manage to copy that article before Minded website take it down, seems Mindef knows the priority is to reverse engineering the guidance system. Guidance system is still the ones that much lack on Indonesian domestic rocket program. Despite what being said in local media,forums or occasionally slip-up from Mindef, I still don't see current administration put much 'resources' on any related Missile/Rockets development.

    Put this as example, The state space agency (LAPAN) for some time already has program for their own Space Launch Vehicle to launch their Micro and Mini Satellites that so far being launched by Indian Rockets.

    However the initial plan that being put at the time of Previous Admin, put 2019/2020 as time line for their first Launch Vehicle to put micro-mini Satellites on near low earth orbit (300km-600km range). So far they only reach prototyping 450mm booster for 100km-150km range. Those booster should be as strap-on booster and second stage booster for the plan vehicle, thus this means by this time line they are not even reaching prototype of Main Rocket engine (which from what I gather should be at 550mm class).
    The vehicle from what I read from various media based on LAPAN official announcement should have consists of three stage vehicle with first stage of 3 rockets ( one main of 550mm and two strap-on booster of 450mm), and second stage of one 450mm, and third stage of small booster of 320mm on the back of the satellite.

    LAPAN believe due to Indonesia location in tropics, that combination will be enough to push 50kg - 100kg satellite class to near low earth earth orbit. This is from my understanding still not final design, so they might change already. Thus, it is not actually very ambitious program. However even by that,they are still behind.

    This back to my main Argument above, unless the Administration put much more resources on domestic missile and rocket program, those program eventough exists will take much longer time to shown any outcome. After all it take more than six years (if my calculation correct) just to get certification on reverse engineered old Russian/Eastern Block tech 122mm unguided MLRS.

    Anyway:
    First Indonesian-Built Submarine to Soon Reinforce TNI AL Fleet - Naval News

    First locally 'assemble' Submarine will soon reach operational status.
    I'm not putting Indonesian built in here as the article says, since all the modules still come from South Korea and assemble in PAL Facilities.
    The second batch of three, if no changes on plan will put PAL on stages on manufacturing involvement with begin in the 4th one they are involve manufacture two modules (the Rest still in South Korea) and advancing to 6th one that planned to be build all modules in PAL Facilities.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
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  10. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    BAE Systems 57mm gun systems selected for Indonesian Navy’s fast attack craft | BAE Systems | United States

    Well seems those four first batch KCR60 will get their main gun after all this time. Despite some 'rumours' of using Russian 57mm A-220M, the deal goes back to Bofors again.

    TNI-AL previous missile boats the Lursen design FPB-57, are using Bofors 57mm Mk2. However the Parchim using Russian 57mm gun. Thus it's seems one of reason on speculation before, on using either Russian 57mm or Bofors 57mm for KCR60.
     
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  11. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    In the last seconds you can see that the Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS is already installed.
     
  12. SSJArcher Krich

    SSJArcher Krich New Member

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    Interesting.

    Is Indonesia planning to acquire a submarine launched cruise missile capability?

    Within the ASEAN region, Malaysia with its Scorpene submarines and SM39 Exocet anti ship missiles possess this capability.

    Vietnam followed with Kilo class submarines and Klub anti ship missiles.

    Singapore might be the third with their Invincible Type 218SG class submarines.

    Would Indonesia's future subs procured during Minimum Essential Force phase III acquire such a capability?
     
  13. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    At this moment there are no indications that the Type 218SG from Singapore are to be armed with anti-ship/land attack cruise missiles.
    Singapore discloses further details of Invincible-class submarines | Jane's 360
    But it is quite sure that all existing Type 209 submarines from the Indonesian Navy and the three new ones on order are not capable to be equipped with missiles.
     
  14. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    @Sandhi Yudha bit slight correction if I may..The Nagapasa class (batch 1 and 2) is derived from ROK Changbogo which's capable of Sub Harpoon.

    Considering DSME also reference them as Improved Changbogo, I do think they are capable off SSM. However I do agree at this moment there are no indication they are being armed with SSM even for considerable future.

    So perhaps I just call the Nagapasa class fitted for but not equipped (yet) for SSM capabilities.
     
  15. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The South Koreans have a robust submarine launched cruise missile capability and like ananda, I too would assume that Indonesian submarines based on the same design are fitted for but not with this capability. Under the MEF, it would not be a priority until Indonesia acquires more of such submarines (when the magic number 9, as a threshold, is reached).
    You are correct, submarine launched cruise missiles is a capability that Singapore is unlikely to field (in the immediate future, as it may trigger regional sensibilities / arms race for this class of weapons). To save money for our limited defence budget, my guess is that we don’t want to field such type of highly offensive capability, yet — as it will increase regional tensions for so little gain. IMHO, it’s not a priority given the SAF’s more pressing needs in other areas.

    Sorry for going slightly off-topic below, to answer the questions raised in this thread, let me state 3 points:

    (i) My understanding is that the Singapore Navy is concerned about the launch signature of a submarine launched cruise missile, which will give away the position of our submarine during a patrol, for so little reward — as we have other cheaper means to achieve the same effects. For the Singapore Navy, a submarine is an intelligence gathering asset (that is by design supposed to be on station for weeks on end). It can attack but that is not it’s most important role for us. Plus, we don’t have the money to invest in a larger submarine force (as we currently plan to remain a four Type 218SG sub navy). IMO, there is a strong preference for air launched or ship launched cruise missiles, due to inherent balanced fleet design limitations of Singapore’s limit in its ambition for its tiny undersea force.

    (ii) IMHO, there is a strong tendency for Singaporean fanboys to over-estimate or mis-understand the nature of the SAF’s capability developments.

    (iii) For the foreseeable future, Singapore will develop capabilities in smaller increments, compared to current leaps, with the current round of introduction of new classes of weapons. The focus till 2030 should be on sustainment, the number and duration of patrols as a defence output. It is also important to know that Singapore does not want to be seen as too capable, as the US or Australia will pressure us to do more in their future adventures. Singapore wants to be just capable enough to deter against Malaysian mis-calculation till 2061 (or what Dr Ng calls a ‘sweet spot’ of capability development) and also to work with Australia and the US. But Singapore would want to limit our involvement in supporting American or Australian operations, via the deployment of forces for peace support operations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
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  16. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    At least three of the Korean Chang-Bogo Class submarines are upgraded to have the capability to fire UGM-84 Harpoons.

    Yes, the plan was that these submarines will be equipped withAtlas Elektronik CSU 90 hull-mounted passive and active search-and-attack sonar and flank sonar arrays, Indra's Pegaso RESM system and Aries low-probability of intercept radar, L3's MAPPS integrated platform management systems and Safran's Sigma 40XPinertial navigation systems, which are an improvement over the original class. But that the Nagapasa Class boats are regarded by DSME as "Improved Chang Bogo" doesnt mean automatically that they are able to be armed with submarine launched missiles.

    In this era of fanboyish comments and statements of our politicians, such capabilities are announced way before it becomes reality.
     
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  17. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    Not only Singaporean fanboys have a strong tendency to over-estimate or misunderstand the nature of the capability developments of their armed forces....all fanboys worldwide have that tendency.... :-D
    That's why they are fanboys....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2019
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  18. SSJArcher Krich

    SSJArcher Krich New Member

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    Singapore has revealed very little about the Type 218SG or Invincible class of submarines.

    From the fact that it abandoned the Swedish line of subs developed by Kockums to move to a ThyssenKrupps developed Type 218SG specially catered for Singapore's needs might indicate that something may be cooking behind the scenes.

    I don't believe Singapore would like to reveal such a capability in public because of the impact on foreign relations and possibly, the start of an arms race in the region. At the same time, the acquisition of such a capability by the RMN and the Vietnamese Navy could not have gone unnoticed.

    The most likely course of action from Singapore is denial and hiding its true strength.

    However, that's bad for the region because if the regional countries were individually better armed, better trained, better educated and had access to better logistical facilities, they'd be able to take a firmer stand against Chinese expansionism in the region. That's a different topic.

    Thank you for your explanation.
     
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  19. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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  20. Sandhi Yudha

    Sandhi Yudha Active Member

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    Thanks for sharing!
    "The Exocet MM40 Block 3 guided missile is a strategic weapon for the TNI-AL for it has the ability to attack ships at sea, and also targets that are close to the coastline". I just wonder....does he mean ships at sea that are close to the coast, or are these ground targets that are close to the coastline?