One thing that surprised me when I looked at the proposed design for the Royal Thai Navy was the hybrid diesel-electric engine. In hindsight it was a natural progression from the conventional diesel configuration. With MTU as the engine manufacturer all PAL has to worry about is the integration of the engine to the hull, which is a significant but manageable challenge, especially with MTU's assistance. I like this approach of incremental but continuous progress way more than any bombastic defense procurement program that supposedly will change the defense landscape of the region.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
I can see some positive political bonding with such a project.
Indonesia will always be a close neighbour and one we continue to delicately try to have a close relationship with; although this has being tested many times over the decades.
For two such different nations a joint project such as a hospital ship or two ticks many boxes.
A win for both nations.
One to explore.
Regards S
What sort of partnership are you thinking off?
In terms of ship building, I would expect the two respective nations would rather build their own ship.
If we are talking in terms of joint operations, I think there is possibly a good idea here. Clearly a single hospital ship would not always be available. To have an international pool and a joint organisation to direct activities would solve that problem.
Given the amount of natural disasters in the region, an International Rescue organisation, established through a joint Indonesian/Australian initiative, might be a good idea. Various warning systems, operated by geologists, could be incorporated also. In time,
possibly other regional nations would want to join.
OFF TOPIC but a backgrounder
Speaking from a natural hazards POV, international natural hazard warning systems already exist for tsunami and cyclones / hurricanes. Unfortunately the Indian Ocean tsunami warning system is sub-optimal for a variety of regional bureaucratic reasons. Geologists per se, are not climate or weather experts so do not have input into weather warning systems. Tsunami warning systems are a reactive measure because they are only activated after an earthquake of 7.3 magnitude or greater in an oceanic or coastal zone, although shallow quakes of magnitudes of 6.9 and 7.0 have been know to trigger tsunami. At the present point in time, there is no valid scientific method for reliably forecasting individual earthquake events to the temporal span of single years, months or days. This is unlike volcanic eruptions or damaging weather events, where significant knowledge is known about the processes involved and more importantly the volcano or weather event is able to be fully monitored and modelled.
A natural hazard is defined as when a natural event system impacts upon a human use system. Humans have always congregated on the areas with fertile soils or close to the sea. In SEA, this tends to be either close to volcanoes and / or the coast. Volcanic soils are very fertile so the human population thrives, hence SEA has become quite populous, especially with the abundant seafood. Once people settle in an area they won't move, especially if the settlement has been there for many generations. Disasters come and go and the survivors rebuild upon upon the remnants of the latest disaster. In an ideal world the population would retreat inland from a tsunami hazard area or away from a volcanic hazard zone, but'we don't live in an ideal world and people resist such changes, because for many those areas are their livelihood and sole means of survival, especially if they are subsistence living or hand to mouth living.
For countries in SEA not having great treasuries, with large populations, being subjected to repeated natural disasters creates economic, social, political and security dilemmas, because each disaster can make it harder for the country to recover, especially if they have disasters in rapid succession. That has an impact upon how they respond to each disaster.
A good question.
I may need some help for an answer.
Given we have some large naval projects on the go with the OPV,s ,Subs and future Destroyers for a total of 33 large vessels I would like to know how we are placed for all the training and people required to full fill the wide range of positions to complete these projects. This would also tie in with other current defence work like the ANZAC upgrade and other minor defence projects.
Also the civilian sector has many builders both big and small for building and maintaining vessels / boats and ships across the nation.
If all of the above are doing well then I would suggest we consider building locally.
But it would still need to be good value for money.
My gut reaction for this vessel is money and time.
The Makassar class as has been mentioned come in a range of sizes.
I would prefer two Tarlac size ships built in Indonesia, but with some local supervision to maintain our standards of expectation.
These vessels offer a lot for the price and could be built and in service in a few years time. Not a bad outcome.
The political sell is value for money / Time of Build and fostering ties with an important neighbour at a crucial time for regional Defence /political dynamics.
Notions of loss of jobs while important can be absorbed with the current and future naval build activity....... I think we have been generous and agree with the domestic projects going forward but we also have to be practical.
A third LHD and Supply ship would have been my preference but I unfortunately don't see it happening, but this one could be a goer.
Two ( Not one IE : availability ) regional support ships operated by Navy doing good regional work looks a winner. Tactically at the end of the day these will still be military ships designed to adapt and be fitted with a basic weapons suite to do military stuff within the parameters of their design to help and support the ADF
For Indonesia the domestic political good will and self esteem generated from building and operating with it's rich southern neighbour will go along way to building bridges for our two countries.
A number of these ships shared by our two nations working together for our common interest will I trust be good ambassadors in helping and supporting the region in many ways.
Thoughts
Regards S
For the later part of the question
Yes devote resources to a joint Indonesian / Australian Initiative to aid / train / advise / coordinate to natural disasters.
This does not have to be just a defence thing!!!
Other departments budgets may asist with this endevour.
Regards S
Yes devote resources to a joint Indonesian / Australian Initiative to aid / train / advise / coordinate to natural disasters.
This does not have to be just a defence thing!!!
Other departments budgets may asist with this endevour.
Regards S
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Kemhan Pesan Kapal Cepat Rudal 5 & 6 Dengan Senjata Lengkap ke PT PAL | merdeka.com
2nd batch order for PAL's KCR 60 (Fast Missile Boat 60m). Interestingly the first batch used Chinese made CMS and electronics which then supposedly to support Chinese C705 SSM.
However seems the plan cooperation to license build C705 did not materialise, and with the second batch being used suppliers like SAAB, MBDA, and Terma, indicating on Danish CMS, with Swedish Sensors and Electronics and French Missile.
Will be interesting on which gun they'll used, since before in local media being reported on potential 57mm that either Russian origin or Swedish origin. With Electronics from SAAB, should be using Bofors one..but will see..
2nd batch order for PAL's KCR 60 (Fast Missile Boat 60m). Interestingly the first batch used Chinese made CMS and electronics which then supposedly to support Chinese C705 SSM.
However seems the plan cooperation to license build C705 did not materialise, and with the second batch being used suppliers like SAAB, MBDA, and Terma, indicating on Danish CMS, with Swedish Sensors and Electronics and French Missile.
Will be interesting on which gun they'll used, since before in local media being reported on potential 57mm that either Russian origin or Swedish origin. With Electronics from SAAB, should be using Bofors one..but will see..
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I think collaboration with Indonesia in design and operation of a pacific/hospital ship.
Build I don't really care, however, I think an Indonesian build would help make friends and would be key to the project.
With the Pacific ship, I see its role as completely non-military.
But Indonesia has loads of experience with this kind of project with its own people. What a great opportunity for Indonesian and Australian (and the wider Pacific) doctors to work together.
If you ask Australian doctors what they need, and build it in Australia, you won't get change out of $5 billion. How much is the new Hospital at Lae going to cost? $200-$400 million? $20m to operate a year?
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...hospital-for-170-million-20160929-grrcuz.html
Even in military operations, having a civilian support/hospital ship will be important to help deal with causalities and rebuilding.
Build I don't really care, however, I think an Indonesian build would help make friends and would be key to the project.
With the Pacific ship, I see its role as completely non-military.
But Indonesia has loads of experience with this kind of project with its own people. What a great opportunity for Indonesian and Australian (and the wider Pacific) doctors to work together.
If you ask Australian doctors what they need, and build it in Australia, you won't get change out of $5 billion. How much is the new Hospital at Lae going to cost? $200-$400 million? $20m to operate a year?
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...hospital-for-170-million-20160929-grrcuz.html
Even in military operations, having a civilian support/hospital ship will be important to help deal with causalities and rebuilding.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
So, all the four ships from the first and second batch are equipped with Chinese electronics, sensors, CMS and C705 missiles, or only the first two boats?
PT PAL completes second order of fast missile ship - ANTARA News
And from Defense Ministry, PT PAL Indonesia to build fast missile boats - ANTARA News we can get this information about the 5th and 6th boats:
"Meanwhile, Director of PT PAL Indonesia Budiman Saleh remarked that the fast missile boats would involve 62 private firms in defense industry and four state-run companies, namely weapon manufacturer PT Pindad, engineering company PT Barata Indonesia, steel producer Krakatau Steel, and electronics company PT LEN Industri.
Saleh revealed that the two missile boats will have 19.56 percent of local content, in accordance with the ministry`s requirement of minimum essential force (MEF) in 2015-2019 budget.
The project has also involved three world weapon suppliers, namely Bofors (Swedish), MBDA (France), and Terma (Denmark)."
Thats remarkable, 100% of the ships are PAL designed and will be constructed in Surabaya, involving more than 60 Indonesian companies....yet less than 20% is local content.....HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? Or is it 19,56% of the value?
Three different companies from three different countries....sounds complicated.
BAE Systems Bofors could provide the Bofors 57 mm Mk3 naval gun,Saab Bofors Dynamicsthe RBS-15 anti-ship missile, and Ericsson (Saab Microwave systems) the Naval Combat Management System and sensors. Then most foreign components are from Sweden.
If PAL choose Thompson-CSF/Thales for all sensors and electronics and MBDA for the MM40 Exocets, then its mostly France.
I just wonder why PAL/TNI-AL/Indonesia do not want to continue with the chinese systems....is it because of political reasons, or lack of quality?
Is that really the wisest approach?
Surely the idea is to build a cooperative spirit between the two nations. After all, Australia and Indonesia are the two most powerful nations in the region and it would be beneficial for the region as a whole for these two nations to build a positive, constructive relationship. This is self evident.
But, this needs to be about keeping everyone happy. There is no point winning support in Indonesia if the way that support is won results in creating resentment in Australia. That would defeat the purpose of fostering cooperation. Given ship building is a matter of political interest, I would suggest not involving the issue in any attempt at cooperation. Operational cooperation on aid and distaster relief would be much more likely to bring both nations together on a shared purpose and furthermore, inspire others to get involved.
I personally can't see the idea of buying an Indonesian ship passing muster regardless of whether Labor or Liberal got the majority. There will be cries of "Why aren't we building it in Australia" and trying to explain that they don't want to actually spend that much money is just politically unpalatable.
Still, one possible compromise is to "rent" the Indonesian hospital ship KRI Dr. Soeharso. Its status as a hospital ship should help. The politicians can make the excuse that since the Australian Navy does not currently have a hospital ship and the need is only intermittent, it makes sense to just rent the ship as needed. It's an older ship, and the Indonesian Navy already has a replacement ship in line, so Indonesian Navy won't mind losing access to it for a while. So rent it for a short time, say a year, though the language probably should say joint-mission or something, and have a joint Australian-Indonesian medical staff on-board. Then allocate some money to pay for operational cost and salaries of the Indonesian crew. I don't know what the rent of a hospital ship should be, but rather than paying it with money, perhaps equipping the ship with more modern medical equipment and allowing Indonesia to keep it is a better approach. I also think that giving medical equipment is politically more palatable to both sides while allowing Australia to spend the rental money on Australian businesses instead of giving it straight as cash.
If the first joint-mission works out, then a longer term partnership can be hammered out.
Unfortunately, given what I see in the Australian parliament, I don't think this is possible in the near future. Had Julie Bishop remained as foreign minister under a stable Turnbull leadership, or maybe if she had become PM, maybe she can work something out, since she's good at diplomacy and foreign policy. Scott Morrison though is too busy with short term challenges within the Liberal Party that he can't really spare the time to think of long-term cooperation.
Short answer is we are in election mode, so we are hamstrung by political point scoring which limits making important decisions on subjects such as this regardless of which way you / we / I ,think we should go.
The concept of the Pacific support ship has merit. The challenge for us all is we no so little about what the government is proposing, both in the vessels design and the expectations of its role.
It does however foster healthy debate about HADR and the type of vessels to satisfy this requirement and how defence fits into this picture.
Something about international relations also comes into the mix as well.
Indonesia s Makassar Class is one option - Maybe
- Renting, I'm open to the concept short term
All the best S
Ananda
The Bunker Group
From several photos on KCR 60 batch 1 that being refurbished recently..yes they still using Chinese sensors, electronics and even CIWS.
Why this batch onward they don't used Chinese electronics anymore..I tend to see due to the deal for C-705 did not come through.
The decision on using Chinese electronics on KCR-60 before related on decision that time on using C-705 as the SSM missiles. As this craft practically design as Fast Missile Craft (FMC), then everything on this crafts will be centered on the missiles.
Since for whatever reason the deal for C-705 seems fall down..whether to quality of C-705 as one source speculated or Chinese did not want to give full tech transfer on license build agreement..seems they decided to used different missile on the next batch. Since Exocet block 3 already being used by the new Corvettes and Light Frigates.. getting this KCR on that missile is more logical move on standardized SSM.
Again the Exocet 3 as missile still speculation because the mentioned of MBDA as part of supplier. I know SAAB also try to get RBS 15 on the deal too.
We purchase ship's from Spain, Vietnam and eastern Europe. If it's a joint collaboration in operation it makes even more sense. Not a deal breaker if done properly.
At 150m we could build it at Henderson or Osborne. The more I look at what a Pacific ship really needs, the more I think it needs to be bigger. If you look at the region.. Maybe two operation theaters, x ray/computer tomography, ultrasound bays, radiation therapy machine, child incubators, blood analysis, full dental, a dozen consult rooms for specialists and GP's, in/out beds for 40. And that is just what the hospital requirement would be like. We want to tie in policing, trade, agriculture, environmental, governance, HDAR. Also there is a huge difference between what you would want for a medical for military purposes and civilian purposes.
Indonesia also for the crewing/medical staff. As a joint Australia/Indonesia approach. Purchase price is only one aspect.
At 150m we could build it at Henderson or Osborne. The more I look at what a Pacific ship really needs, the more I think it needs to be bigger. If you look at the region.. Maybe two operation theaters, x ray/computer tomography, ultrasound bays, radiation therapy machine, child incubators, blood analysis, full dental, a dozen consult rooms for specialists and GP's, in/out beds for 40. And that is just what the hospital requirement would be like. We want to tie in policing, trade, agriculture, environmental, governance, HDAR. Also there is a huge difference between what you would want for a medical for military purposes and civilian purposes.
Indonesia also for the crewing/medical staff. As a joint Australia/Indonesia approach. Purchase price is only one aspect.
Still assuming that the role is a hospital ship with a few extras, and I still don't know why we have this fixation if there's been no official announcement of that as a primary role. I wish I could find it.
On another note, what is HDAR? I thought it might be a typo, but you use it all the time. Something different from HADR (Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief)? Or just a slightly mixed acronym?
oldsig
Same, I often think - Humanitarian Disaster and Relief. I dunno, the HDAR sits better with my brain for some reason, the location of the vowel? Maybe my fixation of acronyms with DAR are the end.
The initial concept of a pacific ship it wasn't focused on just being a hospital ship. But Australia has had a bunch of notable problems building and operating medical facilities in the the South Pacific. But it would also likely see use to support civilian policing missions (with actual police), support development projects, etc.
The initial concept of a pacific ship it wasn't focused on just being a hospital ship. But Australia has had a bunch of notable problems building and operating medical facilities in the the South Pacific. But it would also likely see use to support civilian policing missions (with actual police), support development projects, etc.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesia begins installation of Millennium Gun, VL MICA on lead Martadinata frigate | Jane's 360
Well, the installation of VL Mica and Rheinmettal Millennium CIWS in PKR/Light Frigates Martadinata class finally begin after close to two years the ship operational.
Well, the installation of VL Mica and Rheinmettal Millennium CIWS in PKR/Light Frigates Martadinata class finally begin after close to two years the ship operational.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing Ananda!
At last....we have wait many years for this... Trying to defend Indonesian waters with high-tech expensive frigates armed with only a 76 mm main gun and two 20 mm manually operated guns, is like defending Indonesian air space with Su-30s equipped with only the 30 mm boardgun.....totally useless!
Anyway, found the photos of it, KRI R.E. Martadinata 331 with the weapon installation points of the MM40 Block 3, VL Mica and Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS covered.
DEFENSE STUDIES: Indonesia Begins Installation of Millennium Gun, VL MICA on Lead Martadinata Frigate
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Indonesia leans towards Iver Huitfeldt class for frigate acquisition | Jane's 360
Janes have tracked down an interesting rumour:
Janes have tracked down an interesting rumour:
This will also be of interest to the UK thread, where the RN is considering a variant of the Iver Huitfeldt class for their Type 31. Also New Zealand, where the Type 31 may be a contender to replace the existing ANZAC frigates in the late 2020s.
Just to keep the acronym soup a bit clearer, it should be HADR - Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief
It's just I'm getting too old to be translating all the time. Every time I trip over it, it jars my back
oldsig