Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

Feanor

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A new cool-looking 8x8 platform for different kinds of air-defence systems.
Also amphibious, so you can say its the perfect replacement for systems like the 9K33 Osa.

Except the replacement for the Osa is the Tor and it's land forces variant is tracked. There is a wheeled Tor but so far it's been export only.
 

Feanor

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An accident took place at Kapustin Yar, with a Konkurs ATGM hitting the side of a T-90A tank in training, due to mistaken target ID. The tank took damage but no penetration occurred.

 

ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
An accident took place at Kapustin Yar, with a Konkurs ATGM hitting the side of a T-90A tank in training, due to mistaken target ID. The tank took damage but no penetration occurred.

Well that would've made the inside of the tank ring like a bell. I suspect that any chances of future promotion for the AT missile crew and their battery commander have just gone up in flames.
 

Feanor

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Well that would've made the inside of the tank ring like a bell. I suspect that any chances of future promotion for the AT missile crew and their battery commander have just gone up in flames.
It was mounted on a BMP-2, so no battery. Vehicle commander, platoon commander, company and possibly btln commander, are in hot water most likely.
 

ngatimozart

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It was mounted on a BMP-2, so no battery. Vehicle commander, platoon commander, company and possibly btln commander, are in hot water most likely.
The please explains will make for some interesting reading.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
A batch of artillery videos from various MD. Please note Russian artillery regiments and brigades also include an anti-tank btln, a leftover from the days when anti-tank artillery (guns) was grouped with regular artillery. The 4th video shows the super-heavies, 2S4s and 2S7s. The Russian military had 1 btln of each left as a special separate unit, just in case, but in recent years they've upgraded to having two heavy artillery brigades, one in East MD and one in West MD. It's likely that each brigade only has two arty btlns, 1 2S4 and 1 2S7, but with added artillery recon and UAV elements. Note the UAV footage at the end for BDA. It's a hallmark of Russian airforce and arty operations in Syria.

 

Feanor

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So a number of contracts were signed for the ground forces recently.

First off is another batch of T-80BVMs, possible a contract for 62 more. It's likely we will see a total of 200+ of the type over the next 3 years (keep in mind ~70 have already been delivered). Second off is a maintenance and upgrade contract for the BRM-1Ks that are still in service. Numbers are unclear, but the type currently has no replacement. The BRM-3K is a dated prototype, and it doesn't look like we'll see an updated version any time soon.


A better photo of the BMP-1AM from Army-2020.


A new artillery computer has been inducted, the Planshet-A.


A photo of the model for the Marine IFV surfaced at Army-2020 as well. The status of the program is unclear. Some sources indicate that it's not being funded at all (by the state).


A next generation BMPT is planned on the T-14 chassis. This is a very questionable project. As is the BMPT has no place in Russian ORBAT. Given what it carries, in my opinion, there's only one viable place to stick it. Replace the ATGM carriers in Russian anti-tank btlns in Motor-Rifle units with BMPTs. But this would require increasing the ATGM load from 4 missiles to at least 8 (4 on each side). They could even do a Tunguska-like layout and put in 12 missiles. 30mm is also pretty small for an auto-cannon these days. Given the giant MBT chassis, ideally, they should put in two 57mm guns, one S-60 derivative, high-velocity, firing AP mainly, for dealing with current and future light armor targets (or even the side armor of most MBTs), the other the LShO-57 for lobbing 57mm HE-FRAG over low cover and into windows. As is having a whole arty-btln of dedicated ATGMs carriers is overkill, and this would allow the robust anti-tank capability to be retained while adding additional fire-support capabilities, and making the BMPT concept at least somewhat relevant. But of course this is just my pipe-dream. As it stands, the conversations still wander circles around reinforcing MBT btlns with platoons or companies of dedicated fire-support vehicles on MBT chassis.


124 upgraded BMP-2s are planned for delivery over the next 2 years. This is a modest number of 60+ per year. However the source is fuzzy on the specifications. This will obviously be the Berezhok upgrade, but possibly with the additional armor as well (up until now they've just been upgrading the turret).


Photos of the information booklets on the Floks and Malva SP arty pieces from Army-2020. The fact that the Malva was even produced raises serious questions about the future of the Coalistiya program, especially the wheeled version.


A special version of the Pantsyr is being prepared for ground-forces air defense brigades to accompany the S-300V4 in a manner similar to the VKS PVO brigades. A tracked version is being considered, and it will be the new Panstyr-SM, not the current S1.


A gigantic overview of the entire Russian tank forces. If I have time, emphasis on the "if", I will endeavor to translated the post in its entirety. Credit of course goes to the original blogger for this spectacular piece of work.


A photo has surfaced, allegedly a recent one, of the T-14 assembly taking place at UVZ. You can partially see the turret without it's light-armor covering. Whether this indicates progress in the program is up for debate.

 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Found this Video on Caucascus 2020 Army Meet exercises. It's seems quite massive exercises. Something that I see the exercise will be more on Russia-China geopolitical massages. With Belarus shown it's still strong connection with Russia, and Pakistan and Myanmar shown their more close relationship with China.
 

Feanor

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An interesting and english-language run-down of modern Russian motor-rifle formation, focusing on the company level.

 
Hi @Feanor , I disagree with your take on the BMPT on Armata chassis. Although the BMPT based on T-72 was always just a tank with a different turret, the BMPT based on Armata will not be a redesigned T-14. It's just the T-15, with no changes actually.

In 2015 the T-15 was exhibited with the Epoch turret, with a single 30mm gun and 4 missile tubes.
Later on, the T-15 wa shown with a different turret, using a single 57mm gun and 4 missile tubes.
A T-15 in that configuration, is considered, to the best of my knowledge, to be a BMPT. And it does not require a change of ORBAT, since a T-15 already theoretically exists as an IFV.

They just used the new platform to get an IFV to work as a BMPT when needed, instead of refitting tanks and having no role for them beyond support of tanks.
 

Feanor

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Hi @Feanor , I disagree with your take on the BMPT on Armata chassis. Although the BMPT based on T-72 was always just a tank with a different turret, the BMPT based on Armata will not be a redesigned T-14. It's just the T-15, with no changes actually.

In 2015 the T-15 was exhibited with the Epoch turret, with a single 30mm gun and 4 missile tubes.
Later on, the T-15 wa shown with a different turret, using a single 57mm gun and 4 missile tubes.
A T-15 in that configuration, is considered, to the best of my knowledge, to be a BMPT. And it does not require a change of ORBAT, since a T-15 already theoretically exists as an IFV.

They just used the new platform to get an IFV to work as a BMPT when needed, instead of refitting tanks and having no role for them beyond support of tanks.
I've seen this opinion earlier from Khlopotov, and it looks convincing. Except they've recently made a separate announcement about transplating the BMPT to the Armata chassis. This strongly implies that the T-15 with the AU-220 derivative is not it. In principle I would agree that the role can be filled by T-15s used by the motor-rifle element of tank units or "heavy" formations (2 tank 2 m-r elements). I think UVZ is still trying to push a dedicate MBT-based fire support vehicle. And I think the only place in the ORBAT for something like that is in the anti-tank btlns.
 
A T-15 is already using the chassis of the T-14. They just love calling "Armata" every member of the family in a very confusing way.
The Armata is so far a family of at least 3 fully built vehicles (tank, IFV, ARV), and at least one more variant is confirmed (Koalitsiya, eventually when it loses the T-90 chassis).
 

Feanor

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Staff member
A T-15 is already using the chassis of the T-14. They just love calling "Armata" every member of the family in a very confusing way.
The Armata is so far a family of at least 3 fully built vehicles (tank, IFV, ARV), and at least one more variant is confirmed (Koalitsiya, eventually when it loses the T-90 chassis).
To avoid any confusion, Armata is the OKR, not the vehicle. When I say the Armata chassis I mean the chassis that the T-14 and T-15 have in common. I think, based on the statement made, that some sort of non-IFV Armata-chassis based fire support vehicle is still in the works by UVZ. It may be a transplant of the Burevestnik module used by the current BMPT onto a T-14. It may be something new entirely.

While on the subject, I hope they ditch the Ataka on the AU-220 and put in Kornet. And 4 of them, not 2.
 
To the best of my knowledge, Burevestnik is a research institute within UVZ, specializing mostly in turrets. Did you mean by a chance the AU-220M Baikal turret?
If so, the end-game seems to be 57mm armament plus Ataka missiles and that's confirmed in the article you linked. IIRC they even talked, publicly, about the T-15 being a sort of Terminator 3. Or that's the vibe I got when I surfed the Otvaga forum.

UVZoften talk about vehicles that were already presented years ago as if they're in some early stage of development, for the hype, neglecting that they're parading them in every chance.

Nonetheless, the entire BMPT implementation, and concept as an independent vehicle, is foolish. Especially the 5-man version on the T-72. But the Russian MoD has no shortage of foolish decisions, more often than not caving to the wishes of the arms industry just to keep them employed, or to make sales, even if it means buying utterly useless weapons, or spending double on one system.
 

OPSSG

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In 2015 the T-15 was exhibited with the Epoch turret, with a single 30mm gun and 4 missile tubes.

Later on, the T-15 wa shown with a different turret, using a single 57mm gun and 4 missile tubes.
I am just wondering how important is missiles in a next gen gun turret of a tank?

Is the 57mm gun an evolutionary dead end?
 
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I am just wondering how important is missiles in a next gen gun turret of a tank?

Is the 57mm gun an evolutionary dead end?
The T-15 or any derivative of it, is neither a tank nor next gen.
For an IFV, an ATGM is a very good addition because it allows it to reach places its main cannot cannot (still within LoS), and are its main defense against heavily armored targets.

The 57mm is not a dead end IF made with improved, longer rounds and a longer chamber than existing S-60 guns. They can, with APFSDS, give it some overmatch against most western IFVs, and improved capabilities against airborne targets as well as in urban areas.

For similar reasons the US is shifting towards 50mm and some are looking at 35mm which can be upgraded to 50mm.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
I am just wondering how important is missiles in a next gen gun turret of a tank?

Is the 57mm gun an evolutionary dead end?
Russia thinks its important enough to run OKR Sokol, for a future barrel-fired ATGM with fire and forget capabilities. And NLOS capabilities were mentioned by @Big_Zucchini in our next-gen MBT thread. Presumably those would involve a missile.

EDIT: Russia's current 57mm options rose out of the failure of the project for a 45mm autocannon with telescoping ammo.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
To the best of my knowledge, Burevestnik is a research institute within UVZ, specializing mostly in turrets. Did you mean by a chance the AU-220M Baikal turret?
If so, the end-game seems to be 57mm armament plus Ataka missiles and that's confirmed in the article you linked. IIRC they even talked, publicly, about the T-15 being a sort of Terminator 3. Or that's the vibe I got when I surfed the Otvaga forum.

UVZoften talk about vehicles that were already presented years ago as if they're in some early stage of development, for the hype, neglecting that they're parading them in every chance.

Nonetheless, the entire BMPT implementation, and concept as an independent vehicle, is foolish. Especially the 5-man version on the T-72. But the Russian MoD has no shortage of foolish decisions, more often than not caving to the wishes of the arms industry just to keep them employed, or to make sales, even if it means buying utterly useless weapons, or spending double on one system.
Maybe. But the announcement they made sounded like they're planning a separate system in the future, and with a new name. Because allegedly the "Terminator" sounds too foreign. I guess we will see. If they do plan for a separate system, then I think the only place in the ORBAT for a system like this is in the anti-tank btlns, but of course with an increased missile load.

And yes, the current T-15 turret with the high-velocity 57mm is a derivative of the AU-220 Baikal. Burevestnik is also responsible for the twin-30mm 4XAtaka turrent currently shown on the BMPT. We may yet see that turret on the T-14 or T-15 chassis.

The T-15 or any derivative of it, is neither a tank nor next gen.
For an IFV, an ATGM is a very good addition because it allows it to reach places its main cannot cannot (still within LoS), and are its main defense against heavily armored targets.

The 57mm is not a dead end IF made with improved, longer rounds and a longer chamber than existing S-60 guns. They can, with APFSDS, give it some overmatch against most western IFVs, and improved capabilities against airborne targets as well as in urban areas.

For similar reasons the US is shifting towards 50mm and some are looking at 35mm which can be upgraded to 50mm.
But is the current AU-220 using longer rounds? And what about the Epokha? A low-velocity 57mm auto-cannon.
 
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Do Russian armored brigadeshave anti tank battalions?
I don't see much sense in attaching anti tank units to inherently armored units, rather to light troops. The BMPT is supposed to escort tanks in urban areas, and not much else.

What's odd is that in Israel, perhaps by misunderstanding of statements or not, there is some notion in a local forum and even some media, that there are plans for a Carmel-derived medium vehicle with a medium cannon as a replacement for some tanks and no troop transport capability. I really hope that's not true. The BMPT IMO should not become operational in any form, at least a manned one.
 
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