Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

Haavarla

Active Member
There is a unconfirmed report that MoD has issued a LIRP batch of 50-60 T-14's.
That is forward to 2022'ish.
So that leaves roughly 12 units a year. Don't know how that is divided across the different T-14..

But if this is true, then the T-14's may have a lot of test points left to do before the final products are ready.

They probably produce 12 MBT, test it a years, then make improvements on the next 12 units and so on.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is a unconfirmed report that MoD has issued a LIRP batch of 50-60 T-14's.
That is forward to 2022'ish.
So that leaves roughly 12 units a year. Don't know how that is divided across the different T-14..

But if this is true, then the T-14's may have a lot of test points left to do before the final products are ready.

They probably produce 12 MBT, test it a years, then make improvements on the next 12 units and so on.
There is allegedly a current contract for about 100 vehicles on the Armata platform to be delivered by 2019. So if ~60 (62 would be two tank btlns) are T-14, and another 32 are T-15s, with maybe 10 ARVs thrown in, it fits well with the current information. It might be that the contract was extended out from 2019 to 2022. Or it might be just a strange rumor. Where did you come across this?
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Armata APS

My opinion answer is yes, it will have an effect on top down ATGMs.

The missile is basically a thin skinned tube of electronics, charge(S), and propellant. The Afganit system uses AESA radars to detect incoming attacks then discharges a shotgun like charge in the direction of the incoming attack to destroy the incoming threat. ATGMs are slow and soft skinned and vulnerable to this.
That said, other than Russian propaganda there is no real Intel in the system which on paper and in video appears to work well. The IDF has fielded Trophy successfully for years on the Merkava. (US Army has been testing Trophy and a Raytheon APS)
The article does go on the state that these systems are primarily for ATGM/RPG defense A DU Sabot round traveling at 10x the speed of an ATGM may be a different story, but the ERA will assist there.


http://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...pt_uranium_tank_ammunition_tass_11012163.html
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Experiments with light brigades continue in Russia, with the new 30th Motor-Rifles using un-armored pickup trucks as standard transport for one of it's btlns, and another on BTR-82A. The brigade itself is a newly formed formation and so far is only getting 1 arty btln, and 2 infantry btlns.

Репортаж о новой 30-й гвардейÑкой мотоÑтрелковой бригаде в Самаре. - Коллекционер баÑнов

Meanwhile in South MD, a new artillery bde is formed, the 227th. It's also, allegedly, going to be getting both the new Uragan-1M and 2S35 Coalitsiya-SV systems.

ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð°Ñ 227-Ñ Ð°Ñ€Ñ‚Ð¸Ð»Ð»ÐµÑ€Ð¸Ð¹ÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ð±Ñ€Ð¸Ð³Ð°Ð´Ð° в Майкопе - Коллекционер баÑнов

Finally, Burevestnik presents some new unmanned combat modules to government officials. Nothing particularly remarkable. The bigger one with the 30mm 2A42 is meant for Tigr-M anfun-K 4X4 vehicles.

Ðовые образцы Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¶Ð¸Ñ , разработки ЦÐИИ "БуревеÑтник" - Коллекционер баÑнов
 
Regarding where they are on the MBT of the armata family, I strongly suspect the turret and sensors as shown are stop-gaps. I went to Russia to see some of these items up-close recently (along with the first time the new arctic sams were uncovered, the bumerang, kurganets, rakushka etc), and looking at my images and in person, it does look like the cavity-covering panels are there for show on the demonstration models/ones shown. In person, looking from close in person, the panels and sensors seemed off. The same panels next to the main gun were not identical in placement, comparing a couple of the MBT side by side.

As an aside, when it is not parade, but quiet, and you hear them start up, and alongside the t72b3m, etc, they are particularly loud and have a sound that doesn't come across in video I found. Very impressive sound of power, but they are very loud compared to the t72, and entirely different sound. Only the arctic sp sams dwarfed their sound. The latter are very very loud indeed though.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Russian Army to Be Subordinated to the National Guard in a Crisis In the Russian context, it makes sense. Also, this will make it more difficult to mutiny in the regular Army. I'm sure China has similar arrangements. There, the PLA belongs to the CCP, not the state.
Read carefully what it actually says. It talks about potentially being able to use the MoD units to back up the National Guard units, primarily in counter-terror operations.

"By decision of the President of the Russian Federation, tactical formations and military units of the Armed forces of the Russian Federation, other military formations and organs can be transferred to the operational control of the commander of the district to perform the tasks assigned to the troops of the National Guard"
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Yes, "if the need arises". Given the size of the country and the relative sizes of NG & regular Army + other formations, in a medium/major crisis or disaster the probability of it being invoked is close to 100%. In 1 video, Rogozin said that for adequate defense, the RF needs to have 600M population. It was 143.4-146.5M in 2016, or 4 times less. So, each soldier must fight as 4. So Much Land, Too Few Russians
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Feanor,

Would be interested in hearing your personal take on this. Do you think the writer is putting too much into the deployment of Iskanders in the Eastern Military District? Is the deployment merely a defensive measure and part of an overall policy of improving the capabilities of units in the region or is it really intended as a deterrent to China?

Why Is Russia Aiming Missiles at China? | The Diplomat
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor,

Would be interested in hearing your personal take on this. Do you think the writer is putting too much into the deployment of Iskanders in the Eastern Military District? Is the deployment merely a defensive measure and part of an overall policy of improving the capabilities of units in the region or is it really intended as a deterrent to China?

Why Is Russia Aiming Missiles at China? | The Diplomat
The geography says it all. Also almost the entire armed forces have been re-armed with the Iskander. If one wants to make a case of Russian preparations in case of Chinese invasion, one should look at the Armies deployed there. That having been said, Russia would be remiss not to prepare for the contingency of war with China.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Initial reports of T14 production

Looks like intitial reports point at a goal of 100 new T14s by 2020.

Yury Borisov said at the Army-2017 tradeshow in Kubinka—outside Moscow—according to the TASS news agency[3]. “We have a contract for 100 units that will be supplied before 2020.”

NATO is already looking at the T14 as a potential Peer (or better) vehicle Interesting to see the Germans increase numbers of the 2A6, the US looking at a Brigade of APS fielding Testing results to be announced this quarter.



Russia Announces How Many Deadly T-14 Armata Tanks it Will Build
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Looks like intitial reports point at a goal of 100 new T14s by 2020.

Yury Borisov said at the Army-2017 tradeshow in Kubinka—outside Moscow—according to the TASS news agency[3]. “We have a contract for 100 units that will be supplied before 2020.”

NATO is already looking at the T14 as a potential Peer (or better) vehicle Interesting to see the Germans increase numbers of the 2A6, the US looking at a Brigade of APS fielding Testing results to be announced this quarter.



Russia Announces How Many Deadly T-14 Armata Tanks it Will Build
This isn't new. The contract was signed a while back for 100 tanks in 2019. Which can also be stated as 100 tanks by 2020.

The real news was that experimental exploitation of the type had not yet begun and was only slated for next year. This likely means that state trials will complete next year but the first batch of tanks will be serving prior to completion of experimental exploitation. Which of course isn't new, the Su-34 was past state trials and in active service long before experimental exploitation was actually completed.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Army 2017 Updates.

A lot has come to light during and shortly after this large forum so here's a brief digest of what I found significant. A total of a 170 bln roubles (~2.7 bln USD and at Russian prices) is nothing to scoff at, as it includes the first btln set of T-90M tanks (it looks like they aren't converting existing T-90As but instead buying new ones, which raises a legitimate question, WTF? What about cancelling T-90 buys because of the upcoming T-14?), 10 BMPT, BMP-3 with the new Epoha module, two brigades of Iskander missiles (though hardly newsworthy, Iskander buys are just a continuing re-armament pattern), arctic Kamaz trucks, and others.

ÐрмиÑ-2017: 26 контрактов и допÑоглашений, 170 млрд руб.: prokhor_tebin

10 Coalition-SV howitzers have been ordered in addition to the 2 batches already delivered.

Gur Khan attacks!: Минобороны закупило опытную партию из 10 новейших гаубиц «ÐšÐ¾Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ñ†Ð¸Ñ-СВ»

13 BMP-3 chassis with the new Epoha (Epoch) modules have been ordered as well. It appears a variation on the Bumerang-BM module. It will carry a new 57mm cannon, a 7.62 MG, 4 Kornet ATGMs and a new Bulat missile (a low-caliber guided missile for light armor).

Gur Khan attacks!: Первые 13 БМП Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²ÐµÐ¹ÑˆÐ¸Ð¼ боевым модулем "Эпоха" поÑтупÑÑ‚ в войÑка

VPK (the owner of the AMZ factory) presented their newest vehicles, noteworthy is the Tigr-M with a 30mm cannon module, and the BTR-87, publicly presented, with Kornet ATMGs on the sides of the same 30mm module used by current BTR-82As. Interestingly enough it was mentioned that the BTR-82A would start getting thermals in 2019, which might be part of an upgrade to the module, to include those same Kornet ATGMs.

Техника «Военно-промышленной компании» - Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½

2S42 Lotos is the new SP Arty for the VDV, this time in 120mm. The 152mm Zauralets for the VDV has been cancelled (likely due to the impossiblity of cramming a full size heavy SP Arty system onto the chassis of an airdroppable IFV. We're looking at the replacement for the Nona-S.

120-мм ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ñ…Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð°Ñ€Ñ‚Ð¸Ð»Ð»ÐµÑ€Ð¸Ð¹ÑÐºÐ°Ñ ÑиÑтема 2С42 по ОКР "ЛотоÑ" - bmpd

SAMUM is a new Tigr-M based light armor vehicle with a ZU-23-2 in the back instead of a passenger compartment. It looks like a professionally designed version of the technicals so popular in the Syrian war.

Легкий гантрак Ñ Ñ€Ð¾Ð³Ð°Ñ‚ÐºÐ¾Ð¹: yuripasholok

2S38 Derivatsiya is a new SP AAA with a 57mm gun. It's presented here on a BMP-3 chassis, likely due to delays of the Kurganets. I'm willing to bet eventually an upgrade version will be offered with missiles on the sides of the module, like the Tunguska and Pantsyr. Which raises questions about why the first variant doesn't have them. This isn't exactly new territory for Russia.

Самоходный зенитный артиллерийÑкий ÐºÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐºÑ Ð¿Ð¾ ОКР "ДеривациÑ-ПВО" Ñ Ð±Ð¾ÐµÐ²Ð¾Ð¹ машиной 2С38 - bmpd
БМП-3 Ñ Ð¼Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ñ‹Ð¼ модулем Ñ 57 мм пушкой «ДеривациÑ-ПВО» - Andrei-bt

The new Tayfun-VDV was also shown. It's a 4X4 MRAP, also with a 30mm module. It's likely this project is competing with the Tigr-M with the 30mm module. The Tigr is from VPK while the Tayfun is from Kamaz. The modules are different.

Внутри бронированного Ð°Ð²Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¼Ð¾Ð±Ð¸Ð»Ñ Ðš-4386 "Тайфун-ВДВ" ("РоÑомаха") - bmpd

A new mid-range SAM called Ermak is being developed, before the current midrange SAMs (yes two of them Buk-M3 and S-350) have even been deployed in any significant quantities.

Концепт новой ЗРС Ñредней и малой дальноÑти «Ермак» - nortwolf_sam

One btln set of T-90M tanks and 10 BMPTs, along with overhauls for T-72/80/90 tanks.

Заключение контрактов на закупку МиниÑтерÑтвом обороны РоÑÑии танков Т-90Ðœ и боевых машин БМПТ - bmpd

Two new Iskander brigade sets have been ordered.

Контракт на е° бригадных комплекта оперативно-тактичеÑких ракетных комплекÑов «ИÑкандер-М» - bmpd

The new Pantsyr-SM was at the forum, with a new 4-missile packet carrying smaller, cheaper missiles for anti-UAV and anti-Grad missile use.

Модифицированный зенитный ракетно-пушечный ÐºÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐºÑ "Панцирь-СМ" - bmpd

New smaller PGMs have been shown with UAV use in mind, and it's likely the new Orion drone will be their first unnamed carrier.

Ðвиационные ÑредÑтва Ð¿Ð¾Ñ€Ð°Ð¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð±ÐµÑпилотных летательных аппаратов - bmpd

The S-500 and Antey-4000 (likely an upgrade of the Antey-2500 which is the export version of the S-300V4) were displayed at Army-2017 though not publicly.

https://iz.ru/634425/dmitrii-litovk...oennye-pokazhut-vozdushno-kosmicheskii-shchit
 

Strannik

Member
Army 2017 Updates.
it looks like they aren't converting existing T-90As but instead buying new ones, which raises a legitimate question, WTF? What about cancelling T-90 buys because of the upcoming T-14?)...
I suspect it is logical result of the predicate with two parameters.

First, Syria effect. T90A showed itself surprisingly well. In spite of numerous hits no losses due to armour penetration were recorded, in fact it would be no losses at all, if not for the single case when tank was abandoned by cru and captured by enemy.

Second, T-14 is work in progress. How far did the work progressed? Who knows.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I suspect it is logical result of the predicate with two parameters.

First, Syria effect. T90A showed itself surprisingly well. In spite of numerous hits no losses due to armour penetration were recorded, in fact it would be no losses at all, if not for the single case when tank was abandoned by cru and captured by enemy.

Second, T-14 is work in progress. How far did the work progressed? Who knows.
T-90A showed itself well but there was nothing surprising about that. It was a good tank to begin with. It's not clear why they're buying a small batch of new T-90M when T-14 purchases are only 2 years away. Even if they buy bigger batches the next 2 years, we're still looking at what, a couple hundred T-90Ms? In a fleet of thousands of tanks? After taking a 6 year hiatus from buying the T-90A, in the name of "Armata coming any minute now"? Upgrading the existing fleet makes sense. Especially those baseline T-90s from the early 1990's sitting at Central Storage. You'd be returning those tanks to service, and using them as a launching point for the upgrade program without leaving any active units without their tanks. Buying new ones without an upgrade program for the existing fleet only makes sense if T-14 buys are getting pushed back again, past 2020 this time. And at the recent forum they restated that they have a contract for T-14 deliveries, 100 tanks to be completed "by 2020". I.e. in 2019. That's deliveries in less then 2 years (remember we're in Sep. of 2017 now). And UVZ has stated that they've completed re-tooling for T-14 production. In fact they've been dropping hints that they're ready, and the MoD is the one delaying.
 

Strannik

Member
T-90A showed itself well but there was nothing surprising about that. It was a good tank to begin with...
I agree, But, you could not possibly know for sure, until it is battle-tested on real battlefield against modern western supplied antitank gear. Who, but specialists with intimate knowledge about the topic can be sure otherwise.
Plus, western reviews, typically, would say :

"It just modernisation of hopelessly out-dated T72 family, which is so bad, it cannot possibly come even close to modern wester tanks."

And look how wrong they all were :).

.. Buying new ones without an upgrade program for the existing fleet only makes sense if T-14 buys are getting pushed back again, past 2020 ..
That is unless one have a plan to, also, sell lots of T90M - variation of tested and tried T90A , incorporating solutions for problems highlighted by Syrian deployment.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Another piece of news, not so good, out of Army 2017. It appears that the T-80 contract is not just for overhauls but also for a "deep modernization" including the installation of the Sosna-U. I suspect we're looking at a T-72B3-like upgrade for the T-80 fleet, which suggests that the type will remain in service for quite some time. On the one hand the type certainly needs upgrading, on the other hand one would have thought that they'd be first to go in the name of reducing the tank types. I suspect this, and the T-90M buys are indications that the T-14 will either be purchased at a slower pace then initially planned or is further from serial production.

https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/598022.html
ОмÑкий «летающий» танк Т-80 готовÑÑ‚ Ð´Ð»Ñ ÑлƒÐ¶Ð±Ñ‹ в Ðрктике
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It really looks like the new AFVs (not only T-14) are further away from real serial production as expected. Probsbly due to a mix of them still needing development time and the army realizing that they cost a real fortune compared to purchasing modern versions of the current designs as well as upgrading the existing fleet.

As you said Feanor I still don't get why the early production T-90s aren'z higher on the upgrade list. Maybe they are seriously defective due to them being build in the turbulent '90s with a rather questionable quality control?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It really looks like the new AFVs (not only T-14) are further away from real serial production as expected. Probsbly due to a mix of them still needing development time and the army realizing that they cost a real fortune compared to purchasing modern versions of the current designs as well as upgrading the existing fleet.
It's a curious situation. It appears that the Coalition-SV howitzer is the furthest along, with the T-14/15/16 family close behind. The light armor, meanwhile, is further behind. Even so, I'm not sure how big the buys can be in principle. A couple of hundred vehicles a year, tops, for the MBT. I think we can expect serial production of the SP Arty, MBT, H-IFV, and ARV, around 2019, with the medium wheels and tracks coming 2021-2022. Assuming nothing earth-shattering comes before then.

As you said Feanor I still don't get why the early production T-90s aren'z higher on the upgrade list. Maybe they are seriously defective due to them being build in the turbulent '90s with a rather questionable quality control?
Not defective enough to prevent them from being donated to the Syrians to represent the T-90 in combat. And they've represented well. It's even stranger when you consider that they initially announced that they were going to do exactly that.
 
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