Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

Underway

Active Member
Was the change in:
  • main gun mk45
  • single RAM
  • Lionfish RWS
Communicated before?

I'm not that surprised at the main gun the automation takes up significant space. Single RAM launcher and its location is interesting. The mysterbox I would guess at Nulka or similar, but apparently not.

Australia significantly upsized its design to allow its radar, multiple CIWS, 16 naval launchers, 32 VLS, etc. The Canadian mast looks bigger than what the UK is fitting so that may have eaten into the top weight margin for such systems.
The main gun change was not "communicated" but known by defence watchers and such as they noticed the Leonardo contract was canceled. Both the Germans and Dutch are having issues with the Leonardo 127mm integration. Much less integration risk.

Also some media sources are stating that there is some space for an extra 8 VLS. I am guessing here but perhaps the change in main gun allows more room (the Leonardo 127mm has a revolver/drum loading system that takes up more space below decks than the Mk45). As the ship is ASW focused they are still discussing whether to add the 8 now or wait until the first three are built and re-evaluate (True North Strategic Review - Substack)

Main RAM position is to increase arcs and likely keep all the exhaust effluent away from intakes and other important equipment. The expected/predicted position by many of us armchair ship designers was for the RAM was to be where the UK is placing their CIWS, midships on the breezeway beside the main stack. That's directly beside the air intakes for the main GT. Probably not ideal to pull missile exhaust chemicals into the GT if you can avoid it! So moving the RAM atop the hangar with better arcs port and stbd is a good solution. Putting it port side avoids any challenges (maint, safety, heat, exhaust particle damage etc...) with it being directly beside Diesel exhaust stacks (on the stbd side of the hangar).

The NSM on the stbd side I suspect/suppose is to counteract some of the RAM weight/stability effects and keep the two missile type operations from damaging each other.

Since you posted this, it has been confirmed that the "mystery boxes of doom" are LEED launchers on the port/stbd side amidships. I count 18 (another angle of the ship model shows them mirrored on each side).

LEED - Long Endurance Electronic Decoy - essentially a larger longer endurance Nulka with more EW options (possibly including IR).

My favourite part of the new model is the mast design. They've taken the cone head and converted it to what looks like a bit like a dorsal fin (shark fin mast!) as its longer than wide. As cool as that looks the important part is that they seem to have managed to make it an integrated mast, without having to use a dedicated comms masts (like the T26 and Hunter class). The ae that don't fit on that mast are distributed.
The removal of the ExLS has allowed them to mount HF whip antenna where it used to be as well as VHF, UHF etc.. antennae on the hangar top below the RAM arcs.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Also some media sources are stating that there is some space for an extra 8 VLS. I am guessing here but perhaps the change in main gun allows more room (the Leonardo 127mm has a revolver/drum loading system that takes up more space below decks than the Mk45). As the ship is ASW focused they are still discussing whether to add the 8 now or wait until the first three are built and re-evaluate (True North Strategic Review - Substack)
Have a look at the images contained in the links below:

RIVER CLASS Destroyer

Type 26 Frigate

If you look at the upper deck area around the VLS, you can see T26 has x2 missile silo's, x1 in front of the other, While the RCD only has the AFT set up, so while there's space that used to be a magazine / silo, you can bet your bottom dollar that the RCN / ship designers are already utilising that space for something else. KNOWING what AGEIS is like, it will likely mean that there;s a computer room, or a power distribution room, as the system is power hungry.

From memory the UK orientates its VLS launchers 'differently; from the preferred US layout & it may be possible to do this & 'incorporate' an extra x8 cells. But most missile system require a hefty base / seat to accept the modules & I think that IF you were designing the ship from scratch you could do this. I think it's a bit to late for RCD. Remember the launchers are circa x3 ship decks high( Mk41 VLS Naval Launcher).

Finally, the launcher modules take up 2/3rds of the width of the ship in the area where the ship is still dealing with the 'bow-flare', as it transitions to the maximum beam of the ship, so by putting in x4 modules, how much actual space would there be for passageways / cable & electrical routing / HVAC / Pipework, noting that Magazine design rules pretty much stop you from running ANYTHING thru the compartment, unless it services the missile silo ?

Batch #2 would need a radical redesign & then questions of following the Arleigh-Burke design (x1 launcher FWd, x1 Aft, with x2 modules in each), which in turn would logically point to losing the Mission bay capability from the design, effectively mean a 'brand new' ship design, ALL at great additional costs...

SMALL incremental changes between batches makes sense, radical redesign kills your overall capital budget / reduces the number of ships you can actually buy...
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If the Hunter does indeed have 32 Mk 41cells, from the various depictions it looks like they are in four blocks abreast across the ship. See the overhead in this Navy Lookout article: Adding firepower to the Type 26 Frigate - Navy Lookout

Presumably the RCD as currently planned has 3. Given the size and weight of the Mk 41 blocks (they would need to be symmetrical about the centreline), the only use of the additional space would seem to be for wider passageways, so it might certainly be possible. However, it seems an unlikely sort of mod to be retrofitted.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
SMALL incremental changes between batches makes sense, radical redesign kills your overall capital budget / reduces the number of ships you can actually buy...
If I was Canada I would be trying to minimise large changes on the first batch of ships. It would be more important to get the construction of the ships started and in the water. Canada intends to build a reasonable number, and 24 VLS isn't terrible and more than serviceable, if they want to evolve the design, different weapons, different configurations, then future batches it may be better to bundle together as the evolution to do that. If they want to do that, there is already an Type 26 partner that is going down that road, so might be best to learn from Australia's experience, and if Canada then wants to shift to the hull to Australian baseline, it would have been de-risked, proven design by then.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While that is true, the increase of beam in the an Australian ships has more to do with stability and the mast structure than the VLS; the standard design handle 32.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
While that is true, the increase of beam in the an Australian ships has more to do with stability and the mast structure than the VLS; the standard design handle 32.
I would presume if Canada wanted more VLS and a more air defence capability, they may look at enhanced radar. Having the Hunter hull there, de-risked would be awfully attractive. There would be an existing user, upgrade path, intergration, all done. AU-UK-CA would happily share radar capability, the Canadians are already buying JORN.

A few more missiles doesn't really change the game. 8 more VLS isn't going to blow China/Russia out of the water.

Australia already has proposals for a lot more than 32 VLS, a potentially much more capable radar. But still of the same basic platform, training pipelines etc. If they had 6 of the 15 in a configuration like that it would give them lots of options.

I imagine the issue with small number of VLS is a bigger issue when large VLS cells become popular. G-VLS is 34" compared to 25" mk41 VLS.
 

Underway

Active Member
I would presume if Canada wanted more VLS and a more air defence capability, they may look at enhanced radar. Having the Hunter hull there, de-risked would be awfully attractive. There would be an existing user, upgrade path, intergration, all done. AU-UK-CA would happily share radar capability, the Canadians are already buying JORN.

A few more missiles doesn't really change the game. 8 more VLS isn't going to blow China/Russia out of the water.

Australia already has proposals for a lot more than 32 VLS, a potentially much more capable radar. But still of the same basic platform, training pipelines etc. If they had 6 of the 15 in a configuration like that it would give them lots of options.

I imagine the issue with small number of VLS is a bigger issue when large VLS cells become popular. G-VLS is 34" compared to 25" mk41 VLS.
Given that Spy 7 works on adding more T/R modules to make a larger radar, its possible in the future to change the size of those arrays and increase radar output. Hunter sized hull would likely be needed, and Australian expertise would be valuable. I love that these three allies (now four with Norway) can all share information.

If the Hunter does indeed have 32 Mk 41cells, from the various depictions it looks like they are in four blocks abreast across the ship. See the overhead in this Navy Lookout article: Adding firepower to the Type 26 Frigate - Navy Lookout

Presumably the RCD as currently planned has 3. Given the size and weight of the Mk 41 blocks (they would need to be symmetrical about the centreline), the only use of the additional space would seem to be for wider passageways, so it might certainly be possible. However, it seems an unlikely sort of mod to be retrofitted.
There is a different (sort of) option. The added Mk41's don't have to be strike length. They could be tactical length. That size takes SM2, ESSM quad packed just fine, is about 1m shorter and is also lighter. Making those extra 8 Mk41's the go to for the ESSM quad packed (32 missiles total) would probably be the standard loadout for self defence, and the remaining 24 would be for mission specific missiles. You would place them in front of the the current centerline 8 cell VLS.
 
Prime Minister Carney spoke recently that the final choice for the winner of the CPSP will be made by the end of 2026 Q2, perhaps around May or June this year. CANSEC 2026 is within this period and a substantial stage, perhaps we will see the announcement there.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Prime Minister Carney spoke recently that the final choice for the winner of the CPSP will be made by the end of 2026 Q2, perhaps around May or June this year. CANSEC 2026 is within this period and a substantial stage, perhaps we will see the announcement there.
$150-$200 per barrel oil could postpone many anticipated programs.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I very much doubt that, these programs need to be confirmed now to meet timelines otherwise the RCN and national defence as a whole will be in a very dismal position.
The DND programs are absolutely needed and should have been under way much earlier! If economic conditions go for a $hit the LPC/NDP will move money to stuff that gives them electoral advantage. Defence is not a priority for much of our pathetic bleeding heart, multicultural, and leftist elites that influence the easily manipulated electorate.
 
The DND programs are absolutely needed and should have been under way much earlier! If economic conditions go for a $hit the LPC/NDP will move money to stuff that gives them electoral advantage. Defence is not a priority for much of our pathetic bleeding heart, multicultural, and leftist elites that influence the easily manipulated electorate.
I don't think this sort of divisive and openly political rhetoric is very helpful to the overall discussion, especially when the current Government has changed course from prior iterations and embraced substantial defence spending. It is very easy to point fingers at both large political parties for bending to economic and political conditions to absolutely stab required defence spending in the back, the Conservatives are just as guilty or even more so given their time in office.

Canadians seem to realize the geopolitical situation that we find ourselves in and support the large ongoing increases to defence spending. I don't see that changing even if further economic hardship comes up, it would be an incredibly difficult climbdown for a Government that is closer to a Conservative Government of old than the previous Liberal Government.

These programs are long term, interrupting or canceling them will effectively cripple our defensive capability and destroy any remaining political capital with our allies.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I don't think this sort of divisive and openly political rhetoric is very helpful to the overall discussion, especially when the current Government has changed course from prior iterations and embraced substantial defence spending. It is very easy to point fingers at both large political parties for bending to economic and political conditions to absolutely stab required defence spending in the back, the Conservatives are just as guilty or even more so given their time in office.

Canadians seem to realize the geopolitical situation that we find ourselves in and support the large ongoing increases to defence spending. I don't see that changing even if further economic hardship comes up, it would be an incredibly difficult climbdown for a Government that is closer to a Conservative Government of old than the previous Liberal Government.

These programs are long term, interrupting or canceling them will effectively cripple our defensive capability and destroy any remaining political capital with our allies.
You are overly optimistic about pollies and probably the electorate as well. Pollies, (all favours), have winning as a priority. Even pro defence MPs will have a hard time supporting the really big programs in the event of a serious recession caused by the Iran situation and the IOTUS's tariffs. Factoring in junior's 10 years of multi-billion dollar deficits will add to the pain. As for the electorate, defence support is on their radar as necessary right now but the government will have to make hard choices if revenues fall and social program cutbacks or tax increases will erode support IMHO.
 

Underway

Active Member
Starshell Magazine March 26

Lot of interesting information in there, discussions with Commanders of RCN, RNZN, RAN, Indonesian Navy, Pakistan Navy and Norwegian Navy.

Interview with RCN Chief of Naval Capability RAdm Jason Armstrong
Interview with RCN Director of Naval Strategy Captain Rob Watt

Some of the tidbits
- desire move to 4 or 5 Joint Support Ships (AOR's) from the current 2 being built
- Protecteur (JSS1)is a bit behind schedule but Preserver (JSS2) is ahead of schedule
- expect the submarine contract to be announced mid June, and negotiations on the contract to be completed in the Fall.
- Continental Defence Corvette will likely be a light frigate with the focus on range, ice capability and lethality, in the numbers of 8-20, industry day early next year as the project is still undergoing definition
- potential expansion of the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include other yards as demands are expected to increase
- Canada will remain focused on ASW as our prime warfare specialty because that's greatest naval threat to Canadian waters, however RCD will be able to do BMD (cueing vs engagement discussion needs to be had as continental BMD is developed over time)
- main resource constraint is people (no surprise I think for anyone)
- Future At-Sea Sovereignty Training Vessel (FASST-V) will be the Orca replacement and will have the ability to upgrade from training vessels to low end patrol vessels
- AOPS upgrading being looked at, and their roles are expanding beyond traditional patrol to include intelligence gathers and SOF support (we already know they have a passive sonar tail that was trialed for ASW and have mine hunting/clearance diver packages that can be added to them)
 
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Underway

Active Member
1775848586988.png
Looks like the RCN is working on its input to the continental defence plan. 12 corvettes are probably the minimum number (see legend for ships at sea/total number in class). Pulled from Linked In page where they were at a lecture on RCN planning.

My assumption is the circles are basically the approximate areas where the asset can do maritime picture compilation with its various onboard assets (helo, radar, ship patroling around etc...). Though they might just be general graphical circles to demonstrate the concept of what they are trying to communicate (ship sails here to do RMP, sub and AOR help ship stay on station etc....).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Starshell Magazine March 26

Lot of interesting information in there, discussions with Commanders of RCN, RNZN, RAN, Indonesian Navy, Pakistan Navy and Norwegian Navy.

Interview with RCN Chief of Naval Capability RAdm Jason Armstrong
Interview with RCN Director of Naval Strategy Captain Rob Watt

Some of the tidbits
- desire move to 4 or 5 Joint Support Ships (AOR's) from the current 2 being built
- Protecteur (JSS1)is a bit behind schedule but Preserver (JSS2) is ahead of schedule
- expect the submarine contract to be announced mid June, and negotiations on the contract to be completed in the Fall.
- Continental Defence Corvette will likely be a light frigate with the focus on range, ice capability and lethality, in the numbers of 8-20, industry day early next year as the project is still undergoing definition
- potential expansion of the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include other yards as demands are expected to increase
- Canada will remain focused on ASW as our prime warfare specialty because that's greatest naval threat to Canadian waters, however RCD will be able to do BMD (cueing vs engagement discussion needs to be had as continental BMD is developed over time)
- main resource constraint is people (no surprise I think for anyone)
- Future At-Sea Sovereignty Training Vessel (FASST-V) will be the Orca replacement and will have the ability to upgrade from training vessels to low end patrol vessels
- AOPS upgrading being looked at, and their roles are expanding beyond traditional patrol to include intelligence gathers and SOF support (we already know they have a passive sonar tail that was trialed for ASW and have mine hunting/clearance diver packages that can be added to them)
Even if 50% of the tidbits above happen it will a significant increase in capability. I just hope the corvette (light frigate) number isn't a result of a reduced River class number. The AOPS upgrade makes sense. A 6,400 ton ship should have some decent space to add necessary kit upgrades.
 

Underway

Active Member
1776100319655.png

Its a very nice artists interpretation of a CDC there. I have no idea if the artists is a clanker or not but the composite is interesting where they took the inspiration. 35mm Millennium gun, SeaRAM/CIWS astern, integrated mast (Mogami style), SEWIP antenna at the base of the mast etc...

I'm not buying the small but mighty tag though. These won't be "small" ships. I'm thinking it will end up in the 4000 ton range.
 
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OldTex

Well-Known Member
View attachment 54689

Its a very nice artists interpretation of a CDC there. I have no idea if the artists is a clanker or not but the composite is interesting where they took the inspiration. 35mm Millennium gun, SeaRAM/CIWS astern, integrated mast (Mogami style), SEWIP antenna at the base of the mast etc...

I'm not buying the small but mighty tag though. These won't be "small" ships. I'm thinking it will end up in the 4000 ton range.
Just have to wonder why a 35mm gun would be shown as that is more along the lines of what many navies equip their OPVs with. Surely a 40mm or 57mm gun would be more in keeping with the corvette designation.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Just have to wonder why a 35mm gun would be shown as that is more along the lines of what many navies equip their OPVs with. Surely a 40mm or 57mm gun would be more in keeping with the corvette designation.
A 35 mm millennium is better than the De Wolf’s 25 mm. Wouldn’t mind a 57 mm on both classes though.
 
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