Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[the road runner]

Thanks for the explanation and I know this, especially if it's US-made equipment.

BTW, I have a question regarding F-18s Hornets, is Canada buying all the Australian Hornets?

AIR USA will purchase 46 of Australia's classic hornets to fly in an Adversary role in the USA..
Don Kirlin is basically going to have his own private air force

This Man Owns The World's Most Advanced Private Air Force After Buying 46 F/A-18 Hornets

We talked to the owner of Air USA about probably the most incredible private aircraft purchase of all time and the future of his adversary business.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Todjaeger]

From an article I read dated, the purchase is for up to 46 ex-RAAF Hornets. My take is that means the number could be less. Given the sale of ~25 to Canada, and the total of 71 RAAF Hornets (after accounting for attrition) the complete sale would I believe leave none available for use as a gate guard or Australian museum display.

 

[oldsig127]

AIR USA will purchase 46 of Australia's classic hornets to fly in an Adversary role in the USA..
Don Kirlin is basically going to have his own private air force

This Man Owns The World's Most Advanced Private Air Force After Buying 46 F/A-18 Hornets

We talked to the owner of Air USA about probably the most incredible private aircraft purchase of all time and the future of his adversary business.

www.thedrive.com

UP TO 46. In fact, since then there has been an official announcement that nine aircraft will be kept as museum examples, so he'll get no more than 37. My apology for not finding the link, but this has come up so often I'll let someone else do it.

oldsig

Edit...APDR 10 March, and there was a later announcement of a ninth

 

[Bob53]

No , Canada is purchasing upto 25 for replacements and spares. I believe a private air training firm in the US is buying more RAAF Hornets, but the exact number AFAIK has not been determined.

I have to ask though, what advantage would there be for the RAAF to purchase more F/A-18 Super Hornets? Right now there are essentially only three variants available, the single seat -E, the twin seater -F currently in RAAF service, and the SEAD/DEAD version the EA-18G Growler, also in RAAF service.

With the F-35A being a newer, and more all around capable fighter aircraft than the SHornet, which at this point has been an in-service design for 20 years now, there is really only one advantage to operating a mixed fleet of fighters. I am purposefully not referring to the special abilities of the Growler, simply because Australia already has them in service. The sole advantage I see in operating a mixed fleet would be if something catastrophic were to happen which caused a grounding of all Australian F-35A's, then the RAAF would have a second type of fighter which it could press into service while the F-35A grounding issue was resolved.

Otherwise, in terms of aircraft capabilities and service outputs, I see no reason to add any additional units to the RAAF inventory. The one possible exception would be to purchase (or possibly convert) a replacement for the EA-18G which was lost.

Is there a growler replacement is the wings at all.... I thought only replacement currently is another growler

 

[Boagrius]

That was a head scratcher for me as well. I'm not aware of anything out there that would fit the bill as yet. I doubt the USN will be replacing their Growlers until F/A(XX) bears fruit.

 

[hauritz]

That was a head scratcher for me as well. I'm not aware of anything out there that would fit the bill as yet. I doubt the USN will be replacing their Growlers until F/A(XX) bears fruit.

I did read something about the F-35 being modified for SEAD/DEAD

Lockheed to Retrofit F-35s for Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses Role | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin won a $26.7M contract to develop a structural mod for the F-35 to enhance its Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses capability.

www.airforcemag.com

The F-35 has limited SEAD/DEAD but structural modifications would be needed for it to be fitted with new munitions and sensors.
The timing of that project would see the modification applied to lot 14 and 15 aircraft from around 2022. This could fit in nicely with the RAAF plans to replace the Growlers from the late 2020s

 

[Stampede]

Mate, have a look at my post above and have a look at page 57 of the 2020 update. The heading title is Chart 4 - Key Air Domain Investments

You'll see the two separate budget allowances and you'll also see the two separate, but overlapping, timeframes for both of those separate projects.

The first (today to 2030) is the current procurement of 72 F-35A and the second (2025-26 to 2030-31) is the potential 4th Squadron of 28 F-35A or potentially something else (unless something drastic changes I'd think the last 28 airframes is still on the cards).

Cheers,

My take is there will be additional F35's mid to late 2020's.
Will the SHornet soldier on to be a fifth Sqn or just be the transition aircraft Ala post F111 , I'm not sure.
Maybe that final decision is yet to be made?????
Interestingly, a decision not to acquire another two MRTT ( No 8 and 9 ) may suggest four Squadrons of fast air is the limit.

Regards S

 

[pykie]

The Budget figures supplied on all procurement for the ADF is for all up costs to introduce a new capability, generally only about 1/3 is actually for purchasing the system involved, the other 2/3 is for all the ancillary costs of introducing a new system. That will include Trg systems and conversion Trg for both Air and Ground Crews, upgrading Bases, Spare Parts, may also include increasing the number of personnel req to man the Units involved.
If Australia decides to replace the FA-18F with another manned Aircraft anytime in the next 15 years, it will almost certainly be F-35As.

Is that really the best option?

They have a slight capability gap in air superiority with some of the top 4th gen fighters in terms of perfomance (not tech).

Their $/hr cost is enormous and a lot of countries are looking to low cost planes to fill some capabilities, especially less critical missions in which you aren't risking a $150m aircraft and sustaining it's enormous running costs.

The USA's replacement of the A-10 for their light attack support plane is an example slated to fill the less critical mission requirements - the Super Tucano or AT-6 Wolverine as possible examples in the race for that contract.

The F-35 costs around $34,000 per flight hour vs the Super Tucano of $1,000/hr. Very different planes obviously. But I'm not sure a one stop shop at $34,000 an hour is the way to go for all of the RAAF's requirements.


We may be possibly looking at unmanned in the next decade(s) to fill this capability however.

In terms of the air superiority factor, it seems if we are stripping the FA/18's from the RAAF, it's unlikely we would look at another 4th gen fighter, however again, is going F-35 with a small fleet of Super Hornets the way to go?

@pykie Sources please for your costs information. Don't even start the F-35 argument. We've heard it all before and we aren't having it regurgitated again. Read back through this thread and the F-35 threads which will tell you all that you need or want to know. You will find them at the start of the Air Force & Aviation Forum. Also take your time to read the Airpower 101 thread there too.

Ngatimozart

 

[Takao]

Treading on mods toes I know - but @pykie places his finger on a key point - the additional air combat capability doesn't have to be F-35. It's not written anywhere; it's always been an assumption that that equals another Squadron of F-35. No one has done the hard work to justify that one way or another.

Now - while I think there is an argument for a cheap CAS platform (even having Hornets over the MEAO doing ground attack has been...silly....without the threat justifying it. understandable but silly) I don't think that would meet the intent of that project. And I think 1 Avn Regt does that enough for the ADF. But, I think there should be more discussion than 'just buy another F-35 squadron', especially when that doesn't plug the F-111 gap, when it comes to additional air combat capability.

 

[Redlands18]

Treading on mods toes I know - but @pykie places his finger on a key point - the additional air combat capability doesn't have to be F-35. It's not written anywhere; it's always been an assumption that that equals another Squadron of F-35. No one has done the hard work to justify that one way or another.

Now - while I think there is an argument for a cheap CAS platform (even having Hornets over the MEAO doing ground attack has been...silly....without the threat justifying it. understandable but silly) I don't think that would meet the intent of that project. And I think 1 Avn Regt does that enough for the ADF. But, I think there should be more discussion than 'just buy another F-35 squadron', especially when that doesn't plug the F-111 gap, when it comes to additional air combat capability.

It’s not written anywhere it has to be additional F-35s, but what else can it be? Does a major FA-18F upgrade need that sort of money?
The time frame for the the additional Air Combat capability is $5-6B for 23-24 to 31-32, that has the 4th F-35 Sqn written all over it. So what do you actually think it could mean? $5-6b for 1 Sqn, compares pretty favourably to $21b for the first 3+ OCU. I can’t see us buying any other type like Typhoon, Rafale or FA-50. I doubt that would be enough money to introduce a Sqn of F-15s with a completely seperate trg and logistics train, all the flash new 5th Gen Fighter designs are nothing but paper designs at this stage, no way they are going to be ready. Brand new FA-18E/Fs why?
What else could it be? New Weapons are covered under other programs. How do you introduce additional Air Combat capability in that time frame, remembering that all the force multipliers are covered under seperate programs? Plugging the F-111 gap, The FA-18Fs shortly and the F-35s and possibly the P-8, down the track are getting the LRASM which has a range of 370ks, the longest range Missiles the F-111 ever got was the AGM-142 and Harpoon at around 140ks, not forgetting the far superior Air Tanker support now available.

 

[seaspear]

Would the loyal wingman project come under this as a capability as a force multiplier in this regard,I haven't read specifics on this program as to the intent yet

 

[Redlands18]

Would the loyal wingman project come under this as a capability as a force multiplier in this regard,I haven't read specifics on this program as to the intent yet

There is a program in the update, Teaming Air Vehicles which i take to be the loyal Wingman.

 

[Mark_Evans]

Treading on mods toes I know - but @pykie places his finger on a key point - the additional air combat capability doesn't have to be F-35. It's not written anywhere; it's always been an assumption that that equals another Squadron of F-35. No one has done the hard work to justify that one way or another.

Now - while I think there is an argument for a cheap CAS platform (even having Hornets over the MEAO doing ground attack has been...silly....without the threat justifying it. understandable but silly) I don't think that would meet the intent of that project. And I think 1 Avn Regt does that enough for the ADF. But, I think there should be more discussion than 'just buy another F-35 squadron', especially when that doesn't plug the F-111 gap, when it comes to additional air combat capability.

I am sure this has been covered before but tried the search this forum feature and could not find it.
Any serious consideration to get 12 to 15 B21 bombers?
Not just as bombers but as intelligence platforms teamed with loyal wingman.

 

[Stampede]

Treading on mods toes I know - but @pykie places his finger on a key point - the additional air combat capability doesn't have to be F-35. It's not written anywhere; it's always been an assumption that that equals another Squadron of F-35. No one has done the hard work to justify that one way or another.

Now - while I think there is an argument for a cheap CAS platform (even having Hornets over the MEAO doing ground attack has been...silly....without the threat justifying it. understandable but silly) I don't think that would meet the intent of that project. And I think 1 Avn Regt does that enough for the ADF. But, I think there should be more discussion than 'just buy another F-35 squadron', especially when that doesn't plug the F-111 gap, when it comes to additional air combat capability.

I'm not sure if there is a contemporary equivalent of the F111.
As Redlands has suggested, what would be the alternatives.
I'd suggest it will be additional numbers of our existing fleet and guess a fifth gen aircraft would be the way forward.
F35 would seem the obvious choice.
Seemingly the money would be on the F35 A
However it does beg the question if the other variants would be an option.

With no indication we want to take fixed wing aircraft to sea, the F35 B is probably not going to happen and it's probably a luxury to have this capability for land operations only.
The longer legs of the F35 C is an interesting alternative. ( land based )
Same internal bomb bay as the A, but longer range.

Thoughts



Regards S

PS - To shot myself in the foot, I could see merit in some additional Growlers for the short term ( Say four ) as we transition to that 4th SQN.

 

[pykie]

There is a program in the update, Teaming Air Vehicles which i take to be the loyal Wingman.

Which quite possibly might fill the low cost capability considering most of the current competitors to the Wingman operate at around Mach 0.7 - Mach 1.

Which is slightly faster than the lowcost turbo prop manned options. The Super Tucano cruises at approx 500 kph, which I guess is similar to most attack UAV's.


However, the wingman is still only in development, I don't think it has conducted a first flight (might need to be corrected?) and just a scale model has been unveiled to date? Most of the current competitors to it, have had first flights under their belt, but still haven't incorporated weapons systems etc into their programs. They all seem a long way off being able to fill such a cability, as far away as a 5th generation fighter option potentially.


I guess the other point worth raising is - the government has openly stated that they are pivoting the direction of the DF from ME style operations to the Pacific region and what appears from afar to be the first strategic defense of Australia since WW2.

With the F-35 being procured and planned for prior to this directional change, is the need for another squadron the best option for a potential defence of Australia in the future? Is a multirole fighter the best option for this? I would of thought air superiority is critical in any defense strategy (part of this capability will be filled with the new proposed ground defence missile systems etc), but air superiority isn't exactly the F-35's bread and butter...

 

[pussertas]

Do Aussies have F-4 Phantom II in storage?

No. They were leased from the USAF as a stopgap until the arrival on the F111

 

[hauritz]

It will be interesting to see where Australia goes with Teaming Vehicles. Now that the government has come out and made it clear that Australia will be seeking a long-range strike capability, and our immediate neighbours seem to be good with the idea, a lot of the barriers for arming something like the Loyal Wingman have been removed. In fact thanks to Chinese expansion there might now be a substantial regional market for low-cost Unmanned Combat Vehicles.

If Australia is more willing to sell to its neighbours than the US we could tap into that market.

 

[ngatimozart]

Treading on mods toes I know - but @pykie places his finger on a key point - the additional air combat capability doesn't have to be F-35. It's not written anywhere; it's always been an assumption that that equals another Squadron of F-35. No one has done the hard work to justify that one way or another.

Now - while I think there is an argument for a cheap CAS platform (even having Hornets over the MEAO doing ground attack has been...silly....without the threat justifying it. understandable but silly) I don't think that would meet the intent of that project. And I think 1 Avn Regt does that enough for the ADF. But, I think there should be more discussion than 'just buy another F-35 squadron', especially when that doesn't plug the F-111 gap, when it comes to additional air combat capability.

He does raise a valid point that has to be addressed. The question is does the F-111 requirement for manned airborne long range strike capability still exist? If so what should replace it? Clearly the F-35A and the Shornets don't because of their short legs and relatively less payload capability. This really only leaves the F-15E or F-15EX. The F-15 is a highly capable platform but expensive to own and operate. However Boeing have claimed that they can offer the F-15EX to the USAF for little more than US$80 million with a CPFH of US$25,000 - 30,000. But we have all heard Boeing promises before. Having said that, the F-15 is a formidable strike platform.

I am sure this has been covered before but tried the search this forum feature and could not find it.
Any serious consideration to get 12 to 15 B21 bombers?
Not just as bombers but as intelligence platforms teamed with loyal wingman.

Umm at US$500,000 million each how are you going to pay for them? What other ADF capabilities are you going to axe to pay for them? Finally, who says that the US will even allow them to be exported.

 

[ngatimozart]

Which quite possibly might fill the low cost capability considering most of the current competitors to the Wingman operate at around Mach 0.7 - Mach 1.

Which is slightly faster than the lowcost turbo prop manned options. The Super Tucano cruises at approx 500 kph, which I guess is similar to most attack UAV's.


However, the wingman is still only in development, I don't think it has conducted a first flight (might need to be corrected?) and just a scale model has been unveiled to date? Most of the current competitors to it, have had first flights under their belt, but still haven't incorporated weapons systems etc into their programs. They all seem a long way off being able to fill such a cability, as far away as a 5th generation fighter option potentially.


I guess the other point worth raising is - the government has openly stated that they are pivoting the direction of the DF from ME style operations to the Pacific region and what appears from afar to be the first strategic defense of Australia since WW2.

With the F-35 being procured and planned for prior to this directional change, is the need for another squadron the best option for a potential defence of Australia in the future? Is a multirole fighter the best option for this? I would of thought air superiority is critical in any defense strategy (part of this capability will be filled with the new proposed ground defence missile systems etc), but air superiority isn't exactly the F-35's bread and butter...

Who says that air superiority isn't the F-35s bread and butter? It's done pretty well at Red Flags clearing the skies of opposition aircraft. The only other true 5th gen air superiority fighter is the F-22 and that's no longer being manufactured and anyway it was forbidden to be exported.

 

[Redlands18]

He does raise a valid point that has to be addressed. The question is does the F-111 requirement for manned airborne long range strike capability still exist? If so what should replace it? Clearly the F-35A and the Shornets don't because of their short legs and relatively less payload capability. This really only leaves the F-15E or F-15EX. The F-15 is a highly capable platform but expensive to own and operate. However Boeing have claimed that they can offer the F-15EX to the USAF for little more than US$80 million with a CPFH of US$25,000 - 30,000. But we have all heard Boeing promises before. Having said that, the F-15 is a formidable strike platform.

Umm at US$500,000 million each how are you going to pay for them? What other ADF capabilities are you going to axe to pay for them? Finally, who says that the US will even allow them to be exported.

The F-15EX is an option but how keen would the RAAF be about introducing a 3rd Fast Jet line that has has no link to any of the current Fleet and would require its own Logistics and trg streams, completely seperate to both the F-35 and Growler Fleet.
The chances of Australia getting the B-21, you would have to check with Mr Buckley on that one.