Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

John Newman

The Bunker Group
This is a discussion forum, not an encyclopedia. Not everyone here is/are defense pro's and the point of a discussion forum is exactly that. It sounds like you should be running a blog, not a forum for discussion.

If you don't want novice discussion, you should limit your membership to defence pro's.

Your warning isn't required.

Please cancel my account, I have no desire to post here again with this sort of moderation, which is frankly the most over the top I've ever encountered from multiple forums I read.

Cheers.
Mate,

Following on from what Redlands18 and StobieWan have said, DT is not some elite forum only populated by Def Pros, there are people who are identified as Def Pros (and yes there is a vetting process), there are Def Pros that choose not to be identified and equally there are a lot of non-Def Pros too.

But all who are here have one goal, and that goal is to participate in quality discussion, quality discussion come from all corners of DT, not just one sector, ok?

Personally I don't care if you want to be part of this or not, I won't loose any sleep either way.

But...

Obviously you are interested in Defence matters, so why not take the advice that has been given and run with it?

Two choices, continue the dummy spit and throw your toys out of the pram, or suck it up, take a deep breath and continue on, you never know you might enjoy it, both from learning from others and also adding your views too.

Up to you hey??

Cheers,
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member

A good article that clears up some information wrt the FSP. Explains some capabilities outlined in the FSP that may have have been open to interpretation.

There is the note that air combat capabilities are expected to see significant development in coming years, with funding effectively being a marker in the sand (as Takao has said) for emerging technologies and capabilities that may emerge.

Also of note is some information into what exactly 'additional ISR systems' entails, noting additional crewed and unscrewed aircraft and systems. Could be more platforms/systems of the same based on what we learn out of RAAF Edinburgh and off of new acquisitions, or additional capabilities (loitering munitions) perhaps?

More in the article, is an interesting read with clarification answers from an informed source.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
Mate,

Following on from what Redlands18 and StobieWan have said, DT is not some elite forum only populated by Def Pros, there are people who are identified as Def Pros (and yes there is a vetting process), there are Def Pros that choose not to be identified and equally there are a lot of non-Def Pros too.

But all who are here have one goal, and that goal is to participate in quality discussion, quality discussion come from all corners of DT, not just one sector, ok?

Personally I don't care if you want to be part of this or not, I won't loose any sleep either way.

But...

Obviously you are interested in Defence matters, so why not take the advice that has been given and run with it?

Two choices, continue the dummy spit and throw your toys out of the pram, or suck it up, take a deep breath and continue on, you never know you might enjoy it, both from learning from others and also adding your views too.

Up to you hey??

Cheers,
Spot on John Newman...we have all been scolded from time to time.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Following on from what Redlands18 and StobieWan have said, DT is not some elite forum only populated by Def Pros, there are people who are identified as Def Pros (and yes there is a vetting process), there are Def Pros that choose not to be identified and equally there are a lot of non-Def Pros too.
1. Agreed. Joining DT has been a humbling experience — as the quality of discussion is such that, if you are wrong, someone will correct you.
Spot on...we have all been scolded from time to time.
2. It’s not about scolding people. Rather, we can point people to better sources and sound logic. I have eaten humble pie for years, especially when I am corrected on naval matters. But the most rewarding moments were being privately told by:
(i) an Apache pilot what was wrong with my concept with how UAV and Apache teaming works; and​
(ii) a former artillery officer and defence journalist how limited my understanding of littoral warfare was; and that to dominate the sea from land and vice versa required much more reading than what I had done at that point.​

2 to 3 years later, I was able to improve the quality of my posts.

3. Platform centric discussions are rubbish and thousands of DT members hold that view. In the area of attaining air superiority during air warfare, hundreds of DT members are able to explain that the future is in co-operative battlespace managers which can run primary or hand-off where appropriate. This means fighter aircraft in US service will work with support from AWACs, Rivet, Compass and so on. F-35A and F-15EXs will not work by themselves, in fact, they will work with F-22 too to provide advanced ISR, communications and computational capabilities.

4. From a US Navy centric view point, AEGIS and its cooperative engagement capability can take incoming data from off-board sources, be it from Baseline 10 Aegis System of Flight III Arleigh Burke destroyers, the up coming FFG(X)s, E-2Ds, Block 3 Super Hornets, Growlers, F-35Bs and F-35Cs to fire at targets a ship's own radar cannot see. The US Navy has tested what's called "launch on remote," where the AEGIS destroyer uses the off-board data to launch a Standard Missile towards the target (i.e. an enemy ballistic or cruise missile) but still relies on its own radar to lock on for the final approach to intercept the target. It is important to understand that the pilot of the sensing aircraft is not going to command a Standard Missile launch, rather it is the naval air warfare officer based on the AEGIS destroyer.

5. This kill chain relies on E-2D acting as the gateway to AEGIS, processing data from various on-board and off-board sensors. The terminal guidance phase is handled by the Standard Missile's seeker. The US Navy will be looking at "engage on remote." The key to this new way of war, is the network, including space based systems that will join these systems providing a 'greater than the sum of the parts' for the US armed services.

6. Air warfare is conceptual and often conducted at beyond visual range, using missiles that can out turn any fighter. Undue focus on kinematic performance of a teen series fighter is not relevant to a systems event. In the real world, no fighter, fights on its own. Some newbies have said this policy on focusing on a system level discussion is boring but we have had so many cycles of correcting newbies that many senior members of the forum are bored with dealing with these people.

7. We have a reference 'thread (where some prior comparisons were made)' for new members to read, to help them stay out of trouble.

8. When someone writes 20 posts that contains so many factual errors and has limited conceptual understanding of the subject he argues about, it gets frustrating to others trying to explain to him. This was raised as an issue to the Moderators and I gave him a gentle reminder in Green text (and not even in the usual Red text). The goal was just to enable pykie to realise that he needed to do more reading by pointing him to threads from 2010 and 2013, where the same arguments have been made.

9. pykie’s ballistic reaction to Green text guidance demonstrated to us that he was not willing to listen. And since we also aim to please, we fulfilled his request to be banned.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
2. It’s not about scolding people. Rather, we can point people to better sources and sound logic. I have eaten humble pie for years, especially when I am corrected on naval matters. But the most rewarding moments were being privately told by:
(i) an Apache pilot what was wrong with my concept with how UAV and Apache teaming works; and​
(ii) a former artillery officer and defence journalist how limited my understanding of littoral warfare was; and that to dominate the sea from land and vice versa required much more reading than what I had done at that point.​

2 to 3 years later, I was able to improve the quality of my posts.

3. Platform centric discussions are rubbish and thousands of DT members hold that view. In the area of attaining air superiority during air warfare, hundreds of DT members are able to explain that the future is in co-operative battlespace managers which can run primary or hand-off where appropriate. This means fighter aircraft in US service will work with support from AWACs, Rivet, Compass and so on. F-35A and F-15EXs will not work by themselves, in fact, they will work with F-22 too to provide advanced ISR, communications and computational capabilities.

4. From a US Navy centric view point, AEGIS and its cooperative engagement capability can take incoming data from off-board sources, be it from Baseline 10 Aegis System of Flight III Arleigh Burke destroyers, the up coming FFG(X)s, E-2Ds, Block 3 Super Hornets, Growlers, F-35Bs and F-35Cs to fire at targets a ship's own radar cannot see. The US Navy has tested what's called "launch on remote," where the AEGIS destroyer uses the off-board data to launch a Standard Missile towards the target (i.e. an enemy ballistic or cruise missile) but still relies on its own radar to lock on for the final approach to intercept the target. It is important to understand that the pilot of the sensing aircraft is not going to command a Standard Missile launch, rather it is the naval air warfare officer based on the AEGIS destroyer.

5. This kill chain relies on E-2D acting as the gateway to AEGIS, processing data from various on-board and off-board sensors. The terminal guidance phase is handled by the Standard Missile's seeker. The US Navy will be looking at "engage on remote." The key to this new way of war, is the network, including space based systems that will join these systems providing a 'greater than the sum of the parts' for the US armed services.

6. Air warfare is conceptual and often conducted at beyond visual range, using missiles that can out turn any fighter. Undue focus on kinematic performance of a teen series fighter is not relevant to a systems event. In the real world, no fighter, fights on its own. Some newbies have said this policy on focusing on a system level discussion is boring but we have had so many cycles of correcting newbies that many senior members of the forum are bored with dealing with these people.

7. We have a reference 'thread (where some prior comparisons were made)' for new members to read, to help them stay out of trouble.

8. When someone writes 20 posts that contains so many factual errors and has limited conceptual understanding of the subject he argues about, it gets frustrating to others trying to explain to him. This was raised as an issue to the Moderators and I gave him a gentle reminder in Green text (and not even in the usual Red text). The goal was just to enable pykie to realise that he needed to do more reading by pointing him to threads from 2010 and 2013, where the same arguments have been made.

9. pykie’s ballistic reaction to Green text guidance demonstrated to us that he was not willing to listen. And since we also aim to please, we fulfilled his request to be banned.
BTW I was in agreement with John Newman.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think I spent my first 3 months on this board in "read only" mode - I was kind of terrified of getting hit over the head with a mallet.

Moderation here is disciplined and professional - I've never felt that it was anything other than absolutely focused on keeping the conversations grounded in reality and of a civil tone.

I've learned what I can retain with my tiny brain and occasionally, I get to unleash it on hapless commentators outside in my personal life. This place is a precious resource as it's one of the few places I've seen on the web where you can argue any point you like *if you can back it up* and will engage with the arguments presented.

I'm kind of a fan :)
 

hairyman

Active Member
Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.
Why, just why? Think about it. Really think about it. If a F-35 can be hacked so can a Gripen E. That's just the start. What advantages does it have to offer over the Shornet?
 

protoplasm

Active Member
Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.
One of the biggest reasons for not going anywhere near another relatively light fighter type aircraft for the RAAF is the cost to setup and then maintain another completely separate training, basing, maintaining, modernising and supporting stream for a new type. That would be in the $billions to setup and maintain, which would need to come from somewhere (what's not happening because money was diverted to do this?). As ngati asked, what advantages would you bring to the RAAF by adding Gripen to the mix of F-35A and F/A-18F/G that we already have? If we then went down a path of assembling them here we would also have the sunk costs of establishing a production line for a relatively small run of aircraft.

The bigger questions is CONOPS, how would a Gripen fit into the established concept of operations involving F-35, F/A-18F, E/A-18G, E-7, P-8, MC-55 and KC-30? What capability would a Gripen bring that we don't have and would like to have?
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Why, just why? Think about it. Really think about it. If a F-35 can be hacked so can a Gripen E. That's just the start. What advantages does it have to offer over the Shornet?
I have to agree...bringing another system in that needs to be integrated and supported doesn't make any sense. Even the F15 suggestion is hard to fathom. The only thing it brings that we dont already have is range ad a larger payload. If thats is what fits in the with plan then by all means but it would be a massive undertaking for probably sub 30 airframes...and probably would of been done when the F111s retired instead of SHornets.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
The one thing that did surprise me was the relatively early replacement of Wedgetail. Given that these are still some of the most modern aircraft of their kind, it makes me wonder what is driving this. Perhaps the threat posed by J20/PL15/PL21 is sufficient to warrant a new approach, in which case a new AEW&C platform might look more like an MQ25 than a commercial airliner..?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.
It is certainly possible that Australia could acquire the Gripen E, and could even do a domestic build. Whether it should is an entirely different question, with a definite answer IMO and that answer should be, "no," for the following reasons.

Firstly, while I expect the Gripen E to be a capable 4.5 gen fighter, I do not expect it really has any real capability advantage over the RAAF Shornets already in service, and I certainly doubt it has capability advantages over the F-35. What this in turn means is that either the RAAF would be adding a third type of fighter/combat aircraft to the OrBat, or replacing one fairly new type 4.5 gen fighter with a somewhat newer type 4.5 gen fighter from a completely different manufacturer and country of origin. Even worse if the plan was to replace the SHornets with Gripen Es is that the Gripen E user base is much smaller than the SHornet user base, which means less interest in and funding for new developments.

Secondly is the costing. I forget what the current F-35A pricing is, as it keeps changing/going down as it gets closer to full rate production. IIRC the last pricing had been something like USD$89 mil. for one of the lastest LRIP lots. From what I can recall, the cost for a Gripen E built in Sweden was priced around USD$69 mil. so while yes, the Gripen costs less to acquire than the Lightning II, it is nowhere near as low as half the cost of a Lightning II. Now, if a domestic Australian build were to also be added in as a requirement, then the cost would spike to in excess of USD$120 mil. per aircraft, based off the contract with Brazil. That would mean that a Lightning II would be something like 75% the cost of a domestic Gripen E build.

Then there would be the matter of what to do with both the infrastructure and workforce, should a domestic build be decided upon. Even if Australia were to decide upon building such aircraft in Oz, and at a low rate of ~1 fighter per month, I cannot see that more than two or three years worth of production getting ordered. After that, the facility would idle and the workforce released. Australia never managed to develop and sustain a domestic aircraft production capability like Brazil has managed, so there is not really any existing Australian aviation industry that a workforce could seek positions in. Yes, I am aware that there are aviation companies in Australia, but for the most part they manufacture components which means neither work for the skilled personnel trained to build the Gripen E, or a task/role for the infrastructure built to produce the fighters. It would basically be the aviation equivalence of the "Valley of Death" which has be let to happen, repeatedly, in Australian naval shipbuilding.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Many thanks to Todjaeger, protoplasm and ngatimozart for your comprehensive reply to hairyman.
After reading the article Single V Twin engine posted by Barney 41 on thread 6481, I am now convinced. Single engine fighter planes are best, I notice that the F35 got canned as a fighter. Maybe we should consider a few Gripen N to handle the air to air combat. Seems to be a relatively cheap option.
You were called up by the Mod Team in April 2019 for falsely claiming that the F-35 got canned and advocating the Gripen without providing a link.
Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.
What is with this illogical promotion of Gripen E? Can we keep this thread grounded in reality, please? The next time you disrupt this RAAF thread, with statements that seem illogical and not based on reality, the Mod Team will take action.
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
The one thing that did surprise me was the relatively early replacement of Wedgetail. Given that these are still some of the most modern aircraft of their kind, it makes me wonder what is driving this. Perhaps the threat posed by J20/PL15/PL21 is sufficient to warrant a new approach, in which case a new AEW&C platform might look more like an MQ25 than a commercial airliner..?
Possible but also possible they are talking note of advancement in the civil aviation world. Another possibility is they are finding the aircraft too small for future use, might want something the size of a 787 or a330neo.

Could be any number of reasons but on the plus side our AEW&C fleet will be kept young and modern compared to many other nations.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The RAAF has been very clear with its intension of becoming a fifth-generation airforce by the mid-2020s so I think there is just about no chance of it going for anything other than more F-35s. I can see the SEAD/DEAD role eventually given to the F-35. It already has a reasonable SEAD/DEAD capability and there will be more improvements from 2022.

Another option could be that this could be yet another role for the Loyal Wingman. The US is looking at using its own version of the loyal wingman, the XQ-58A Valkerie, for this role.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I think we can all narrow it down to either an F35 or large combat drone of some type. While we may start to see 6th gen fighters available during the 30s they will likely be very developmental in nature thus risky. I don't think it will be any variation of the LW as we will still be learning and refining the initial aircraft. From what I can see we are taking a crawl, walk run approach with the LW to get the initial system then gradually improve on it. We tried to run with the E-7 and it cost us time and money, took a step back to do crawl walk run with it and got it working and world class at that. Let's not push for LW to replace the Shornet just yet. Will just cost us time and wipe out a quarter of or combat aircraft trying to do so.
 
Hi all, I’ve been watching this forum for a very long time. I very much enjoy the quality of the posts. I’m purely a defence enthusiast, hence why I don’t post very often. I apologise if this has been discussed previously, but with the loyal wingman project. I noticed the other day that approximately 11 billion is being set aside, of this I’m curious as to how many aircraft this would buy and I imagine if it is a significant number what sort of expansions to existing bases may be required?
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
.
Hi all, I’ve been watching this forum for a very long time. I very much enjoy the quality of the posts. I’m purely a defence enthusiast, hence why I don’t post very often. I apologise if this has been discussed previously, but with the loyal wingman project. I noticed the other day that approximately 11 billion is being set aside, of this I’m curious as to how many aircraft this would buy and I imagine if it is a significant number what sort of expansions to existing bases may be required?
On a unit price level the LW that we are currently developing with Boeing is claimed to be comparable to that of the valkyrie which is around $2m USD. So for the LW if claim is accurate you would be looking at $3m AUD per a unit base model. If we only purchased the base model then $11b (not counting O&S) would buy you over 3,600 though at those numbers economy of scale comes in and could buy even more. That said you wouldn't want to do that as while the base model will provide some use the advantage of the LW is from the start it has apperantly been designed to be multi use from combat to ISR and EW. To get there will take a good chunk of change even if using existing systems and those speciality LW will cost more then the base model but still much cheaper then full blown assets currently in those fields. With budget size and length of program could potentially still see us getting a couple dozen annually if not more but don't take my word on that. Future LW assets could be much more costly for far greater capability reducing numbers but increasing the benefits they give to the ADF. Will just have to wait and see for now.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Valkyrie looks very similar to the EADS Barracuda technology demonstrator, & the published dimensions are very similar. Significant differences under the skin, from what I've read, though.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
.On a unit price level the LW that we are currently developing with Boeing is claimed to be comparable to that of the valkyrie which is around $2m USD. So for the LW if claim is accurate you would be looking at $3m AUD per a unit base model. If we only purchased the base model then $11b (not counting O&S) would buy you over 3,600 though at those numbers economy of scale comes in and could buy even more. That said you wouldn't want to do that as while the base model will provide some use the advantage of the LW is from the start it has apperantly been designed to be multi use from combat to ISR and EW. To get there will take a good chunk of change even if using existing systems and those speciality LW will cost more then the base model but still much cheaper then full blown assets currently in those fields. With budget size and length of program could potentially still see us getting a couple dozen annually if not more but don't take my word on that. Future LW assets could be much more costly for far greater capability reducing numbers but increasing the benefits they give to the ADF. Will just have to wait and see for now.
Personally I think the capability to locally build UCAVs and ramp up production if necessary is more important than actual numbers. Operationally I don't imagine you would ever need to have more than a handful in service at any given time. I suspect most of the training could be done virtually.
 
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