Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

what’s the current realistic options?

if that budget is accurate it might mean 40-50 units? For something in the $140m AUD price range?

The Budget figures supplied on all procurement for the ADF is for all up costs to introduce a new capability, generally only about 1/3 is actually for purchasing the system involved, the other 2/3 is for all the ancillary costs of introducing a new system. That will include Trg systems and conversion Trg for both Air and Ground Crews, upgrading Bases, Spare Parts, may also include increasing the number of personnel req to man the Units involved.
If Australia decides to replace the FA-18F with another manned Aircraft anytime in the next 15 years, it will almost certainly be F-35As.

 

[Milne Bay]

The Budget figures supplied on all procurement for the ADF is for all up costs to introduce a new capability, generally only about 1/3 is actually for purchasing the system involved, the other 2/3 is for all the ancillary costs of introducing a new system. That will include Trg systems and conversion Trg for both Air and Ground Crews, upgrading Bases, Spare Parts, may also include increasing the number of personnel req to man the Units involved.
If Australia decides to replace the FA-18F with another manned Aircraft anytime in the next 15 years, it will almost certainly be F-35As.

It might be well to remember that there has been support from gov't for the Boeing Loyal Wingman project.
I don't see this going away, and it may well be on the table for the extra airframes
MB

 

[Redlands18]

It might be well to remember that there has been support from gov't for the Boeing Loyal Wingman project.
I don't see this going away, and it may well be on the table for the extra airframes
MB

I think that comes under the Teaming Air Vehicles MB which starts around 26-27 and has a budget of $7-11b. I’m just trying to work out where the Rhinos fit into this and the extra Air Combat capability seems to be the only place i can come up with, it may only be a upgrade to existing Aircraft or it may be a replacement.

 

[pykie]

I think that comes under the Teaming Air Vehicles MB which starts around 26-27 and has a budget of $7-11b. I’m just trying to work out where the Rhinos fit into this and the extra Air Combat capability seems to be the only place i can come up with, it may only be a upgrade to existing Aircraft or it may be a replacement.

You are probably right.

The Loyal Wingman Project is a fairly exciting concept, especially being an Australian made one....

Between this, research into hypersonic weapons and the investment into the defence manufacturing industry, ship building etc, we are certainly looking at a very different next few decades for defence manufacturing in the country

The below is the exert from the air fact sheet:

2020 Defence Strategic Update | About | Defence

The Defence Strategic Update sets out the challenges in Australia’s strategic environment and their implications for Defence planning. The 2020 Force Structure Plan details the Government’s intentions for new and adjusted Australian Defence Force capability investments to implement the new...

www.defence.gov.au

Can you please post the source for this image. It protects both you and the forum against accusations of plagiarism. Rule #14 refers.

Ngatimozart

 

[ngatimozart]

With the R.A.A.F,s F35A there was the previous discussion of a fourth squadron to bring to a total of one hundred f35a,s this is not stated in the document released by the government
Is there any confirmation that all of the f35a,s for the R.A.A.F will be brought up to block iv capability ?

F-35A Lightning II | Royal Australian Air Force

The F-35A Lightning II is the Australian Defence Force’s first fifth-generation air combat capability.

www.airforce.gov.au

I can't fathom a reason for why they wouldn't be. It will be necessary to keep them up to date to allow the employment of the latest weapons, EW, sensor capabilities etc

The Aussie government is not the pommy government so I agree with Boagrius that the F-35A will get the latest upgrades and remain in lockstep with the USAF aircraft.

Thanks Takao, as always great to have other perspectives.

To be honest I'd entirely forgotten about the Chooks. They do a great job and could with limitations do this long range SAR mission, noting that I did mention this is really just another Air Mobility Special type task. The bit I didn't go into due time, is the missing AAR support mission from 37SQN but that is a typical RAAF fail 'cause its not FJ. Overall for AMG the C-27J is a ALS disaster and has split limited resources; C-130J are knackered and too few; missions such as helicopter & local FJ AAR are missing; CH-47 has hugely limited numbers and is with Army (apologies for any ruffled feathers, but the 80s political smash & grab of helo by Brown Jobs was/is another disaster).

Thanks also for tracking for me the para's 10.5, 10.6, and 10.9 of the FSP which I'll track down. Overall, is this a 50% manning increase? To be simplistic and blunt, we need this to prepare our airmen for the conflict that we hope will not eventuate.

WRT Foxtrot in our ORBAT, I thank you for the point about needing many tools for future ops (Army SRBM and MQ-9B not really being first line or long range anti-SAG). What the 2030s brings will be hugely interesting!

Why can't the NH90 MRH do the long range SAR missions? It has capability for external tanks, is quieter than the Chooks and you could probably fit some with a refuelling probe. I think Airbus (NHI) are doing some work in that area. Since your Hercs are buggered, you could acquire some KC-130J for such a role. Just a thought.

 

[oldsig127]

With the R.A.A.F,s F35A there was the previous discussion of a fourth squadron to bring to a total of one hundred f35a,s this is not stated in the document released by the government
Is there any confirmation that all of the f35a,s for the R.A.A.F will be brought up to block iv capability ?

F-35A Lightning II | Royal Australian Air Force

The F-35A Lightning II is the Australian Defence Force’s first fifth-generation air combat capability.

www.airforce.gov.au

There's $17B set aside for future fighters. For some years the purchase of 28 additional F-35A options has been coupled in announcements with words like "or a future capability" I take that to mean more F-35, or more of something else. I'll let someone without a cracked crystal ball decide which.

As for Block IV, I'd be astonished if we don't stay in lockstep. These aircraft need to stay relevant for decades, and falling behind right at the start would be a monumental planning failure

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

Whether we get new aircraft or will keep the Rhinos is pretty vague. Possibly intentionally so. "Additional Air Combat Capability" can mean anything really. On page 50 it says " The Government is committed to the procurement and introduction of the F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, support of the F/A-18F Super Hornet strike aircraft and acquiring enhanced air-launched munitions." So no real mention of replacement anywhere, in fact if anything it seems to be suggesting the F/A-18F will continue in service. The airframes are only 10 years old and with the addition of LRASM and teaming air vehicles perhaps replacement is no longer a priority. On the other hand, it also commits to the procurement of the F-35 which could mean a third tranche.

Perhaps they might literally be looking at increasing the fleet size. There are lots of unemployed pilots out there at the moment that might be thinking of enlisting or re-enlisting.

 

[John Newman]

There's $17B set aside for future fighters. For some years the purchase of 28 additional F-35A options has been coupled in announcements with words like "or a future capability" I take that to mean more F-35, or more of something else. I'll let someone without a cracked crystal ball decide which.

As for Block IV, I'd be astonished if we don't stay in lockstep. These aircraft need to stay relevant for decades, and falling behind right at the start would be a monumental planning failure

oldsig

Mate, that figure of $17b you've mention is for the 72 F-35A currently being procured, nothing to do with the potential additional 28 aircraft.

To break it down a bit more (and these figures quoted are from the Senate Report on the F-35 back in late 2016), at that time the program budget allowance was $17.1b, which broke down into $2.6b for contingency funding, and $14.5b for the 72 x F-35A, support systems, training, weapons, and infrastructure, but not sustainment costs. But in that report I couldn't find any figure mentioned for those additional 28 airframes.

The 2016 DIIP had slightly different figures, $15.3b for 72 airframes, $1.4b for facilities at Tindal and Townsville, approx. $360m for redevelopment work at Williamtown and Tindal (still roughly around that $17b figure).

There is was a separate budget allowance of between $6b-$7b called, Air Combat Capability - Fourth Squadron.

The new 2020 update has slightly different figures again, F-35 Lightening II $9.9b-$17b and Additional Air Combat Capability $4.5b-$6.7b

In a nutshell, there is a budget allowance for the current 72 airframes being procured and there is a separate budget allowance for that possible 4th Squadron, etc.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

Whether we get new aircraft or will keep the Rhinos is pretty vague. Possibly intentionally so. "Additional Air Combat Capability" can mean anything really. On page 50 it says " The Government is committed to the procurement and introduction of the F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, support of the F/A-18F Super Hornet strike aircraft and acquiring enhanced air-launched munitions." So no real mention of replacement anywhere, in fact if anything it seems to be suggesting the F/A-18F will continue in service. The airframes are only 10 years old and with the addition of LRASM and teaming air vehicles perhaps replacement is no longer a priority. On the other hand, it also commits to the procurement of the F-35 which could mean a third tranche.

Perhaps they might literally be looking at increasing the fleet size. There are lots of unemployed pilots out there at the moment that might be thinking of enlisting or re-enlisting.

Mate, have a look at my post above and have a look at page 57 of the 2020 update. The heading title is Chart 4 - Key Air Domain Investments

You'll see the two separate budget allowances and you'll also see the two separate, but overlapping, timeframes for both of those separate projects.

The first (today to 2030) is the current procurement of 72 F-35A and the second (2025-26 to 2030-31) is the potential 4th Squadron of 28 F-35A or potentially something else (unless something drastic changes I'd think the last 28 airframes is still on the cards).

Cheers,

 

[aussienscale]

There's $17B set aside for future fighters. For some years the purchase of 28 additional F-35A options has been coupled in announcements with words like "or a future capability" I take that to mean more F-35, or more of something else. I'll let someone without a cracked crystal ball decide which.

As for Block IV, I'd be astonished if we don't stay in lockstep. These aircraft need to stay relevant for decades, and falling behind right at the start would be a monumental planning failure

oldsig

For the life of me I can not find the reference, but swear there is an option for a 5th Squadron of F-35 !! I know we have discussed it and reference it in the past on here !!

And agree, we are not the UK, we will stay in absolute lockstep with the US with the program

Cheers, will post the link if I can find it !

 

[hairyman]

Does the RAAF have any interest in any of the planes currently under development in Britain and elsewhere?

 

[Redlands18]

Does the RAAF have any interest in any of the planes currently under development in Britain and elsewhere?

Going on the rate of development of new Fighter Jets over the last 30 years, i would say none of them would be ready before the early 2040s. At present we have 3 different programs for 5th Gen Fighters that would be of any interest to Australia, Britain, France-Germany and Japan, i would find it hard to believe that all 3 will survive as seperate projects and if they did, the individual cost of each Aircraft would be horrendous, considering the relatively small production run.
I want to see at least Prototypes flying before getting to excited about these programs.

 

[Bob53]

I notice there is a Herc upgrade or replacement . What are the likely options there? Bet they are kicking themselves they didn’t buy another half Dozen C17s when they were available.

 

[Redlands18]

I notice there is a Herc upgrade or replacement . What are the likely options there? Bet they are kicking themselves they didn’t buy another half Dozen C17s when they were available.

The big one for the Herc is expanded numbers over the current fleet of 12, given the Time Frame there is 4 possible contenders A400, C-2, KC-390 or new Hercs, i think it will be very much a wait and see with this program, keep an eye on what’s happening with these programs. We are not going to see a new Aircraft design out of the US in that timeframe.
By the way if we were to go back to Hercs for the 5th time that would almost certainly see 100!!! years of continuous Herc service in the RAAF. 1958-2058.

 

[hauritz]

Missing out on the C-17 might give a larger aircraft such as the A400 the edge. Particularly if you have mobile land-based missile systems that might need to be constantly moved around the country.

 

[ngatimozart]

Missing out on the C-17 might give a larger aircraft such as the A400 the edge. Particularly if you have mobile land-based missile systems that might need to be constantly moved around the country.

I think that the A400M is now a poisoned chalice. The RNZAF looked at it for their Herc replacement and passed it by as far to risky.

 

[Incog_Nito]

Something important to keep in mind with defence kit, is that even if a particular nation owns a piece of kit, there are very often restrictions on how that piece of kit gets disposed of once it gets retired from the owning nation's service. This has to do with agreements put in place to limit dissemination of intellectual property (IP) as well as arms control restrictions.

In the case of any defence kit that is sourced from the US, has US IP, or components of US origin, then approval from the US State Dept. has to be received before a country could export a piece of kit that originated in the US. The relatively recent Canadian purchase of ex-RAAF F/A-18 Classic Hornets is a good example, where the sale could only go through once the US had consented to the sale.

The US, with FMS and ITARS regulations are particularly noted for including such limitations, but other nations also engage in such practices.

Thanks for the explanation and I know this, especially if it's US-made equipment.

BTW, I have a question regarding F-18s Hornets, is Canada buying all the Australian Hornets?

I think F-35A is good but Australians must add some more new variants of Super Hornets.

 

[Redlands18]

I think that the A400M is now a poisoned chalice. The RNZAF looked at it for their Herc replacement and passed it by as far to risky.

This is going to be an interesting one for the RAAF and its far from straight forward, with YOD about 31-33, the big question will be, what will be in production? I don’t think we can be certain about any of them in that time frame. The Americans aren’t putting a lot of resources into a C-130 replacement, so quite possibly the Herc line will still be open, the Euros are stuck with the A400 and some supplementing with C-130Js but will need to sell a lot more Aircraft for the line to still be open. Japan will have got all the C-2s they want, can they secure enough exports to keep the line open? Will the KC-390 line still be open? And can the Brazilians prove that they can provide a quality Military Airlifter and provide the type of back up the RAAF expects?

 

[Redlands18]

Thanks for the explanation and I know this, especially if it's US-made equipment.

BTW, I have a question regarding F-18s Hornets, is Canada buying all the Australian Hornets?

I think F-35A is good but Australians must add some more new variants of Super Hornets.

Canada is buying 18 ex RAAF Hornets for continued service and may be buying several for spare parts. Why must we get more Super Hornets for?

 

[Todjaeger]

Thanks for the explanation and I know this, especially if it's US-made equipment.

BTW, I have a question regarding F-18s Hornets, is Canada buying all the Australian Hornets?

I think F-35A is good but Australians must add some more new variants of Super Hornets.

No , Canada is purchasing upto 25 for replacements and spares. I believe a private air training firm in the US is buying more RAAF Hornets, but the exact number AFAIK has not been determined.

I have to ask though, what advantage would there be for the RAAF to purchase more F/A-18 Super Hornets? Right now there are essentially only three variants available, the single seat -E, the twin seater -F currently in RAAF service, and the SEAD/DEAD version the EA-18G Growler, also in RAAF service.

With the F-35A being a newer, and more all around capable fighter aircraft than the SHornet, which at this point has been an in-service design for 20 years now, there is really only one advantage to operating a mixed fleet of fighters. I am purposefully not referring to the special abilities of the Growler, simply because Australia already has them in service. The sole advantage I see in operating a mixed fleet would be if something catastrophic were to happen which caused a grounding of all Australian F-35A's, then the RAAF would have a second type of fighter which it could press into service while the F-35A grounding issue was resolved.

Otherwise, in terms of aircraft capabilities and service outputs, I see no reason to add any additional units to the RAAF inventory. The one possible exception would be to purchase (or possibly convert) a replacement for the EA-18G which was lost.