Ukranian Crisis

Status
Not open for further replies.

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

The Vice-Premier of Ukraine has told journalists that they will not stop providing defense goods to Russia because it would harm the Ukrainian economy.

Киев не намерен прекращать ÑотрудничеÑтво Ñ ÐœÐ¾Ñквой в Ñфере ОПК

The Ukrainian SRBM unit, the 19th Missile Brigade, with Tochka rocket complexes, has been brought to a higher state of readiness.

Ðа Украине привели в боевую готовноÑÑ‚ÑŒ ракетные Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð´ÐµÐ»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ñ ÐžÐ¢Ð Ðš Точка-У

And some sort of border guards exercises has been held. Photos here. Note the mismatched camo. It's not clear whether they don't have matching uniforms, or whether there are outside instructors present.

u_96: Border patrol and Rapid Reaction Unit...

4 Overhauled Su-27s have been redeployed to Nikolaev from the Ukrainian 831st Tactical Aviation Bde. 14 more Su-27s are though to be in flyable condition, at the Bde.

bmpd -

This is a video of Ukrainian military acceptance of the equipment being handed over from Crimea. The person filming is noting that the vehicles are in horrible condition, implying that Russia is responsible for the condition of the vehicles. Kind of silly, after the material that came out of Crimea about the condition of these vehicles prior to their handover.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFSjEzRV2jI#t=11"]Відео УП: РоÑійÑькі війÑькові зіпÑували українÑьку техніку - YouTube[/nomedia]

Meanwhile Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has stated that Russian troop concentrations have decreased along the border.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíñêèé ÌÈÄ çàÿâèë îá "óìåíüøåíèè êîíöåíòðàöèè" âîéñê ÐÔ íà ãðàíèöàõ èç-çà "íåïîíÿòíûõ ìàíåâðîâ"
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
Just read a story of how Ukraine is freaking out because Russia is raising gas prices

BBC News - Ukraine rejects Russia Gazprom gas price hike



On a side note, in my personal opinion if the rest of Ukraine became a part of Russia, it would be the best thing to ever happen to them..

I know I sound unrealistic as if I am playing a real time strategy game....

I personally have been to Ukraine. I am originally from Vladivostok Russia and in 2008 after my grandpa died, my grandma wanted to move to Ukraine, just outside of Kiev. She had a lot of close friends that lived there so I flew out to meet her in Kiev to help her pick a place......

Now Kiev is a very beautiful town. The apartments are very impressive as well(while in Kiev for the first 3 days of the Ukraine trip we stayed with a friend that had an apartment in downtown Kiev). Overall I LOVED the city.

Outside of Kiev is a whole different story. The town my grandma wanted to move to was about 4 hours south of Kiev. So we drove 4 hours to the town. Afterwards, we drove a few more hours south to go and visit the Black Sea. My point of sharing all this is to show you guys I seen lots and LOTS of Ukraine by driving through it. All I got to say is it looks like a 3rd world country. There is still communist propaganda all over that place such as schools and bridges...etc. The buildings are so old that I was scared to go into them. They looked like they were ready to collapse. We pulled over to get gas at some small town and a 5 story apartment building was literally tipping to the left......it looked like as if some giant came and tried to tip the building over. The roads are HELL!!!(And I thought Russian roads were bad). There is parts of these towns that have such steep potholes that there is no way to not scrape your front bumper a few times. Some of these roads are not even paved all the way. Going through these towns honestly looked an aftermath of a war.

The Black Sea was not too bad although after hiking a few miles down the beach I saw 10-20 ships washed up ashore and abandoned...looked like they were there for 15+ years. 3-5 ships looked military.

My point is the country is in very bad shape. Why are they so anti-Russia in Kiev??? I do not understand what their government and their people think they will achieve by being a pro-western/pro-NATO country...? Do they think that their streets will transform into North Hollywood or something? And a bigger questions is, does NATO even want Ukraine? I do not see how Ukraine would benefit NATO. It would actually be a huge financial headache to bring their military up to NATO standards.

All I am saying is Ukraine is in a bad shape and they are about to see how much better Crimea will become by joining back with Russia.

All these former Soviet countries who broke away from Russia have so far showed one thing: They cannot properly rule themselves and have no clue on how to properly run a nation.
 

Klaus

New Member
Actually some of them have, like Estonia or Kazakhstan.
What will become of Ukraine nobody knows, but they should decide where they want to belong to soon. Another two decades of decay and it'll be too late to save anything.
Besides that it's more than doubtful that Russia could incorporate such a large and economically weak country. Bringing Crimea up to Russian standards is enough of a challenge for the moment.
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
All I am saying is Ukraine is in a bad shape and they are about to see how much better Crimea will become by joining back with Russia.

All these former Soviet countries who broke away from Russia have so far showed one thing: They cannot properly rule themselves and have no clue on how to properly run a nation.
Yes, because the Russians have done a wonderful job economically developing places like Dagestan, North Ossetia, and Chechnya. How's Abkhazia's economy doing these days?

I can just as easily argue based off of everything else that you presented in your post that after 20 years of emulating Russian solutions and being in the Russian sphere of influence, shifting to a more European-centric direction when it comes to economics and domestic policies, which, oh wait, was exactly what the Euromaidan types wanted.

As Klaus mentions, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania seem to be doing just fine.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes, because the Russians have done a wonderful job economically developing places like Dagestan, North Ossetia, and Chechnya. How's Abkhazia's economy doing these days?
Compared to what? Chechnya's doing pretty great actually. With all those federal billions, Grozny looks better then Moscow these days. But Abkhazia is an interesting question. See they weren't exactly part of independent Georgia. Ever. They were part of the USSR (GSSR technically, sure) but immediately upon independence, the Georgian civil war broke out. Abkhazia was wrecked, along with the rest of Georgia, and has been slowly recovering ever since. They're certainly doing better now then they were before the 888 war, primarily because the border with Russia is open, and the situation in the republic is a lot more stable. But I don't think we can give Russia much credit for that, it's just basic economics at work. Anyways.

I can just as easily argue based off of everything else that you presented in your post that after 20 years of emulating Russian solutions and being in the Russian sphere of influence, shifting to a more European-centric direction when it comes to economics and domestic policies, which, oh wait, was exactly what the Euromaidan types wanted.
Well to be honest either one would be better then what Ukraine has actually had for the past 20+ years. They've had a government made up of robber barons and opportunistic political entrepreneurs. Had they actually been pro-Russian they could look like Belorussia today.

As Klaus mentions, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania seem to be doing just fine.
Depends on what you mean by fine, I guess. Their population is rapidly leaving, going westward. Their national industries are gone. In the Soviet era they produced automobiles, ships, electronics, everything really. Today they produce sprats. And of course Riga has the dubious honor of being one of the sex-tourism capitals of Europe. When I was in Talinn, Estonia, in 2010, there was a tiny (shiny) new downtown, and a moderately clean historic district. The rest of the city was filled with Soviet-era apartments, slowly falling apart. Within walking distance of downtown, there were partially demolished apartment buildings, covered in trash. It's not exactly a bright and glorious future. Granted they're doing better then say... Ukraine.

None of this means that they are not capable of governing themselves. Nor does it mean they'd be better of under Russian rule. Certainly current circumstances, and the current Russian government is very different from the Soviet one, and not in a good way. But lets not pretend that capitalism and independence brought a fairy tale to Eastern Europe. :)
 
Protesters in Donetsk seize state administration building

Earlier on Sunday, about 2,000 people gathered in Donetsk’s central Lenin Square in voice their support to the officers of the Berkut riot police who had been detained by the security services

DONETSK, April 06. /ITAR-TASS/. Protesters in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk have seized the building of the regional state administration. The police are preparing to use a water cannon.
Earlier on Sunday, about 2,000 people gathered in Donetsk’s central Lenin Square in voice their support to the officers of the Berkut riot police who had been detained by the Ukrainian security services on suspicion of manslaughter during the confrontation in Kiev. The current authorities, according to the protesters, were trying to “play a card of repression against dissidents.”
Participants in the rally chanted slogans holding Russian flags, St. George Ribbons and flags of pro-Russian public organizations in their hands.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

The Ukrainian Air Force has concentrated most of its working planes in Kul'bakino. 4 Su-27s, 6 Su-25M1s, 1 Su-25UBM1, 2 L-39M1s. They're from the 299th and 831st Brigades. Estimates say that there is probably another ~10 flyable Su-27s, maybe 12 Su-24M/MR, and maybe a few additional L-39s and Su-25s.

bmpd -

The Ukrainian military is also pulling vehicles and equipment out of storage, because active duty arsenals are in horrendous condition. In many cases the vehicle park is basically useless.

u_96: "

A Ukrainian regiment using Tu-143 UAVs confirmed combat readiness. Personally I think it's a crime to destroy those museum pieces through use. :p

Íîâîñòè

Meanwhile there is considerable discontent in Ukraine over the mobilization.

u_96:

In Kiev former Berkut members protested in support of their unit commander who is on trial. It came to blows with Euro-Maydan protesters.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Ð’ центре Киева началаÑÑŒ ÑÑ‚Ð¸Ñ…Ð¸Ð¹Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð°ÐºÑ†Ð¸Ñ ÑкÑ-бойцов раÑформированного “Беркутаâ€
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Киев. Ðовый порÑдок.

In Lugansk, 15 people were arrested in possession of a giant arsenal of weapons, including rifles, assault rifles, hand guns, and an RPG.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â óêðàèíñêîì Ëóãàíñêå çàäåðæàëè 15 âîîðóæåííûõ äèâåðñàíòîâ ñ 300 àâòîìàòàìè è ãðàíàòîìåòîì

Details on the incident in Donetsk, mentioned above, the pro-Russian protesters were led by a vanguard of disciplined young men with riot shields and bats. It's probably another militia, but one that hasn't gone too public yet.

The Donetsk police has split, and refused to act against the protesters. Police and paramilitaries (MVD) are being brought in from outside. Even 12 APCs, which are reportedly Ukrainian Army, are there.

Also government buildings in Kharkov and Nikolaev have been seized. In Kharkov fortifications are being built around the government structures, by the protesters, who are occupying them. In Kherson an attack on the government buildings was begun, results are unclear.

The two links from colonel cassad have tons of photo and video material.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïðîðîññèéñêèé ìèòèíã â Äîíåöêå: ëþäè â ìàñêàõ âëîìèëèñü â îáëàñòíóþ àäìèíèñòðàöèþ
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

The Ukrainian Air Force has concentrated most of its working planes in Kul'bakino. 4 Su-27s, 6 Su-25M1s, 1 Su-25UBM1, 2 L-39M1s. They're from the 299th and 831st Brigades. Estimates say that there is probably another ~10 flyable Su-27s, maybe 12 Su-24M/MR, and maybe a few additional L-39s and Su-25s.

bmpd -

The Ukrainian military is also pulling vehicles and equipment out of storage, because active duty arsenals are in horrendous condition. In many cases the vehicle park is basically useless.

u_96: "

A Ukrainian regiment using Tu-143 UAVs confirmed combat readiness. Personally I think it's a crime to destroy those museum pieces through use. :p

Íîâîñòè

The first btln of the new National Guard has been sworn in. 500 service members. Most of them are ex-Euro-Maydan activists, and have received 3 weeks of training.

http://military-informant.com/index.php/force/5018-1.html
http://www.vz.ru/world/2014/4/6/680697.html

Meanwhile there is considerable discontent in Ukraine over the mobilization.

u_96:

In Kiev former Berkut members protested in support of their unit commander who is on trial. It came to blows with Euro-Maydan protesters.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Ð’ центре Киева началаÑÑŒ ÑÑ‚Ð¸Ñ…Ð¸Ð¹Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð°ÐºÑ†Ð¸Ñ ÑкÑ-бойцов раÑформированного “Беркутаâ€
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Киев. Ðовый порÑдок.

In Lugansk, 15 people were arrested in possession of a giant arsenal of weapons, including rifles, assault rifles, hand guns, and an RPG.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â óêðàèíñêîì Ëóãàíñêå çàäåðæàëè 15 âîîðóæåííûõ äèâåðñàíòîâ ñ 300 àâòîìàòàìè è ãðàíàòîìåòîì

Details on the incident in Donetsk, mentioned above, the pro-Russian protesters were led by a vanguard of disciplined young men with riot shields and bats. It's probably another militia, but one that hasn't gone too public yet.

The Donetsk police has split, and refused to act against the protesters. Police and paramilitaries (MVD) are being brought in from outside. Even 12 APCs, which are reportedly Ukrainian Army, are there.

Also government buildings in Kharkov and Nikolaev have been seized. In Kharkov fortifications are being built around the government structures, by the protesters, who are occupying them. In Kherson an attack on the government buildings was begun, results are unclear.

The two links from colonel cassad have tons of photo and video material.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïðîðîññèéñêèé ìèòèíã â Äîíåöêå: ëþäè â ìàñêàõ âëîìèëèñü â îáëàñòíóþ àäìèíèñòðàöèþ
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
 
more news from Donetsk, it may be that some of the pro russia militants aren't what they would like to appear to be.

White House spokesman Jay Carney says there's strong evidence that some pro-Russian protesters who have taken over government buildings in eastern Ukraine were paid, and not local residents.

US to Russia: Don't intervene in eastern Ukraine - World - NZ Herald News
I don,t believe it, just american propaganda the same value as propaganda from Kremlin
 

Twain

Active Member
I don,t believe it, just american propaganda the same value as propaganda from Kremlin
that's been fairly widely reported but much like anything else in the news, it's hard to verify. However there isn't much doubt that russia is stirring unrest in as much of the ukraine as it can
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Compared to what? Chechnya's doing pretty great actually. With all those federal billions, Grozny looks better then Moscow these days.
Not doing great, just propped up.
Depends on what you mean by fine, I guess. Their population is rapidly leaving, going westward. Their national industries are gone. In the Soviet era they produced automobiles, ships, electronics, everything really. Today they produce sprats. And of course Riga has the dubious honor of being one of the sex-tourism capitals of Europe. When I was in Talinn, Estonia, in 2010, there was a tiny (shiny) new downtown, and a moderately clean historic district. The rest of the city was filled with Soviet-era apartments, slowly falling apart. Within walking distance of downtown, there were partially demolished apartment buildings, covered in trash. It's not exactly a bright and glorious future.
Under the USSR, they had small numbers of large factories producing for the USSR, from materials imported from the USSR, & largely employing imported Russians. Almost none of the products could be exported, because they were unsellable in Western markets. It wasn't a sustainable economic model.

Estonia's biggest export now is wireless network equipment, but like the others, its exports are pretty diverse - unlike Russia's. One has to feel sorry for the Balts, though. Screwed by the USSR: there are no more Estonians or Latvians now than 100 years ago, & the healthy pre-WW2 economies of Estonia & Latvia (Lithuanian was poorer), not much different from Finland, were turned into annexes of the Russian economy, left far behind the countries they used to match themselves against.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not doing great, just propped up.
Well they're no longer receiving reconstruction aid. So lets see what happens.

Under the USSR, they had small numbers of large factories producing for the USSR, from materials imported from the USSR, & largely employing imported Russians. Almost none of the products could be exported, because they were unsellable in Western markets. It wasn't a sustainable economic model.
The USSR and COMECON was a fairly closed economy. Export to the West had nothing to do with the sustainability of those enterprises.

Estonia's biggest export now is wireless network equipment, but like the others, its exports are pretty diverse - unlike Russia's.
I'm not sure how you would measure diversity. But if you have a metric, I'd love to see it. I'm not disagreeing, Russia definitely has a problem, but their export is also more diverse then people think. So how do we compare?

One has to feel sorry for the Balts, though. Screwed by the USSR: there are no more Estonians or Latvians now than 100 years ago
Iirc it was Latvia that lost 30% of their population in the last 20 years? So was it the USSR that screwed them, population-wise? Or the current immigration patterns? I think it's at least both of those things responsible.

, & the healthy pre-WW2 economies of Estonia & Latvia (Lithuanian was poorer), not much different from Finland, were turned into annexes of the Russian economy, left far behind the countries they used to match themselves against.
I don't know much about their pre-WWII economies. I do know that they would have ended up swallowed by Hitler or Stalin, and later put through the furnace of the Eastern Front. So I'm not sure the Soviets are exclusively to blame. That having been said, the Soviets certainly invested a lot into rebuilding the Baltics. Would Finland look as great today as it does, if it had been rolled over first by the Wehrmacht, and then by the Red Army?

However you want to talk about macro-economics, this does not change the basic facts. Life in the Baltics today is far from great. Their infrastructure is aging. The Soviet-era factories are shut down. And how many people does the wireless equipment industry you mention actually employ? The population is still rapidly moving out of the country, and the entire younger generation is learning english, so they don't have to be stuck in their home countries. None of this is a good sign. And if you visit some of the smaller towns and cities, in Estonia at least, things get downright depressing. :(
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Things are getting ugly in the Ukrainian South East.

In Donetsk the government buildings are controlled by militia with Molotov cocktails, and combat grenades. They've seized the SBU building, and have opened the arsenal there. The local chemical factory has stopped working, and the workers are supporting the protesters.

In Kharkov, despite some news claiming the government buildings have been freed, they have not. The protesters positions there are weak, but support could come from out of town.

In Lugansk the SBU building has also been captured, and the arsenal opened. They've also captured the airport, and the militias have given an ultimatum to the local government. Either they federalize from the Kiev government, or they will be removed from office.

Colonel Cassad -

These photos are from Lugansk. Take a look. The militias there are wearing assault rifles, and helmets.

Colonel Cassad -

Donbass has declared independence. Armed militias (REALLY armed) are controlling the government buildings. The International is being sung in a semi-organized manner.

Colonel Cassad -
ПринÑта Ð´ÐµÐºÐ»Ð°Ñ€Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð¾ Ñоздании ÐезавиÑимой Донецкой Ðародной Ð*еÑпублики! | КраÑные Советы
Colonel Cassad -

The Donetsk Republican Council (unclear whether the original Ukrainian one, or some new body) has requested Russian peacekeepers, and intends to hold a referendum on becoming part of Russia, before May 11th.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1260281.html

Some reports are coming out of Kharkov that the government buildings have been taken, and a Kharkov Republic has been declared, but the situation is messy, so I doubt they're particularly accurate.

http://newsru.com/world/07apr2014/harkov.html

Busloads of security forces, and alleged foreign mercenaries (but probably just MVD soldiers) has arrived in Donetsk. The red berets are worn by Berkut and Titan MVD units. Berkut is disbanded, so this is probably Titan.

http://u-96.livejournal.com/3319711.html

A couple of Ukrainian Su-27s were sighted in the sky over Kharkov.

http://military-informant.com/index.php/airforce/5022-1.html

Reports are coming out of Donetsk, that pro-government forces are being flown in by helo and plane.

http://azlok.livejournal.com/928517.html

More photos, these without specific location, from the uprising in the South East.

http://u-96.livejournal.com/3319466.html

Meanwhile Right Sector has declared war on Russia and on the South-East.

Colonel Cassad -

In Russia a law has been passed giving the right to citizenship to anyone who was born in Russia or the USSR, and can speak Russian (the test is reportedly not too strict).

*

Now, remember when ~4000 Ukrainian service members wanted to leave Crimea? Well the roads seem to be open, but only ~1300 have left so far. I wonder how many will end up leaving ultimately.

Добро пожаловать в журнал Ð*оÑтовÑкого Орла - Сколько военных Украины ушли из Крыма?

6 More Mi-35M helos have been flown over to Crimea, from Kasnodar region.

u_96:

And a messy little incident took place in Strelkovoe village. It's a tiny village that's geographically part of Crimea, but is cut off from the rest of Crimea. It was included into Kherson region, during administrative reshuffling of the Soviet period. Their mayor was pro-Russian, and at night the SBU arrested him. However locals citizens quickly ran to the nearest Russian checkpoint, and Russian troops on an APC showed up. After a brief confrontation with the SBU, the mayor was released.

Russian soliders suggested that the mayor move across the border into Crimea, to avoid persecution, but he declined stating that he would only move if his entire village moved too.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - ÐатиÑк толп, бегущих из Крыма, не уÑпевают Ñдерживать вукраинÑкие пограничники
Íàøè äåñàíòíèêè îòáèëè ó ÑÁÓ ãëàâó ìÿòåæíîãî ñåëüñîâåòà

Also, Ukraine had banned some Russian candy, and other goods a couple of weeks ago. Now Russia has banned Ukrainian dairy products.

http://www.vz.ru/economy/2014/4/7/680812.html
 

Twain

Active Member
I'm not sure how you would measure diversity. But if you have a metric, I'd love to see it. I'm not disagreeing, Russia definitely has a problem, but their export is also more diverse then people think. So how do we compare?



:(
Estonia is actually pretty diverse

OEC: Estonia (EST) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

It's top two categories only account for 26% of total exports with the rest spread out across a number of different items

Compared to Russia with about 2/3 in petroleum products and another decent percentage in closely related products, fertilizers etc.

OEC: Russia (RUS) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Estonia is actually pretty diverse

OEC: Estonia (EST) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

It's top two categories only account for 26% of total exports with the rest spread out across a number of different items

Compared to Russia with about 2/3 in petroleum products and another decent percentage in closely related products, fertilizers etc.

OEC: Russia (RUS) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners
Interesting. That's good info.

The last export chart I saw was old, but colored metals were a big part of the export. But I have to wonder, where is natural gas in that export chart? In the top 5 it lists raw aluminum at 1.5%. Natural gas certainly makes up more then 1.5% of Russian export. Why is it not mentioned at all? Some other questions. Russia exports weapons to the tune of 15 bln every year. But that doesn't seem to appear anywhere. I also have to wonder about how small the export of nuclear reactors is, according to this source. I've always thought it was more significant then that, given how much of the world market is controlled by Rosatom. According to Russian sources, it has 20% of the world market. Iirc Scientific American even did an article on it a few issues back.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
mAIOR thanks for clarifying.

More news. Ukrainian border guard troops have begun digging in near Donetsk. They're digging anti-tank trenches...

The Border Guard units there are an improvised unit, including cadets from the Border Guard Academy. The locals protested against their presence, and tried to prevent them from setting up their positions.

In another location, Ukrainian airmobile troops did not manage to get an agreement from the locals, and are leaving their positions. (!!!)

Военный дневник Ð˜Ð³Ð¾Ñ€Ñ ÐšÐ¾Ñ€Ð¾Ñ‚Ñ‡ÐµÐ½ÐºÐ¾ - УкраинÑкие погранцы окапываютÑÑ Ð¿Ð¾Ð´ Донецком и роют рвы Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¾Ñтановки роÑÑийÑких танков

In Nikolaev the police prevented a pro-Russian protest from seizing the building. The protesters were mostly peaceful, and it appears there was no violence. After that there was a fight between the euro-Maydan (unclear whether local or bussed in) and the pro-Russian protest. The pro-Russian protest lost the fight.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com ::  Íèêîëàåâå àêòèâèñòàì Ñàìîîáîðîíû Ìàéäàíà è Íàðîäíîãî îïîë÷åíèÿ óäàëîñü îòñòîÿòü çäàíèå ÎÃÀ

The Ukrainian Rada states that they've recaptured the SBU building in Donetsk. However local bloggers disagree, and claim the building is still held by the activists.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíñêèé ñïåöíàç îñâîáîäèë çäàíèå ÑÁÓ â Äîíåöêå îò "âîîðóæåííûõ ëþäåé"
u_96:

In Kharkov the protest is continuing, and a Russian flag hangs from one of the government buildings. The police is present, but they're not stopping the protesters. In fact the police is being met with applause as they walk by. But apparently there was an earlier confrontation with the police, where police from another city (Poltava) was brought in, however no real fight took place. The protesters also started a bonfire in front of the building. It appears that the anti-Maydan (pro-Russian) controls the building. The police still have a cordon in front of the building, but they're not stopping the anti-Maydan from moving right through their cordon...

[ame="http://www.ustream.tv/channel/kharkov-antimaidan"]Kharkov antimaidan on USTREAM: Митинги протеÑта против дейÑтвующей в Киеве влаÑти. Харьков.. Politics[/ame]
romarrio24 | Bambuser

UPDATE: This is unverified info, from bloggers comments. The protesters in Donetsk have left the SBU, possibly under MVD pressure. However the armory there seems to have been emptied out. It appears that additional weapons and ammo were at the arsenals of the SBU, possibly they were concentrated there in case of local unrest. In Donetsk the independence militias have concentrated forces and weapons at the government building. In Kharkov an assault on the government building has supposedly begun. Locals are reporting movements of MVD personnel towards Lugansk.

Now for verified info. Here's photo and video material, primarily Kharkov, but some from Donetsk.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1527675.html

The vice-premier Yarema has stated that authorities will not storm the Donetsk government building.

http://newsru.com/world/08apr2014/donetsk.html

Update2: Kharkov government building has been recaptured by the Kiev government, by force. Over 70 people are arrested, many are wounded. Remember the protesters there were unarmed, and the SBU building was not taken. In Lugansk and Donetsk the situation is different.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1527882.html
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
The USSR and COMECON was a fairly closed economy. Export to the West had nothing to do with the sustainability of those enterprises.
It did in the long term. The Soviet model was failing, & anything dependent on it was doomed. When I visited the Baltics in 1995, there was dereliction long predating the fall of the USSR. The lack of anything new (except for a few very new buildings) was striking. I'd been to Comecon countries in the early 1980s, & then what struck me was the crudeness of many products.

I'm not sure how you would measure diversity. But if you have a metric, I'd love to see it. I'm not disagreeing, Russia definitely has a problem, but their export is also more diverse then people think. So how do we compare?[
72% of export revenues from oil & gas vs no sector con

Iirc it was Latvia that lost 30% of their population in the last 20 years? So was it the USSR that screwed them, population-wise? Or the current immigration patterns? I think it's at least both of those things responsible.
22% in 22 years (census to census, 1989-2011), & it had grown 6.6% in the previous decade.
Note the difference between Latvians & inhabitants of Latvia. And consider differential migration patterns. The Russian (as in ethnic Russian & Russian citizen) share of the population has fallen sharply. It was increasing fast up to the 1989 census, & has fallen by 38.5% since then. That accounts for the bulk of the decline in population. Only 14% of the decline has been from the falling number of self-identified Latvians. Latvians were 75.5% of the population in the last pre-war census, & 52% (& declining) in 1989. How'd you like to be turned into a minority in your own country by a government you thought of as foreign? There were fewer of them than in 1935, & only 5% more than in 1897.

Much the same in Estonia. Three quarters of the fall in population is from emigration of Russians (mostly), Ukrainians & Belarussians.

Remember that very many of those Russians were born in Russia, & had no attachment to Latvia. They were also disproportionately employed in the industries which failed when their markets in the former USSR were cut off (partly because Russia switched to buying from factories in Russia whenever there was that option). Born in Russia, no job in Latvia, don't speak Latvian - why not go home? Some were not welcome, as I heard from the son of a Red Army general in Riga. Many senior officers had retired to Latvia, & generally returned to Russia ASAP. The son told me it was made clear to the family that everyone else was welcome to stay, & he preferred Latvia, because of the more open society, 'even before independence', he said. His father had just started talking to him again, after a few years.

The restoration of expropriated property also encouraged a lot of Russian officials to leave, as their state-provided housing suddenly became the property of the heirs of the former owners, from who it had been stolen by the USSR.

Also remember that the huge increase in Russian population was a deliberate state policy. Factories were built, & the work forces imported. Incentives were given to move to the Baltics. The locals might have preferred not to have so much of that sort of investment.

I don't know much about their pre-WWII economies. I do know that they would have ended up swallowed by Hitler or Stalin, and later put through the furnace of the Eastern Front. So I'm not sure the Soviets are exclusively to blame. That having been said, the Soviets certainly invested a lot into rebuilding the Baltics. Would Finland look as great today as it does, if it had been rolled over first by the Wehrmacht, and then by the Red Army?
I didn't say the USSR was exclusively to blame. But consider what it did, before the Wehrmacht rolled in: it tried to decapitate Baltic society. Tens of thousands were deported, of who many died, & thousands executed, for the crimes of being trade union organisers (of independent unions), journalists, members of political parties, having publicly criticised the USSR or Stalin, being in the army, etc. And their families. 5% of the population of Estonia, & almost 2% of the population of Latvia, was deported (mostly) or executed between Soviet occupation in 1940 & German invasion in 1941. Larger numbers followed after re-occupation in 1944.

The only reason Finland didn't suffer a similar fate was that it fought too well.

However you want to talk about macro-economics, this does not change the basic facts. Life in the Baltics today is far from great. Their infrastructure is aging. The Soviet-era factories are shut down. And how many people does the wireless equipment industry you mention actually employ? The population is still rapidly moving out of the country, and the entire younger generation is learning english, so they don't have to be stuck in their home countries. None of this is a good sign. And if you visit some of the smaller towns and cities, in Estonia at least, things get downright depressing. :(
See above for the population - & would it be any less depressing if they'd stayed with Russia? What are small Russian towns like these days? Collapsing populations, according to the censuses, & from what I've heard, decaying. I read complaints that Moscow gets everything, & the regional income statistics certainly support that, showing great increases in inequality.

They currently have a flood of EU money for transport - but funnily enough, it's not oriented towards Russia. Power generation, ports, telecoms, waste water treatment - lots of infrastructure investment. But mostly not visible to casual visitors.

The pre-war economies of Latvia & Estonia were export & western-oriented, & at a similar level of output per head to Finland. Exports were, as in Finland, largely primary products. As far back as the Empire, they had relatively high literacy rates. Lithuania was poorer & less developed.

BTW, one of the reasons for their rapid re-orientation westwards after independence is that Russia pretty much forced them into it, e.g. by imposing extra tariffs on them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top