Ukranian Crisis

[gf0012-aust]

NATO does have the ability to deny them membership though. Maybe don't make promises you don't intend to deliver on?

And if you do make promises, and then blatantly go back on them, not be so surprised at the latent hostility for years to come.

thats patently ridiculous to do. they are nation states, sovereign states - its says more about the anti-russian view from ex warpac states. for gods sake they have every right to choose how their future evolves

thats just trite nonsense

Honestly Russia has spent the first half of the 2000's trying to come to some sort of arrangement with the west about being included in the global architecture. However nobody was interested. Consequently Russia went out and pursued their own perceived geo-political goals by means similar to those they saw the USA and other major powers using. Imagine the shock and surprise when America can invade countries without a UN sanction, but Russia is demonized for doing the same. When America can support ethnic-based independence movements to create a new country (Kosovo) but Russia is ostracized for similar actions in Georgia. When the west builds a BMD on which they claim they want dialogue and partnership with Russia but then isn't really willing to do anything more then make promises. Again.

If you want to understand the Russian perspective, this is it. If you don't and simply expect Russia to start doing what the west thinks they ought to be doing, you will be surprised and likely angry by the outcome. And if you think Russian treatment of Eastern Europe is in principle different then US behavior in Latin America...

wake me up when the US behaves like the russians in georgia, crimea and ukraine

 

[Feanor]

thats patently ridiculous to do. they are nation states, sovereign states - its says more about the anti-russian view from ex warpac states. for gods sake they have every right to choose how their future evolves

thats just trite nonsense

Expecting the US to keep promises of NATO non-expansion is trite nonsense. Well put.

wake me up when the US behaves like the russians in georgia, crimea and ukraine

Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria... awake yet? Come on.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm not going to get into a debate about this when its apparent that we have opposing views

you can support your position as much as you like, and I will mine, but there is zero point in debating it in here as we will not converge

if the russians had such a decent relationship with all those ex warpac countries then they wouldn't be so eager to seek western relationships. playing the victim card wears thin pretty quickly for them

and expecting them to kowtow to russian demands on how they should run their national strategic interests is demonstrably ridiculous. if the russians hadn't been so oppressive when they had them behind the curtain then things would be different. they're not. reap what you so

arguing that one country did something "off" in the past and makes another current actions defensible died last century.

you know as well as anyone that Putin has raged against gorbachev and yeltsin for what he sees as the emasculation of the old soviet union and harks for the days of russia "strong" again


anyway, I'm done. we're not going to see eye to eye on this and theres not much chance in either of us doing a Saul on the road to damascus

 

[Toblerone]

Why are you so annoyed that a russian leader wants to make Russia great again? :laugh

I think it's naive to constantly declare that sovereign states can do whatever the hell they want, not taking into account the geopolitical situation, their demographics etc. Sovereignty is such a fickle concept. It certainly doesn't mean that activists can overthrow the government and install a new one that is hostile to a russian minority. Sovereignty doesn't mean that you will be allowed to flirt with NATO and think about allowing NATO troops and missiles on Russia's doorstep either.

You have to play by the rules and not upset the balance of power or disregard demographics, unless you are dealing with a drunkard or a stooge. Putin is neither, some violent people in Ukraine broke the rules and now it is a broken country. And where was their sovereignty when the euromaidans desperately were trying to take over government buildings even as people were shot at from unknown snipers? You think that was a grass roots movement by honest, peaceful ukrainians to overthrow the elected government? Heh.

Why weren't you annoyed and worried about Ukraine's democracy and sovereignty when all that was taking place? Seems to me that the mainstream media are the ones that "schooled" you about what is right and wrong.

 

[gf0012-aust]

you obviously didn't make the effort to read my last

read it again

I'm not going to engage in some form of pseudo intellectual debating onanism just to keep the debate going and to keep you happy

and if you keep on poking me directly I will delete your comments because my views have been stated and its not up for some kind of infantile jousting and sport

no response needed and none expected

I have been courteous - don't test me

 

[Preceptor]

Thread locked pending discussion among the Mod team.
-Preceptor