The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Exonian

Member
Does anyone know if the Ukraine has other
T-72 variants apart from the AV/B1/B3/ AMT/AMY/UA1/M1and whether there are photos of all these variants in combat? Do the Ukrainians operate any other T-80 variant apart from the UD?

As far as I can tell the Russians have deployed the T-72B/BI/BA/B3/B4 and the
T-80 variants they have are the U/BV and BVM.

For the unaccustomed keeping track of all these variants [some with minor differences] can be somewhat confusing.
Judging by the lists of Russian losses compiled by Oryx I would say that Ukraine must now possess most variants of T-72 and T-80, and a few T-90.
Quite a few tanks have been recently delivered to the Kharkiv front by the 3rd Army (tank delivery) Corps, then left behind for Ukraine use!

How many captured tanks have so far been turned against their former owners would be interesting to know.
 

seaspear

Active Member
Judging by the lists of Russian losses compiled by Oryx I would say that Ukraine must now possess most variants of T-72 and T-80, and a few T-90.
Quite a few tanks have been recently delivered to the Kharkiv front by the 3rd Army (tank delivery) Corps, then left behind for Ukraine use!

How many captured tanks have so far been turned against their former owners would be interesting to know.
Oryx Project: The Russians lost 333 pieces of equipment in the last week alone. In some places, Ukrainian troops reached the border with Russia - Daily News (txtreport.com)
Planes, MLRS, 49 Tanks: Tracker Reveals Ukraine's Counteroffensive Haul (newsweek.com)
It is likely that captured materials from Russia makes Russia the largest supplier of war materials to Ukraine
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Does anyone know if the Ukraine has other
T-72 variants apart from the AV/B1/B3/ AMT/AMY/UA1/M1and whether there are photos of all these variants in combat? Do the Ukrainians operate any other T-80 variant apart from the UD?

As far as I can tell the Russians have deployed the T-72B/BI/BA/B3/B4 and the
T-80 variants they have are the U/BV and BVM.

For the unaccustomed keeping track of all these variants [some with minor differences] can be somewhat confusing.
Ukraine has the T-72A too I believe. Ukraine operates the T-80BV primarily. There is no T-72B4, though that name was speculated for the "biathlon tank". Russia does have some weird T-80UE, etc. but the difference is mostly minor.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
President Zelensky has stated that Ukraine has received the NASAMS air defense systems. The source is an interview so it maybe some time before he said the relevant part. You can just search the transcript for the words NASAMS though.
The transcript has been updated and the following footnote has been added, clarifying that there was an error in the original transcript:

*Editor's note: The original version of this transcript of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's interview on "Face the Nation" this past Sunday, Sept. 25, 2022, had an error in translation, implying that the NASAMS weapons systems have been delivered. They have not.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In reply to comments about the PRC supplying war material to the Russians, I don't believe that they will supply anything that can be traced back to them. They are still to tied into the SWIFT system and other western financial systems, plus they are reliant upon Taiwan and the US for high performance computer chips. They cannot manufacture their own chips of anywhere near the same resolution of quality.

There's apparently only one company in the world that manufactures the chip printers required and they are a Dutch company who will not sell any of their products to the PRC. The PRC cannot resort to stealing the machinery designs and computer programs etc., because the factory is completely removed from the internet and the security is very tight. At present the one thing the CCP fears is being struck with similar sanctions to those being imposed upon Russia at the moment or on Syria, Iran, and North Korea. At present they have far to much to lose for no gain.
 
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In reply to comments about the PRC supplying war material to the Russians, I don't believe that they will supply anything that can be traced back to them. They are still to tied into the SWIFT system and other western financial systems, plus they are reliant upon Taiwan and the US for high performance computer chips. They cannot manufacture their own chips of anywhere near the same resolution of quality.

There's apparently only one company in the world that manufactures the chip printers required and they are a Dutch company who will not sell any of their products to the PRC. The PRC cannot resort to stealing the machinery designs and computer programs etc., because the factory is completely removed from the internet and the security is very tight. At present the one thing the CCP fears is being struck with similar sanctions to those being imposed upon Russia at the moment or on Syria, Iran, and North Korea. At present they have far to much to lose for no gain.
I agree, but I do worry about the idea that if China pushed this boundary, the US/West would be unlikely to proceed with punishment. As Ananda says, decoupling is a two way street, and such a move would be catastrophic for the west and China. The amount of things I buy from China in any given month is personally scary - and I can only imagine what the impact would be if we tried to cut that link.
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
TEXT DELETED
You are attempting to draw contrasts and parallels where there are none. Dealing with unrest at the US Capitolium was a US internal affair and was dealt with internally, according to law, and in a very civilized and orderly manner.

Ukraine's overthrow of Yanukovich was their internal affair and was dealt with by Ukrainians. Whatever unrest in the Ukrainian East and South was largely instigated by Russian GRU and overexaggerated by Russian media and that is how it was viewed in the West.

I hope that addresses the objections you raise.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian sources claim Drobyshevo is still under Russian control, with BARS-13 holding the area. Note there is a much more serious threat north of Liman. There is also a Ukrainian salient east of Liman, threatening the town with encirclement. It's unclear if Russia will be able to hold the town.

 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Oryx is reporting staggering equipment losses for RU forces in the month of September in the North alone


The Kharkiv counteroffensive forms a significant percentage, with 563 vehicles reported captured in the country since Aug. 29. Click here to see a visual breakdown of all the equipment captured in this time period, compiled by data scientist Ragnar Gudmundsson.

According to combined daily lists by Oryx, from Sept. 1 to 23, Ukrainians captured over 100 tanks, close to 200 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, over 20 command & control vehicles, and dozens of artillery pieces. Close to 100 trucks and jeeps were also taken, along with some more specialized vehicles.

Oryx’s lists include the combined totals for the whole country. But Jakub Janovsky, a military analyst and member of the Oryx team, who compiles these lists, said that 75-80% of these were captured in Kharkiv. “




These are clearly unsustainable even with a mobilization. Those civilians still need to be trained and equipped at a bare minimum. And then they will need a cadre of squad, platoon, company and battalion leadership to effectively lead them once deployed
and they’ll need well supplied Armored vehicles like the 563 recently turned over to the Ukrainian Army
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is likely to be a de facto Russian act of aggression against NATO, with facts to be determined and released — undersea sabotage is another reminder that the attribution problem is not limited to computer networks, but extends to covert action.

The Nord Stream sabotage ups the ante to hybrid ops. This is no longer about plausible, but implausible deniability. BTW, t
he Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipeline are ~75 km apart.

The leaks are 2 very distinctive incidents; and the Danish military has dropped 3 beacons over the leaks to signal the danger.


In view of the possible Russian ‘hybrid ops’ attack on European gas supply infrastructure, this thread is paused, pending a Moderator team discussion on the direction of this thread.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Propaganda is not the basis of my opinion.
Kutschera a number of your posts have clearly crossed from a discussion of military-related affairs into pure political discussion. To top it off you repeat well worn propaganda tropes, and have made comparisons that are plain ridiculous.

1. This is a defense forum with a focus on military issues. Very limited political discussion is sometimes permitted when it ties directly to defense and military matters.

2. This thread is dedicated to a specific military conflict not to a general discussion of Ukrainian politics from the past 20 years.

3. We have expectations of post quality, including using good sources, valid comparisons, and fact-focused discussion.


4. Please heed this warning and adjust your approach. Alternatively your tenure here will be short. We have removed two of your posts deemed most problematic.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
For everyone else, this thread is dedicated to the Russo-Ukrainian war. All discussions of the North Stream 2 explosions, and relations between Russia and the West belong in the appropriate thread. Do not bring that discussion here.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member

This discussion with Michael Kofman took place 3 weeks ago. In addition to widely known stuff about Russian supply and manpower issues; as well as the army being structured for short wars; he also touches on the Wagner Group and the Russian defence industry. He points out that Wagner has been fairly effectively and that it's in competition with the army for manpower. He also dismisses claims that the Russian defence industry is facing issues supplying the army with various things but acknowledges that in the long run it will be a problem.

Like in previous discussions he cautions about hasty conclusions given that the war is several months old and that we're still learning new things about WW1.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The fiction of war ensures nothing is certain

1. Russia’s mobilization will struggle in many respects. However, it will introduce personnel into Ukraine in short order. I think it is important to note that not all will be pushed to the front and some will get more extensive training to be used to regenerate depleted/destroyed BTGs or form new ones.
(a) Mobilization is also being used to help the Russian Army hold on to territory that has taken from Ukraine. Especially, if these mobilized forces are used in auxiliary roles in the occupied territories, including the supply of low grade troops to keep checkpoints manned, the supply of labour for logistics, or as drivers and so on.​
(b) While these are not trained, prepared or equipped, the system is ingesting a large number of people for rear support and some will be pushed to the front as cannon fodder. The majority of Russians who are drafted are average men. But the group of men fleeing the draft appears very heterogeneous in terms of class, age, background.​
(c) Everything depends so much on how local authorities were stealing (or not stealing). People get equipped, and those who are not, are equipped by fund raising from communities are run by Russian nationalists (or just right-wing groups). These Russian nationalists do follow up on complaints and go after the authorities.​

2. Some interesting footage, where Ukraine's "KRAKEN" special unit released a video material from the operation to liberate the city of Balakliya in Kharkiv Oblast.

3. Tank crew proficiency matters in war. Clearly, in the video, this Russian tank crew are more proficient.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There's chatter of conscripts being sent straight to the Ukrainian front without any training. The chatter is coming from Ukrainian sources and I am tending to dismiss it as propaganda because as @Feanor has pointed out, under Russian law conscripts cannot be sent to combat zones outside of Russian territory. However when Putin gets the illegal annexation law rubber stamped by the Duma, then Russian conscripts can be sent to face the righteous wroth of the Ukrainians. Whether they are trained or untrained is another story.

As a veteran myself, I find that practise absolutely abhorrent and the general Russian treatment of their troops as cruel, uncivilised, and criminal. No soldiers / sailors / marines / or aviators should ever be treated like that. No wonder they have a morale problem. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if more than one officer isn't fragged or given a warning shot between the eyeballs by his own troops. Then there is their treatment of POWs. That is a war crime for a start. Just to be clear, I also believe that the American treatment of people captured in the War On Terror is technically a war crime as well.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
There's chatter of conscripts being sent straight to the Ukrainian front without any training. The chatter is coming from Ukrainian sources and I am tending to dismiss it as propaganda because as @Feanor has pointed out, under Russian law conscripts cannot be sent to combat zones outside of Russian territory. However when Putin gets the illegal annexation law rubber stamped by the Duma, then Russian conscripts can be sent to face the righteous wroth of the Ukrainians. Whether they are trained or untrained is another story.

As a veteran myself, I find that practise absolutely abhorrent and the general Russian treatment of their troops as cruel, uncivilised, and criminal. No soldiers / sailors / marines / or aviators should ever be treated like that. No wonder they have a morale problem. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if more than one officer isn't fragged or given a warning shot between the eyeballs by his own troops. Then there is their treatment of POWs. That is a war crime for a start. Just to be clear, I also believe that the American treatment of people captured in the War On Terror is technically a war crime as well.
Im not so sure it is propoganda seeing Russian sources are also quoting allegedly Russian conscipts as being sent with little or no training including some to be deployed into Ukraine on the 29th of September 2022 as per the article linked
Russia to Send Conscripts to Ukraine With Little Training, Old Equipment - The Moscow Times

Even though against Russian law at this stage with how the battle field is I just think they don't give a damn about the law any more but hoping throwing bodies into the fire will stem the tide of Ukrainian gains.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, I also believe that the American treatment of people captured in the War On Terror is technically a war crime as well.
Certainly was. Incidents like Abu Ghraib fed into the insurgent/rebel/terrorist narrative which in turn led to more volunteers.
 

seaspear

Active Member
Mobilized Russians Sent to War After Two Days of Training: Rights Group (newsweek.com)
Mobilized Russians Sent to War After Two Days of Training: Rights Group – DNyuz
Russian soldiers said they were 'fooled like little kids' and 'no one told us we were going to war,' audio obtained by The New York Times shows (yahoo.com)
A comment at the end of this article by Serdaii Haidai of the Luhansk Oblast Military administration stated that " despite the fact that "partial conscription" in Russia was announced only a week ago, the first groups of conscripted reservists have already arrived at the front in Ukraine. "
If true of the suggestions of untrained/ unfit troops being sent straight to battle shows a state of mind and concern for their own soldiers and disregard for any human life .
 

SolarWind

Active Member

Russian FSB savagery, cruelty, and corruption are exposed as victims freed by Ukraine Armed Forces testify. Prisoners were reportedly tortured daily in attempts to extort money for camp keepers.
 
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