S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
At least Korean officials (in that Korean Herald you're putting) are more blatant in media talk all possibility still there including Indonesian withdrawal. Before they are more diplomatic on that issue. This's if we read between the lines, acknowledgement that it's more just matter of financial.

Anyway only got this from local media on Prabowo's meeting in Korea. He's talking with Korean DAPA. Clearly shown he's in more discussion on how to resolve this.

Well...at least its the hard proof that minister Probowo is in South-Korea.

Here are some more updates.
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Well the Korean Media seems already indicating Prabowo's give support already for Indonesia continuation on KFX,


While Indonesian media quoting sources in MinDef saying that Prabowo only talking in more general term of continuing defense cooperation and there're potentials to be develop.

For me I'll wait the official Indonesian statement and definetely not from Korean Media. Altough this from Korean Herald that usually less optimistic on Indonesian Involvement in KFX.

In the end the decision come from Indonesia and not from ROK side. There's no official statement yet from Indonesian side on the position with KFX. However I got a feeling this time they have to make position with this KFX project.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Well the Korean Media seems already indicating Prabowo's give support already for Indonesia continuation on KFX,


While Indonesian media quoting sources in MinDef saying that Prabowo only talking in more general term of continuing defense cooperation and there're potentials to be develop.

For me I'll wait the official Indonesian statement and definetely not from Korean Media. Altough this from Korean Herald that usually less optimistic on Indonesian Involvement in KFX.

In the end the decision come from Indonesia and not from ROK side. There's no official statement yet from Indonesian side on the position with KFX. However I got a feeling this time they have to make position with this KFX project.
Agree, the Koreatimes does not give much more information.
We only know the status for sure if the Indonesian government officially pull the plug out or if they declare officially continuation AND start to pay the debts .

There was somewhere an announcement that the new official name is KF-21 Boromae.
But the link to the Korean language page doesnt work properly.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

You mean this one ? I don't know if it's official yet or not. The Korean media still refer it as KFX. Bemil Chosun despite one of Korean forum with good accuracy, still not immune from fan boys.
Yes, i think it should be this one. Thanks!

"...he promise to further enhance the bilateral relationship. "

That is something comparable with all other visits to other countries for more than a year. Improve ties, strengthen bilateral relationships, increase military co-operation, enhance strategic partnerships.
But none of all these countless visits ended with real contracts or deals.

I expect this visit to South-Korea will have the same result.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I put the short version of the ceremony from you tube.

Haha... Looks like they still have our flag on the jet
Now it's up to Indonesian administration to shown the official position on the project. ROK from beginning up until now still put Indonesia as Partner. It is Indonesia that having ambiguous position.
Guess Bemil was right KF-21 is the official name.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you Arji and Ananda for sharing.
Sorry for my late response, but exactly an hour before the roll out it became very hectic at my workplace....
 

Arji

Member

Here's the full video of the ceremony.

Jokowi gave a pre-recorded speech at around 24:40. Didn't say anything concrete, but still something.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Already night, and got some time lurking on Indonesian defense forums. There's so many over Nationalist forumers that's very sure the Indonesian flag in KFX prototype is sign of done deal Indonesia continues involvement with KFX.

Don't they realize:
  1. KAI put the flag because even under 'renegotiations' part as it is now, Indonesia still officially in the program. That's why they still put Indonesia flag.
  2. There's no official position yet from Indonesian administration on whether they still want the renegotiations, what is the renegotiations results, or Indonesia finally still go ahead under the existing term.
  3. Even Korean media still put that the visit of Prabowo's doesn't mean done deals on the overall projects including KFX and DSME 1400 second batch.
Many of them just don't understand, cause KAI still put Indonesian flag in the prototype fuselage, it doesn't mean anything until Indonesia put the money back in to the project. That's how real world working.

Indonesia only talk so far that of commitment to continue working out the deal with ROK. Prabowo's visit or Jokowi's speech in the ceremony will not mean anything until Indonesia officially recommitted to the project with continue the payment. In the end, this's business. Just like in any busines transaction ; "show me the money" then we can make a deal.

Again if Indonesia finally make decisions to stay in the project, everyone in Indonesian Political circles must realistic on what it's mean. KFX is Korean own project, the IP own by KAI, and Junior Partner is basically under license holder. Thus whatever Tech Transfer being allowed will be under KAI permission.

If you want to have more access and IP rights then you have to put more money cause nothing is free. Korean put money to gain those tech, and it's unrealistic to expect KAI/ROK to give access on all those tech for Junior Partner that only contribute 20% (even this still under renegotiations).

I do hope before, that Prabowo's visit will also provide clear position of Indonesia in the overall projects. However either after the meeting and that Jokowi's speech, there's still no definitive information how Indonesia will proceed. All still generally hanging position like before.
 
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Foodsoldier

New Member
Already night, and got some time lurking on Indonesian defense forums. There's so many over Nationalist forumers that's very sure the Indonesian flag in KFX prototype is sign of done deal Indonesia continues involvement with KFX.

Don't they realize:
  1. KAI put the flag because even under 'renegotiations' part as it is now, Indonesia still officially in the program. That's why they still put Indonesia flag.
  2. There's no official position yet from Indonesian administration on whether they still want the renegotiations, what is the renegotiations results, or Indonesia finally still go ahead under the existing term.
  3. Even Korean media still put that the visit of Prabowo's doesn't mean done deals on the overall projects including KFX and DSME 1400 second batch.
Many of them just don't understand, cause KAI still put Indonesian flag in the prototype fuselage, it doesn't mean anything until Indonesia put the money back in to the project. That's how real world working.

Indonesia only talk so far that of commitment to continue working out the deal with ROK. Prabowo's visit or Jokowi's speech in the ceremony will not mean anything until Indonesia officially recommitted to the project with continue the payment. In the end, this's business. Just like in any busines transaction ; "show me the money" then we can make a deal.

Again if Indonesia finally make decisions to stay in the project, everyone in Indonesian Political circles must realistic on what it's mean. KFX is Korean own project, the IP own by KAI, and Junior Partner is basically under license holder. Thus whatever Tech Transfer being allowed will be under KAI permission.

If you want to have more access and IP rights then you have to put more money cause nothing is free. Korean put money to gain those tech, and it's unrealistic to expect KAI/ROK to give access on all those tech for Junior Partner that only contribute 20% (even this still under renegotiations).

I do hope before, that Prabowo's visit will also provide clear position of Indonesia in the overall projects. However either after the meeting and that Jokowi's speech, there's still no definitive information how Indonesia will proceed. All still generally hanging position like before.
Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again mate? You've already explain your opinion (assumption) about Indonesia commitment in this project. You dont need to post the same opinion over and over again.

No offense
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Because the same thinking with Indonesian enthusiasts (thus means part of public) on the over nationalistic hope still the same. The same unreasonable expectations still there.

For that I put this kind of reminder over and over again. All diplomatic ceremony and commitment still means nothing until Indonesia paid up the bills. Even if Indonesia recommit to the project don't forget that IFX legally is still part of KFX and as Junior Partner means the project ownership and IP rights still own by Senior Partner. Thus everything can be done with IFX will need the Senior Partner agreement and consent. Indonesia wants more rights, then put more money in the project (with ROK permission).

It's not just my opinion and assumption. That's business and legal facts. That's how real world works.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It's just funny that many people see the red-white flag on the prototype as the hard proof, the 100% guarantee that Indonesia is still in the project.

I just wonder, how many months did IPTN-engineers got the chance to join in this project? Did they got the chance to absorb knowledge, expertise and experience and did they really actively participate in the design process or did they only observe?

Also, what if suddenly the Indonesian government decides to return into this project, how much design-work is left over? Maybe the structure of the KF-X is complete, and only the sensors and system development and integration are still in progress.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
what if suddenly the Indonesian government decides to return into this project, how much design-work is left over?
That's why I also saying (over and over again ;)), all DI design work is under supervision of KAI. What DI engineer can or allowed to workout also under KAI permission. That's what Junior Partner means, not different then the International Partners on F-35 program where all the Partners engineering part decide by agreement and supervision of LM. That's why legally the position of Junior Partner will not much different with Under License holder. When you buy under license rights, you're also in sense become partner from the license holder manufacturing ecosystem. If you put more money it can someday got more workshare.

Just like IPTN/DI done with under licensing C-212 first. Now Airbus give DI rights to run the only manufacturing rights of C-212 as NC-212i. Some of NC-212i IP already hold by DI, but the overall IP still owned by Airbus.

Maybe the structure of the KF-X is complete, and only the sensors and system development and integration are still in progress.
If IFX line open in DI, then system integration will be open for DI engineer. It can also open for DI to integrate different system for IFX version, if Indonesia choose to Invest in there. That's part of original agreement sign during SBY era.

However we have seen so many times this administration provide 'diplomatic' confirmation with multiple suppliers, but doesn't follow up the money. For IFX, not only have to paid up the 20% bill (or whatever result of the "renegotiation"), Indonesia need to build it's own production line. That's mean put more money to build IFX assembly toolings and jigs, which's not cheap.

The devil always in details. That details in real world many times can result whether a partnership can still go or not, despite the initial commitment.
 
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chiphocks

New Member
Because the same thinking with Indonesian enthusiasts (thus means part of public) on the over nationalistic hope still the same. The same unreasonable expectations still there.

For that I put this kind of reminder over and over again. All diplomatic ceremony and commitment still means nothing until Indonesia paid up the bills. Even if Indonesia recommit to the project don't forget that IFX legally is still part of KFX and as Junior Partner means the project ownership and IP rights still own by Senior Partner. Thus everything can be done with IFX will need the Senior Partner agreement and consent. Indonesia wants more rights, then put more money in the project (with ROK permission).

It's not just my opinion and assumption. That's business and legal facts. That's how real world works.
the real issue is the money or Indonesian right of this KFX/IFX???

cause i thought Indonesia already have the budget, we just don't give it because all of this issues.
and when you said "Indonesia wants more rights, then put more money in the project (with ROK permission)."
to me it sound like, when Indonesia sign the deal, Indonesia know that Indonesia won't get enough ToT or right of this KFX/IFX
or Indonesia simply got disappointed or didn't understand the agreement.

it's just a wild nubs opinion, but i see this situation is like this
Something happened or changed and Indonesia disappointed cause those 20% becoming (just an example) 4 kinds of profit instead of 7
Indonesia delay the payment
Korea got mad and ask Indonesia, Indonesia respond by asking for a renegotiation by reducing that 20% to 18-19% for those "4 kinds of profit"

cause if it's true, like what u just said, i'm confused about why they don't increase the percentage for more value???
how much do they expected so we can get those right?? afaik this number never being published.
 

Arji

Member
to me it sound like, when Indonesia sign the deal, Indonesia know that Indonesia won't get enough ToT or right of this KFX/IFX
or Indonesia simply got disappointed or didn't understand the agreement.
The agreement was sign under different administration. Current administration might have other priority and/or different judgement with regards to the deal.

I can't remember why it's not paid. As far as I recall, I believe it's not for the lack of money, rather due to the incompetence of the previous defense minister who forgot to submit the request for fund to the Finance ministry or something like that, point is it's some type of administrative neglect. Since then, what I'm guessing is that the current administration saw an opportunity to maybe get a better deal? or reduce the stake cause they see a better use for that fund in other sector.

Feel free to correct me though, my knowledge regarding this is rather shaky.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
You both asking the question that already perplexed Indonesian Defense enthusiasts and Analysts. What's the real intentions of this administration with Indonesian participation on KFX Projects (IFX). Even after Prabowo's attending the launching ceremony and Jokowi's recorded speech in there, there's still no official decision yet.

Personally just as I put in this thread or Indonesian AF thread over and over again, I'm more on cynical Political point of view. For this administration many of them see it as SBY's project, and they don't want to follow it as agreement signed by SBY. They simply doesn't want to give credit to SBY as their Political opponent. If they will continue with the project, then they will make sure they can take some credit by negotiating some aspects of the agreement, to shown public they have 'iron out' SBY mess.

They know very well that with only 20% participation, there will be limited rights on the project. However their internet and media spin doctors already shown the project not beneficial for Indonesia under present contract sign by SBY. So present administration has to 'save' Indonesia interest by more negotiations.

ROK knows well the monetary reason just 'excuses' for contract negotiations. I don't really see how far they can negotiate more rights with only 20% participation (in fact the rumours on Korean sites talk on Indonesia asking more rights but with less monetary participation).

For that, I'm still see all of this just part of their public Political face making. Smearing your Political opponent after all what Politicians do for living. In the end if Indonesia still on the project, the rights will be not much different then the current rights on original contract. ROK at most will give some face saving concession that will not change much in principle. After all, what do yo expect as Junior Partner.

That's why I sometimes laughed with over confidence on some in Indonesian public/enthusiasts that thinking this administration will got big concession to make IFX Indonesian own project from ROK. The project is own by ROK, Indonesia only Junior Partner that have to follow Senior Partner as IP holder on the project. There's no way they will share the main IP ownership to Junior Partner. Unless ROK administration got bonkers, which they're definitely not.

Add:
I also put in either this thread or Indonesian AF thread, if this MinDef/Administration decide to go big with Dasault, there's no money to support participation in KFX/IFX. So for those who supports this project, pray that MinDef will only procured some F-16V/Refurbished F-16. If they go with Rafale, or got off set deals or license assembly on Rafale, forgot this project. There's simply not enough fund available for Indonesia on licensing two different type of Fighters program.
 
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chiphocks

New Member
You both asking the question that already perplexed Indonesian Defense enthusiasts and Analysts. What's the real intentions of this administration with Indonesian participation on KFX Projects (IFX). Even after Prabowo's attending the launching ceremony and Jokowi's recorded speech in there, there's still no official decision yet.

Personally just as I put in this thread or Indonesian AF thread over and over again, I'm more on cynical Political point of view. For this administration many of them see it as SBY's project, and they don't want to follow it as agreement signed by SBY. They simply doesn't want to give credit to SBY as their Political opponent. If they will continue with the project, then they will make sure they can take some credit by negotiating some aspects of the agreement, to shown public they have 'iron out' SBY mess.

They know very well that with only 20% participation, there will be limited rights on the project. However their internet and media spin doctors already shown the project not beneficial for Indonesia under present contract sign by SBY. So present administration has to 'save' Indonesia interest by more negotiations.

ROK knows well the monetary reason just 'excuses' for contract negotiations. I don't really see how far they can negotiate more rights with only 20% participation (in fact the rumours on Korean sites talk on Indonesia asking more rights but with less monetary participation).

For that, I'm still see all of this just part of their public Political face making. Smearing your Political opponent after all what Politicians do for living. In the end if Indonesia still on the project, the rights will be not much different then the current rights on original contract. ROK at most will give some face saving concession that will not change much in principle. After all, what do yo expect as Junior Partner.

That's why I sometimes laughed with over confidence on some in Indonesian public/enthusiasts that thinking this administration will got big concession to make IFX Indonesian own project from ROK. The project is own by ROK, Indonesia only Junior Partner that have to follow Senior Partner as IP holder on the project. There's no way they will share the main IP ownership to Junior Partner. Unless ROK administration got bonkers, which they're definitely not.
based on those data, considering that Indonesia join this program with a lot of limitations in it since the beginning.

ImaginationTurnOn
could it be that the mission actually not to build the KFX/IFX with korea so we able to produce it right after it finished??

but to learn how to design, figured out a way to manufacture a fighter plane, manufacture/integrate the avionics and stuff....
basically is just learn how to do a RnD from scratch to create a fighter plane....
so the next phase is to modify/upgrade/redesign those prototype to meet TNIs requirements
ImaginationTurnOff
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
could it be that the mission actually not to build the KFX/IFX with korea so we able to produce it right after it finished??
Let me put this way. To build aircraft you need learning curve. That's why IPTN/DI began with licensing C212, then move toward JV with CASA for CN-235 then build its own project of N250/270. Now they are relearning again with N219.

KAI begin their learning curve on Jet Fighters by licensing F-5, then F-16, then begin with their LIFT T-50 (still with LM help), developed to LCA FA-50, before they are moving to Gen 4.5 Fighters with this KFX/KF-21 in their own (even that still using foreign tech partners).

Thus as you can see most of aircraft learning curve must begin with multiple under license projects first before you move on with your own design. At this moment DI does not have the learning curve on Fighter Jet yet. During Soeharto time, there's plan to begin learning curve by licensing Hawk 100/200 with plan 40 build in UK then up to 60 under license in IPTN. However the plan got bog down due to financial crisis 1998 and Soeharto down fall. Thus only 40 UK build got delivered.

This involvement with KFX is prepared by SBY administration to give DI learning curve in Fighter Jet. I really doubt that DI will have enough internal know how after one learning curve project to build it's own Fighter Jet.

Look at India, HAL already involve with multiple under license Fighter project from British Gnat, Jaguar, Mig 21, Mig 27, Su-30 before they begin with their LCA/Tejas.
As for China, how many Russian copy that China need to learn first before they can move to their own design ? Similar steps also taken by Japan.

Even for Turboprop Airliner/Cargo IPTN/DI must move with couple learning curve projects first before doing their own design. Fighter Jets will be more complex then Turboprop, that's why KAI and HAL, Chinese, Japan taking more under license projects before begin their own design.

Thus if we licensing KFX as IFX (as Junior Partner we are basically only doing licensing, just like International Partner in F-35), I seriously doubt it will be enough learning curve to build it on our own yet. Besides as I mentioned before the IP rights own by KAI, how DI can legally copy it without KAI concents? So if want to use design based on KFX, you have to work with KAI as design ownership holder.

As learning curve, DI can learn the experience and study manufacturing process, system integration of more complex and advance designs. If after that the next Administrations has political will to pour money for clean new design, then perhaps it can. However it all depend also on how far DI already able to master Fighter design and manufacturing process. Again base on experience from more experience manufacturer, it will take times, much larger Investment to begin your own design.
 

chiphocks

New Member
Thus as you can see most of aircraft learning curve must begin with multiple under license projects first before you move on with your own design. At this moment DI does not have the learning curve on Fighter Jet yet. During Soeharto time, there's plan to begin learning curve by licensing Hawk 100/200 with plan 40 build in UK then up to 60 under license in IPTN. However the plan got bog down due to financial crisis 1998 and Soeharto down fall. Thus only 40 UK build got delivered.

This involvement with KFX is prepared by SBY administration to give DI learning curve in Fighter Jet. I really doubt that DI will have enough internal know how after one learning curve project to build it's own Fighter Jet.

Look at India, HAL already involve with multiple under license Fighter project from British Gnat, Jaguar, Mig 21, Mig 27, Su-30 before they begin with their LCA/Tejas.
As for China, how many Russian copy that China need to learn first before they can move to their own design ? Similar steps also taken by Japan.

Even for Turboprop Airliner/Cargo IPTN/DI must move with couple learning curve projects first before doing their own design. Fighter Jets will be more complex then Turboprop, that's why KAI and HAL, Chinese, Japan taking more under license projects before begin their own design.

Thus if we licensing KFX as IFX (as Junior Partner we are basically only doing licensing, just like International Partner in F-35), I seriously doubt it will be enough learning curve to build it on our own yet. Besides as I mentioned before the IP rights own by KAI, how DI can legally copy it without KAI concents? So if want to use design based on KFX, you have to work with KAI as design ownership holder.

As learning curve, DI can learn the experience and study manufacturing process, system integration of more complex and advance designs. If after that the next Administrations has political will to pour money for clean new design, then perhaps it can. However it all depend also on how far DI already able to master Fighter design and manufacturing process. Again base on experience from more experience manufacturer, it will take times, much larger Investment to begin your own design.
i can understand that PT DI and other supporting BUMN can't achieve it right away, they will need more time and more research to reach that level.

But is it worthed to make those learning process faster by asking more ToT or more right of this KFX by contribute more??
previously it's 20%, then went down to 18% for the same mount of ToT...
let's just say 22-25% for more ToT n right....

even though i believe the next question would be, do we have that much money..??
or how much difference that 5% would make..??
 
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