North Korean Military.

[Firehorse]

Back to NK, I hope this is the right tread for the article:
N. Korea has quietly built long-range missile base
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_go_ot/north_korea_missiles

US: North Korea conducted missile engine test
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916..._missiles_3;_ylt=AtSBPYnziLDq5nC.jDHVq4p2wPIE

They certainly aren't putting all eggs in one basket!

 

[Feanor]

So, I'm going to resurrect this thread. This is for serious discussion of the North Korea military, this is not a North vs South debate, nor is this a place for politics.

The North Korean military, being highly isolated, and highly self-reliant operates 1) a large quantity of very old Soviet gear and 2) some very interesting reworkings of Soviet and Chinese designs and 3) some very bizarre and highly interesting original creations. So there are interesting and relevant things to talk about. Just not politics.

To start off the thread some pics of North Korean twin-barreled AA guns have surfaced. The guns appear to be clones of the Soviet S-60, but of a towed-AA variety, rather then self-propelled. They may be a copy of the ZSU-57-2, which was a Soviet towed 57mm AA gun.

bmpd -

EDIT: Some more interesting materials...

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/205386.html

If you scroll down to picture number 5, you see something that looks a lot like a ZSU-23-4 Shilka. But if you look closely you can tell that it's a twin-barrled (as opposed to a quad-barreled) AA gun. Probably a domestic development on the ZSU-23-2. Or maybe they ran into complications with the quad-barreled design.

Also the missiles in pic number 4 are the S-200VE. The trucks towing them look positively ancient.

Finally towards the bottom is a shot of a BTR-40 from the side. These maybe some of the last BTR-40s still in service, in the world.

Here's a close up of the 170mm self-prop guns, looking externally similar to the Soviet 203mm 2S7 Pion. I understand similar design philosophies, but I wonder what the reason for a domestic alternative was. After all there's hardly a need to reinvent the bicycle. If they wanted a standard heavy arty piece, they could've gone with WarPac standard 152mm, if they wanted something longer range, the 2S7 would have been a good choice. Instead they went with a strange domestic alternative, that clearly was influenced by the 2S7, but is of a strange 170mm caliber.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/229659.html
The 2S7 for comparison: http://www.enemyforces.net/artillery/pion.htm

 

[Netsk]

According to the Finnish aviation magazine 'Siivet' (issue 02/2011) there are reports that MiG-29S modifications have been spotted in North Korea. An upgrade from the A model for sure but still of course not up to the level of latest western aircraft.

The MiG-29S has upgraded flight control systems, weapons systems, as well as new radar that can track and engage multiple targets, an ECM system and can use the R-77 'fire and forget' missile and deliver unguided bombs.

 

[Feanor]

It is possible. North Korea received some MiG-29As from the USSR, and has bought weapons from Russia since then in small quantities. For example they purchased BTR-80s, Mi-17 helos, and other gear. It's entirely possible that they quietly acquired upgrade kits, and possibly performed the modernization themselves. It's not like the MiG-29S is a very advanced plane by today's standards.

Here's a pic of a North Korean MiG-29, variant unspecified.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/156434.html

Also, here's a pic of some very intimidating looking....




Tractors! With rockets. No joke. Take a look.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/70168.html

 

[Netsk]

Here's a pic of a North Korean MiG-29, variant unspecified.

That's a MiG-29A in your link. I actually found some pictures of North Korean MiG-29S models browsing the Russian -speaking internet a little bit, but this forum won't let me include links before I have more than 10 posts (won't even let me quote your link).

But anyway, they do exist.

EDIT: In wikipedia on North Korean airforce there actually is one pic, after aircraft inventory section.

 

[Feanor]

Interesting info. Do you know how they got them?

North Korea didn't seem to have any difficulty buying other military equipment in Russia, and in the early 2000s Kim Jong Il even visited a tank factory (iirc it was OTM) in Russia. I wonder why they haven't gone for an additional Fulcrum buy. Plenty of used airframes are available, and new builds aren't that expensive either.

 

[SouthernSky]

I'm not sure about earlier UN resolutions but one in 2006 at least prohibits North Korea importing combat aircraft.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1718"]United Nations Security Council Resolution 1718 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

A further UN resolution in 2009 extends that embargo.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1874"]United Nations Security Council Resolution 1874 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Feanor]

It didn't stop them from buying some MiG-21s from Kazakhstan earlier. I forget if it predates 2006. But at the same time it shouldn't be that hard for them to back date the contract (like they did for Sudan).

 

[Doom Pig]

It didn't stop them from buying some MiG-21s from Kazakhstan earlier. I forget if it predates 2006. But at the same time it shouldn't be that hard for them to back date the contract (like they did for Sudan).

Apologies for noob kweschun, but is the Mig-29 the best that NK can do for an air superiority fighter? If so, how many do they have? Wondering because NK TO&E is hard to come by, and from what teh google can tell me, it ain't much of an air force.

Thanx!

 

[Feanor]

Apologies for noob kweschun, but is the Mig-29 the best that NK can do for an air superiority fighter? If so, how many do they have? Wondering because NK TO&E is hard to come by, and from what teh google can tell me, it ain't much of an air force.

Thanx!

Yes, and not many. Their airforce consists of mostly 2nd and 3rd gen MiGs. The most modern stuff they have are a bunch of MiG-29As and Su-25s.

 

[Doom Pig]

Yes, and not many. Their airforce consists of mostly 2nd and 3rd gen MiGs. The most modern stuff they have are a bunch of MiG-29As and Su-25s.

Assuming that the North Koreans aren't total idjits (yes yes), then they must know that they'll retain air superiority over Pyongyang for all of ... oh ... 15 minutes against a blizzard of F-16's and USAF-trained fighter jockies.

And I'm fairly confident that a local measure of historical respect will remind them that 1) a prop-driven Corsair whacked one of their premier Mig-15's, and that 2) it took four more Mig-15's to bring that same Corsair down (pilot bailed and was quickly rescued).

Any NK experts out there: Do they seriously expect to do better this time around?

AFAIK, Teh Prez tried at least twice last year to do some face-saving talks with NK. Why the intransigence and bellicosity? After all these decades and after being offered some face-saving olive branches?

 

[Netsk]

I think they know very well they have no chance in air battle. My opinion is that they would just try to use artillery and scud missiles to create as much damage in the South as they could to make the human cost as big as possible, until inevitably loosing the battle. I do not think the North Korean military has a very high moral to fight. The role of the airforce would be pretty much the same as that of Saddams in the Iraq campaigns.

Feanor: They do have Fulcrum-C as well, as discussed ; - )

 

[Feanor]

Feanor: They do have Fulcrum-C as well, as discussed ; - )

Аh, sorry, yes. Some MiG-29S as well as MiG-29A.

 

[STURM]

I think they know very well they have no chance in air battle.

The whole idea is to make it too prohibitive fo anyone contemplating regime change in North Korea and that is why they have spent tonnes of cash developing nukes. Despite all their rhetoric and propaganda the North Korean leadership is under no illusions that they can actually fight America and outh Korea, and actually win. The whole idea is to ensure the continued survival of the North Korean regime/government.

I do not think the North Korean military has a very high moral to fight.

On the contrary, I think the rank and file of the North Korean Army remain very highly motivated. To the average North Korean soldier, the Americans and their 'puppets' the South Koreans [along with the Japanese], are hell bent on threatening and eventually destroying peaceful North Korea, and it was the 'evil', warmongering, 'imperialists' and 'decadent' America that started the Korean War.....

 

[old faithful]

Destroying the North Korean air force, wouldn't take long, they would be paralised in hours, destroying the North artillary, is a different proposition, and South Korea Seoul is within range.

 

[Waylander]

I assume that medium to high altitude bombing with PGMs can be performed at will.
With all the AAA sitting around in the north low altitude and rotary air operations will be a pain to do.

And bad weather, artillery and rocket attacks on southern air bases as well as the time required for other US forces in the Pacific area and CONUS to join the fight may all contribute to a bad standing of southern land forces in the first days.

In the long run or when the north cannot take advantage of strategic surprise the NOKs are going the get hammered to smitherens, although with substantial losses to coalition troops.

 

[swerve]

Destroying the North Korean air force, wouldn't take long, they would be paralised in hours, destroying the North artillary, is a different proposition, and South Korea Seoul is within range.

"Seoul is within range" doesn't really describe the situation accurately.

Seoul is a very big city. Depending on the gun & where it's placed, not all of Seoul would be within range of an artillery piece in Seoul. The nearest N. Korean artillery is about 20 km from the northern edge of the city, but most N. Korean artillery is short range.

Published analyses reckon that N. Korea has 700 (out of 13500 or so) guns & artillery rocket launchers which could reach the northern half of Seoul from N. Korea. But they aren't all packed into the small sector from which they'd be within range. About 300 are thought to be in that sector, mostly artillery rockets. They're kept in hardened shelters, from which they have to emerge to fire.

 

[Waylander]

And ai assume the first thing the SK and US forces are going to do is target these tube and rocket arty pieces and their shelters with ground and air launched PGMs. I assume these difficult to hit firing positions are one if the main reasons for SK to aquire GMLRS and NLOS Spike systems.

 

[Netsk]

The whole idea is to make it too prohibitive fo anyone contemplating regime change in North Korea and that is why they have spent tonnes of cash developing nukes. Despite all their rhetoric and propaganda the North Korean leadership is under no illusions that they can actually fight America and outh Korea, and actually win. The whole idea is to ensure the continued survival of the North Korean regime/government.

Well that is exactly what I said : - )

On the contrary, I think the rank and file of the North Korean Army remain very highly motivated. To the average North Korean soldier, the Americans and their 'puppets' the South Koreans [along with the Japanese], are hell bent on threatening and eventually destroying peaceful North Korea, and it was the 'evil', warmongering, 'imperialists' and 'decadent' America that started the Korean War.....

I think we would still see a high rate of defecting higher military staff, who have perhaps a better idea of the outside world. It's true still that most of the army is completely brainwashed with no sources for outside information.

 

[Doom Pig]

I think they know very well they have no chance in air battle. My opinion is that they would just try to use artillery and scud missiles to create as much damage in the South as they could to make the human cost as big as possible, until inevitably loosing the battle. I do not think the North Korean military has a very high moral to fight. The role of the airforce would be pretty much the same as that of Saddams in the Iraq campaigns.

Feanor: They do have Fulcrum-C as well, as discussed ; - )

So I guess what I need is a 21st C Larry Bond, someone with enough publicly-available insight to knowledgeably state that -- given the available data vis-a-vis balance of forces -- the North Koreans have a reasonable chance of defending themselves without resorting to their nuclear deterrent (and if anyone outside of Korea is assuming that Koreans wouldn't risk vaporizing Seoul in exchange for slaughtering anyone who attacked them, I humbly remind you of post WW2 RoK performance history).

I'm being serious here (as much as an informed layman can be, at any rate). North Korea has a huge (on paper) military force, but it seems to be based on a 50's era mentality that was crushed a couple of years after it was fielded, and not appreciably improved afterwards.

If we proceed from a first-principle of self-preservation, and then work forward to self-aggrandizement, then there seems to be a limit to how much brinksmanship NK leadership can leverage before it becomes (blatantly) self-defeating. Hence my wonderment: WTF are they thinking? How far do they think they can bluff? At what point to they realize that pretending to be in the Major Leagues is NOT the same thing as being in the Major Leagues?