Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Len-Leonardo Radar Collaboration Ready to Strengthen Indonesian Alutsista

This article from West Java provicial sites put information on Leonardo and LEN collaboration for 3D Radar.
This agreement, initially put LEN in charge of maintenance, supporting infrastructure and some local components. However for next stages it will be for domestic (in LEN facilities) fabrication.

Yes, I believe with this Leonardo manage to clinch the deal from competitors like Thales or Raytheon.
LEN already build it's own 2D ground interception radar, however I do believe TNI-AU wants to standardise it's Radar infrastructure to 3D radars.

Just my own speculation, few years back I read in local media how LEN involve with maintenance and capabilities upgrade on old Thales 2D radar installed in Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani Frigates..perhaps from there they begin to build their own version of 2D radars.

 

[ngatimozart]

Not aimed at anyone in particular. We require our posters to post at least two lines of text in their posts. Rule #17 applies: 17. Do not make one-liner posts.

Ngatimozart.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Kompas TV had an interview with staff of the Jokowi Administration regarding the recent Rafale rumors and defense related news. Key points to take away IMO is that like what Ananda has stated before, there is no actual confirmation or intent from the defense ministry to purchase the Rafales and it seems that the hype can be attributed toward sensationalist journalism.

Furthermore, any discussions regarding the purchase of fighter jets and other heavier assets will be discussed this April during the 2021 defense budget hearings.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

"...kontrak pembelian Sukhoi masih on"
Bertemu Menhan Rusia, Prabowo Bahas Pembelian 11 Sukhoi Su-35

Well...until now its still only "talking about", just to reactivate fanboyism of many netizens.
We will see if one day the first Su-35 will be delivered.

 

[Ananda]

Yeah, some in Indonesian military and political factions still in 'hope' for Su-35 procurement in the view of diversification of Military assets.
However Jokowi's it self already told in media his administration official stand on defense procurement. It has to have benefits to local defense industry. This benefits is not only in the of involvement of local industry in assembly/licensing..but can be on maintenance, or involvement in parts supply chain or even tech transfer on other area of defense.

Thus the question is how far the Russian wants to give that, compared to what US or French or other suppliers want to give. Besides this has to be related to overall trade politics. I've talk several pages before, the Flankers procurement problem is not just matter of tech transfer or CAATSA, but more important how we are balancing US trade politics. US by far more important to us on trade and Investment compare to Russia will ever be. This something that some 'idiots' in Indonesian politics 'nationalist' faction and their supporters in media and forums seems don't get it.

There's signs before that Prabowo's potentially will going to bargain with Russia on replacing Su-35 on other assets:
Prabowo Akan Kunjungan Kerja ke Rusia, Beli Misil? - Kompas.com

Kompas put article from MinDef official that put Prabowo's has interest on Missile Technology with Russian. Perhaps potentially this can be a replacement deal to Russia. Let's say same amount of deal as Su-35, but more on missile tech (as we have problem before on getting tech transfer on missile deal with China). Some SSM, some Anti Armoured Missile, or Short Range SAM like Pantsyr ?
It can be more beneficial to us, on cooperation with Russia on missile tech, compared on Su-35 in my opinion.

Thus, there are already signs we are going to bargain with Russia on replacing Su-35 deals with something else. Is Su-35 deals going to be cancelled well? If the administration is consistent with what Jokowi's put in the media as his administration standing on defense procurement, then the chances of Su-35 deal being cancel and replace with some other deal that provides more tech transfer from Russia is increasing.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I just read this...
C295 conducts first wet contacts as tanker | Jane's 360

Of course the C295 doesnt have the fuel capacity and range of a A330MRTT, KC-767 or Il-78, but with our limited budget, the existing fleet of CN235/C295 and the airforce requirement of using tankers on smaller airbases, this can be an option.
Maybe with the C295 as air refueling tanker, the airforce can make a decission later about large tankers.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yeah, some in Indonesian military and political factions still in 'hope' for Su-35 procurement in the view of diversification of Military assets.
However Jokowi's it self already told in media his administration official stand on defense procurement. It has to have benefits to local defense industry. This benefits is not only in the of involvement of local industry in assembly/licensing..but can be on maintenance, or involvement in parts supply chain or even tech transfer on other area of defense.

Thus the question is how far the Russian wants to give that, compared to what US or French or other suppliers want to give. Besides this has to be related to overall trade politics. I've talk several pages before, the Flankers procurement problem is not just matter of tech transfer or CAATSA, but more important how we are balancing US trade politics. US by far more important to us on trade and Investment compare to Russia will ever be. This something that some 'idiots' in Indonesian politics 'nationalist' faction and their supporters in media and forums seems don't get it.

There's signs before that Prabowo's potentially will going to bargain with Russia on replacing Su-35 on other assets:
Prabowo Akan Kunjungan Kerja ke Rusia, Beli Misil? - Kompas.com

Kompas put article from MinDef official that put Prabowo's has interest on Missile Technology with Russian. Perhaps potentially this can be a replacement deal to Russia. Let's say same amount of deal as Su-35, but more on missile tech (as we have problem before on getting tech transfer on missile deal with China). Some SSM, some Anti Armoured Missile, or Short Range SAM like Pantsyr ?
It can be more beneficial to us, on cooperation with Russia on missile tech, compared on Su-35 in my opinion.

Thus, there are already signs we are going to bargain with Russia on replacing Su-35 deals with something else. Is Su-35 deals going to be cancelled well? If the administration is consistent with what Jokowi's put in the media as his administration standing on defense procurement, then the chances of Su-35 deal being cancel and replace with some other deal that provides more tech transfer from Russia is increasing.

Ill will be not surprised if in the end of the term of this current administration (5 years from now) the "kontrak pembelian Su-35" is still "on". And that no other jetfighters are bought.
This current administration, besides an LPD from PAL and 9 EC725 from IPTN, what else did they ordered from abroad?
The 22 Pandur II? Still not yet delivered. One battery of NASAMS? Also not delivered.
And the EH-101.....no, its better not to talk about the EH-101...

 

[Ananda]

Ill will be not surprised if in the end of the term of this current administration (5 years from now) the "kontrak pembelian Su-35" is still "on". And that no other jetfighters are bought.

Let's see after Q1 this year. New budget will be delivered in April..thus any procurement projects will be decided by then. If they behaviour change to treat the procurements as Multi Year Project/Investment..then we can see some changes. However if they still behave on annual budget project..stil based procurement on what we can buy this year thus only looking for annual project (short term project views)..then there's no changes on how they progressing.

Jokowi's already stated that any defense procurement must see as long term investment, thus procurement can progress on multi year project, has to be more detail on long term need, has to benefit the local defense industry, and has to shown cost on long term sustainment..
Then will see if the behaviour of his administration also reflect that.
The first term MinDef clearly only looking for short term project, and how much budget we can spend this year for certain projects. That's why when the Ministry of Finance ask them for more detail reasoning against long term sustainment, they can't answered. This is one of major reason why many procurement projects can't move to implementation.

Let's see how this change.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Last august IPTN launched/presented a new Flying Test Bed CN235-220 with test-registration AX-2301.
PT DI Rilis CN235-220 Flying Test Bed Generasi Terbaru

Does someone has more information about this aircraft?
- Is it a new built one, or is it just a refurbished and repainted old one, like the PK-XNC?
- Whats new about it? Its still a -220...

 

[Ananda]

Whats new about it? Its still a -220...

Pesawat CN235-220 NG MPA - KKIP Komite Kebijakan Industri Pertahanan

Based on what they (DI) put on KKIP website, they call it CN235-220 NG. So far I only see the adjustment on wing side with winglet. Got unconfirmed report on difference in avionics with glass cockpit instrument. As for engine, I suspect still the same type, but perhaps with newer engine management system.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Pesawat CN235-220 NG MPA - KKIP Komite Kebijakan Industri Pertahanan

Based on what they (DI) put on KKIP website, they call it CN235-220 NG. So far I only see the adjustment on wing side with winglet. Got unconfirmed report on difference in avionics with glass cockpit instrument. As for engine, I suspect still the same type, but perhaps with newer engine management system.

The addition of the winglets are actually already done years ago with the delivery of the CN235-220 MPAs to TNI-AL and TNI-AU. And also the cockpits of the recent delivered CN235 to Senegal and the coast guard of South-Korea had more modern instruments.

So i am curious why they suddenly put an NG behind the -220.
Maybe its just a marketing trick like the "NG" from the 737-800NG from Indonesian airlines, which is just stupid.

Hopefully certification of the N219 will be this year, after many years of delay, the last prediction was for certification in end 2019.
PT. Dirgantara Indonesia (Persero)

 

[Ananda]

So i am curious why they suddenly put an NG behind the -220.

Well, like I said no specific details on what's the difference of this CN235-220 NG, as to regular 220. As for this Test Bed CN-235, they only say the purpose to try new equipment for specialise CN-235 like the Gun Ship version they said they are preparing.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well, like I said no specific details on what's the difference of this CN235-220 NG, as to regular 220. As for this Test Bed CN-235, they only say the purpose to try new equipment for specialise CN-235 like the Gun Ship version they said they are preparing.

Ah i see.
Well after reading this...

Ocean Master 400: Radar Intai Canggih Untuk CN-235 220 NG MPA TNI AL

Melihat Daleman Kabin CN-235-220 MPA Terbaru Milik Puspenerbal TNI AL | Radar Militer

It seems that the CN235-220MPAs with the winglets the AL and AU have received since 2013, are already NGs!

So, maybe the new CN235-220NG flying test bed is indeed not to test MPA equipment, but like you said, to test other systems like gun ship components.

 

[Ananda]

3 Jet Tempur Canggih Sukhoi Siaga di Lanud Iswahjudi, Ada Apa?

The whole local forum come to live with this news. They Russian Fan Boys now so sure that Su-35 definitely going to be procured, as putting this three Flankers on ex F-5E/F squadron as the sign the squadron being prepared for Flankers operation.

Again this raised question on how far this administration will be consistent with Jokowi's claim as the framework for defense procurement and Defense Industry development. What are Su-35 or Russia benefit to local Defense Industry so far..? Nothing..

Flankers prove to be costly to operate, but it can be tolerated if there are even some benefits to local Industry from Flankers procurement and life maintenance..
F-16 procurement in 90's provide some work share with DI..LM now provide tech transfer on their MLU being done locally.

French in 90's offered for Super Standard license manufacturing if Mirage 2000 being procured (as competitor for F-16 at that time), and used Super Standard as A-4 replacement.
Points are, either US or French are willing to provide Tech Transfer and Work Share with local Industry...what tech transfer or work share that benefit local Industry for any Russian procurement so far ?

If this administration continue Su-35 procurement with just trade barter deal.. without any tech transfer to benefits local Industry..even in future maintenance..then this administration again showing their inconsistency between their own plan and frame work with the implementation..

I rest my rant on this issue..hope some more sanity can come to this administration.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

3 Jet Tempur Canggih Sukhoi Siaga di Lanud Iswahjudi, Ada Apa?

The whole local forum come to live with this news. They Russian Fan Boys now so sure that Su-35 definitely going to be procured, as putting this three Flankers on ex F-5E/F squadron as the sign the squadron being prepared for Flankers operation.

Again this raised question on how far this administration will be consistent with Jokowi's claim as the framework for defense procurement and Defense Industry development. What are Su-35 or Russia benefit to local Defense Industry so far..? Nothing..

Flankers prove to be costly to operate, but it can be tolerated if there are even some benefits to local Industry from Flankers procurement and life maintenance..
F-16 procurement in 90's provide some work share with DI..LM now provide tech transfer on their MLU being done locally.

French in 90's offered for Super Standard license manufacturing if Mirage 2000 being procured (as competitor for F-16 at that time), and used Super Standard as A-4 replacement.
Points are, either US or French are willing to provide Tech Transfer and Work Share with local Industry...what tech transfer or work share that benefit local Industry for any Russian procurement so far ?

If this administration continue Su-35 procurement with just trade barter deal.. without any tech transfer to benefits local Industry..even in future maintenance..then this administration again showing their inconsistency between their own plan and frame work with the implementation..

I rest my rant on this issue..hope some more sanity can come to this administration.

Nothing is sure yet that the 11 Su-35 will be delivered at last to the TNI-AU. Maybe all Su-27/30 will be moved to Iswahyudi /SkU 14 the coming years, but what will be the replacement? The Su-35 is indeed the most logic choice for SkU 11, but even then, lets wait until the Su-35 really comes.

I have the feeling that if the Su-35 is chosen, the TNI-AU wants to stay at a mixture of a Sukhoi and F-16 fleet, a third aircraft type (Rafale, EF2000, Saab JAS39) will make everything too complicated.
So dont worry Ananda, IF the Su-35 will arrive, our government will order some american stuff after that.

 

[Ananda]

So dont worry Ananda, IF the Su-35 will arrive, our government will order some american stuff after that.

Sandhi, my problem with the Russian procurement is what the benefits for our local Defense Industry. We have MI-17, Mi-35, BMP-3F, Flankers..is there any tech transfer even for Medium Maintenance ? Let alone the Heavy ones.
The F-16 maintenance being done here, even some maintenance for Hawk being done locally..while for Flankers, Mi-35, Mi-17..they don't give tech transfer even for Medium scale maintenance ones..and we have to send it back to Russia, or Belarus for maintenance job.

Thus what benefit we got from Russian procurement, no benefits for local Industry, no cost benefits in maintenance, their operation cost is higher..then why still want to go with Russia.

Some in local media and forums (especially Russian fan boys) argue since we only have 16 Flankers then don't expect Russia to provide tech transfer on maintenance to Indonesia...those are 'idiots' arguments..we only have 12 F-16 before, but LM help us in to set maintenance capabilities. Even during embargoes due to East Timor we still got help from the Dutch AF to help maintenance of those F-16 locally. Dutch AF will not help if some informal nod from US already given.

Jokowi already said that any Defense procurement must in the benefits of Local Defense Industry development. This consistency that I hope being shown. This Su-35 with trade barters only benefit some business close to the administration circle. The barter being divided to several products originated from those business..so what benefits to local Defense Industry..?
Jokowi's specific told that the framework must be beneficial to local Defense Industry..not just any local Industry.
I heard that why trade barter being choose by previous first term ministers due to Russian reluctant from Tech Transfer deal..
So why bother still go with Russian procurement..

That's my beef with the Flankers deal..not on the Flankers it self (despite all the high operational cost..it is still a good fighters)..but more on the consistency of policy to help local Defense Industry development.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes, thats the negative side of the Su-35, very limited ToT.
But still i think seeing is believing, year after year the Su-35 acquisition is moved backwards/delayed.

Btw, do you have any sources about the RNLAF / KLu supporting TNI-AU? In all those years i followed Indonesia's aerospace and defence, i have never heard about that.

 

[Ananda]

Btw, do you have any sources about the RNLAF / KLu supporting TNI-AU? In all those years i followed Indonesia's aerospace and defence, i have never heard about that.

I read it long time ago, during old TSM military magazine (If my recollection correct). This is the era GusDur/Megawati administration, the so called Reformation/Reformasi Administration. We still officially under US Embargo, and the economy in shambles thus we don't have enough Budget to maintain AF fighters on good operational readiness.

The F-5 eventough just got upgrade by SABCA in Belgium still has much of it's spare parts hold in US and Belgium due to embargoes.
The F-16 got some spare parts inventory, but the TNI-AU technicians need technical help. That's where (according to TSM article) the Dutch AF come to help, on Technical sides and some additional spare parts. For me, I believe that the Dutch AF help will not come, unless some informal concents from US already given.

Remember during that time Bush Jr era already begin, and we usually have better relationship with US under Republican administration (in fact during our history only two Democrats President that have relative good relationship with us, JFK and Obama). The embargoes set by Democrats Administration (Clinton) still imposed (due to some Democrats in house and Senate still demand it), but if not mistaken some gesture of reconcile on defense relationship already begin to shown. This help from Dutch AF for F-16 maintenance I believe is one of them.

This is the era where most local media still in hard copies and few on line files put in internet. I'm trying to find most old TSM article on line, but many old TSM articles not being up loaded in Internet. Not surprised though, TSM goes bankrupt and out of circulation before most media began their internet circulation.

I also try to find TSM magazines that I still have, but seems I lost those when I renovated my house. In short, can't provide on line sources at this moment.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Alright.
What is TSM?
I follow Indonesia's defence developments since the '90s, Angkasa, Airforces Monthly, Air International, Flight International, Herkenning, scramble.nl and many others, but i have never read anything about Dutch support towards Indonesia. In that era 1999-2002 Indonesia's image was quite bad in the Western World, we even lost Ligitan and Sipadan, because the Netherlands and the UK supported Malaysia.

So there was no reasons for the Netherlands to support TNI-AU with their grounded american jetfighters.

 

[Ananda]

TSM (Tehnologi Strategy Militer) is actually one of the oldest Military magazine in Indonesia. It's originated in the 80's way before Angkasa.You still can Google it to see some pictures of that Magazine cover. TSM is not circulated much, but I do find they have some access that TNI probably don't share it with other Media, especially in that early Reformation era.

Those F-16 at that time is not completely grounded. Around 4-6 (depend on the sources) still operational capable. Remember the Bawean incident where 2 of our F-16 intercept USN F-18 in Java Sea. That happen in that era, shown some of those F-16 still serviceable during the embargoes.

How some of those F-16 still serviceable during embargoes and low budget era ? By our own resources ? Doubt it..
We are not Iran where Shah before the revolution already invest heavily on Maintenance facilities and even parts manufacturing infrastructure to support their F-4, F-5 and F-14..thus they still can fly and operate long after US put embargoes.

As I have told before, on this one I can't provide on line prove, as it happen nearly two decade ago..and on line article from that era is not much.
This kind of thing will not going to be publicised much.. Western sources should not help Indonesia maintain TNI assets officially..but again without some foreign/Western originated assistance, how we can maintain some of the F-16 or F-5 still operational ? TNI is not known to maintain spare parts inventory for more than a year or two...Hawk 200/100 bit different story since from what I gather the initial deal on those 40 Hawks do include substantial spare parts before the embargoes.

The West does not like Megawati, after all she's Soekarno's daughter and many in West suspicious with her as she always talk on bringing his Father policy back. Their attitude change much after SBY defeat Megawati in election.

As for Sepadan and Ligatan..those Islands are in dispute based on the claim originated from Dutch East Indies vs British Malaya claims. Problem is Malaysia already have people/settlement in those Islands, thus this kind of condition usually give advantage on International Courts.

Politics are always have multiple faces..face in open public, face in grey area, and face in dark area. I say that assistance with our F-16 maintenance during embargoes period belong to grey area deals..not dark deals, but deals that preferred not to be discussed too publicly.
I put the Dutch AF assistance for our F-16 maintenance to shown that compared to Russia (during early years of New Order Regime), the West still provide some assistance to our Defense need even during bad political situations.

In the end, even if we do still add more Flankers and Russian assets, if this administration also put Tech Transfer from Russia at least in Maintenance thus support our domestic Defense Industry, then it's all right for me, cause shown they are consistent with the framework.
However if this deal being done still with that trade barter deal..that again it shows inconsistency of policies.