Indonesian Aero News

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
This is already can be seen how desprate the Russian lobbying to save the deal. I already mentioned there are two things need to be considered:
1. Our dependence to US Financial System, Trade and Export Access is far exceed our similar dependence on Russian ones,
2. This deal does not benefit anything to development of our own Defense Industry. Only benefit some companies that close to administration inner circle, especialy on the first term.

One thing that article that be noted is the mentioned of Indonesian Mindef attraction to F-35 program. So far Min-Def more talking on Viper or Rafale as alternative to Su-35. This article seems indicating Mindef ask F-35 as compensation to drop Su-35.
Yes, i just read this.
But i dont understand why i took so many years of proud announcements of the Su-35 acquisition program, then denial and then again proud announcements and promises that it will be delivered soon, until the government make the decision to cancel it in the end.

Come on, do they just recently discovered that american arrogance forces us to obey them like a little dog?


Btw this part also surprises me:
"Pada Februari lalu pejabat itu mengatakan, Amerika juga menekan Indonesia untuk meninggalkan pembicaraan dengan China untuk mendapatkan beberapa kapal patroli angkatan laut dengan sekitar US$ 200 juta."
Since when are this negotiations started?
This is really the most stupid acquisitionplan in decades!
1. Why buying those patrolboats if multiple Indonesian shipyards can build it also?
2. Do they forgot which country sent their coast guard vessels to protect their fishingboats in our ZEE in the Natuna Sea?
3. Those patrolboats will be of Made-in-china quality.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
But i dont understand why i took so many years of proud announcements of the Su-35 acquisition program, then denial and then again proud announcements and promises that it will be delivered soon, until the government make the decision to cancel it in the end.
Because it take that years to get rid of previous Defense Minister and Trade ones ;).
Like I said many times before, this deal have so many factions that involves in Administration and Parliament that fight so hard to keep it going.

This Su-35 deal structure reflects regression on government accountability of This administration first term compared to previous administration. Everyone knows the Barter deals involved some 'pie' sharing between 'interest parties' on supplied goods involved in barter agreement.
The moment US put CAATSA in place, the Russian and 'interest parties' in Indonesia knows they're facing big problem. That's why I believe in the end of First Term, the interest parties try hard in media and on line campaigning to close the deals and payment. Thank God some in administration (including in Finance Ministry) manage to hold it off.

For me, it's not the matter of Su-35 it self, but more on how the deal being plan, construct and manage. Again, if by political agreement already being agreed to build and promote Defense Industry on any Defense procurement. Then Su-35 deal should not be in Barter, but should include Russian off set with Local Defense Industry on Technical Investment. It can be not related to Su-35, but can be on other assets or Tech.

However Rosoboron already being known as not big on that, cause it self is not considered an 'accountable' and also full of 'interest' parties themselves. So if we see their deal throughout the world always deals involving more 'direct' and quick payments.
Something that attractive to the 'factions' that like to do business with Rosoboron.

As for that China deals, I don't think it related to us buying Chinese boats. More to us getting Chinese weapons and systems to the patrol boats build domestically.
The first batch of KCR 40/60 are using many Chinese weapons and systems. The newer batch now mostly using Euro weapons and Systems. Perhaps that related on the pressure on using less Chinese weapons and Systems.

However I do believe it is also related to TNI it self that did not want to use much Chinese origin weapons and systems.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
...Indonesian Mindef attraction to F-35 program. So far Min-Def more talking on Viper or Rafale as alternative to Su-35. This article seems indicating Mindef ask F-35 as compensation to drop Su-35.
Indonesia is so large with so many islands to protect that from my perspective, Indonesia needs to increase its fleet to above 100 fighters (excluding the 16 T-50Is), buy 4 tankers and and 2 AWACS before even looking at the F-35. Until the TNI-AU becomes a network centric force, it is not good value for money, as operating costs are significant.

Both Australia (with the Super Hornets & Growlers) and Singapore (with the F-15SG) took intermediate steps before joining the F-35 buyers club.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia needs to increase its fleet to above 100 fighters (excluding the 16 T-50Is), buy 4 tankers and and 2 AWACS before even looking at the F-35.
That's what bit surprised for me that Bloomberg talk about TNI-AU interest on F-35. So far F-35 is not in the talk that come out, it's either F-16V, Su-35 or Rafale.
Still it's in my opinion all that is part of bargaining. Once I read in Media of an Air Force spokesman talk on F-35. Seems they only look on F-35 after they introduce KFX/IFX (if the Indonesia still in the program) or in 2030 horizon.

I already put the picture below in this thread some time ago last year when Boeing delegates meet Air Force and MinDef officials. I do believe if there's budget for either Rafale or F-35, those two in the attached picture will take more priority.
They will bargain for more attractive financial package if they drop Su-35.
 

Attachments

ChestnutTree

Active Member
I assume it might have something to do with the recent plan of acquiring 2 squadron's worth of F-16V's, along with the subsequent plan to upgrade all existing airframes to the Block 72 standard. Considering a lot of Indonesian politics rely on jingoism filled announcements to save face, I would assume the 2 squadrons of F-16V's was either the actual plan or simply a backup in case the Flanker deal fell through.


In either case, I eagerly await on seeing what would be arriving in the coming years.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
That's what bit surprised for me that Bloomberg talk about TNI-AU interest on F-35. So far F-35 is not in the talk that come out, it's either F-16V, Su-35 or Rafale.
Still it's in my opinion all that is part of bargaining. Once I read in Media of an Air Force spokesman talk on F-35. Seems they only look on F-35 after they introduce KFX/IFX (if the Indonesia still in the program) or in 2030 horizon.

I already put the picture below in this thread some time ago last year when Boeing delegates meet Air Force and MinDef officials. I do believe if there's budget for either Rafale or F-35, those two in the attached picture will take more priority.
They will bargain for more attractive financial package if they drop Su-35.
In my opinion its foolish to request for the F-35.
1. We dont have the budget for it (even the Su-35 acquisition program and the KFX development went not smoothly because of the lack of political willingness to spend enough money on defence).
2. The US dont want to sell such a hightech capable weaponsystem to Indonesia.
3. Even if the US allow us to buy the F-35, it will take so many years until the first F-35s are delivered, and the Su-35s were to be ordered to replace the grounded F-5E/Fs.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Both Australia (with the Super Hornets & Growlers) and Singapore (with the F-15SG) took intermediate steps before joining the F-35 buyers club.
As far as Australia is concerned, this was accidental, not a deliberate intermediate process. Australia was forced to retire the F-111 early and the Supers were purchased to fill the capability gap until the projected replacement time. The Growlers were purchased to increase the long term viability of the Supers after it was found that converting the prewired 13th to 24th Supers to Growlers would be nearly as expensive as just as buying new ones and potentially leave us with too few air frames

The F-35 was ordered FIRST

Oldsig
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
As far as Australia is concerned, this was accidental, not a deliberate intermediate process. Australia was forced to retire the F-111 early and the Supers were purchased to fill the capability gap until the projected replacement time. The Growlers were purchased to increase the long term viability of the Supers after it was found that converting the prewired 13th to 24th Supers to Growlers would be nearly as expensive as just as buying new ones and potentially leave us with too few air frames

The F-35 was ordered FIRST

Oldsig
Thanks the correction. Much appreciated.

Perhaps I should have said the intermediate platforms aided with the transition and reduced pressure for early IOC of the F-35 for both Australia and Singapore?
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's what bit surprised for me that Bloomberg talk about TNI-AU interest on F-35. So far F-35 is not in the talk that come out, it's either F-16V, Su-35 or Rafale.
Still it's in my opinion all that is part of bargaining. Once I read in Media of an Air Force spokesman talk on F-35. Seems they only look on F-35 after they introduce KFX/IFX (if the Indonesia still in the program) or in 2030 horizon.

I already put the picture below in this thread some time ago last year when Boeing delegates meet Air Force and MinDef officials. I do believe if there's budget for either Rafale or F-35, those two in the attached picture will take more priority.
They will bargain for more attractive financial package if they drop Su-35.
I think that Indonesia should forget about buying the F-35 at the moment. However, an E-7A Wedgetail acquisition is an absolute necessity along with an A2AR capability. I would not go with the KC-46 because it is to risky at the moment and Indonesia cannot afford risky programs. Instead I would go with the Airbus A330 MRTT / KC-30 MRTT. It's in service with the RAAF & RSAF locally and well proven in service. I'd forget about the SU-35s completely and bring all your F-16s up to the F-16V configuration. If you need to acquire more fast jets, acquire either used F-16s and upgrade them or new F-16Vs. Do the upgrades locally even if its under LockMart supervision, because you'll gain transferable skills in that field. The Russophiles in the TNI-AU will just have to accept that they can't win every fight and that US / western gear is of better quality and in most cases better supported than Russian or Chinese gear. It actually comes down to Value for Money.
 

Lone Ranger

Member
I would not go with the KC-46 because it is to risky at the moment and Indonesia cannot afford risky programs. Instead I would go with the Airbus A330 MRTT / KC-30 MRTT.
Based on a study (sorry, it is in Bahasa) conducted by Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU) on KC-46, IL-78MK & A330 MRTT, they assessed that both KC-46 and A330 MRTT have the same capabilities (relatively). While A330 MRTT surpass KC-46 in non-technical matters such as - less likely to be embargoed; KC-46 has the advantage over A330 MRTT as - it can operate from 31 (out of 36) air bases owned by the Indonesian Air Force while only 19 for A330 MRTT- due to weight difference between the two. Another consideration that pushes their favor to KC-46 was that they predicted the price of KC-46 tankers to be cheaper than the A330 MRTT- possibly a big draw for TNI AU(?).
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Based on a study (sorry, it is in Bahasa) conducted by Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU) on KC-46, IL-78MK & A330 MRTT, they assessed that both KC-46 and A330 MRTT have the same capabilities (relatively). While A330 MRTT surpass KC-46 in non-technical matters such as - less likely to be embargoed; KC-46 has the advantage over A330 MRTT as - it can operate from 31 (out of 36) air bases owned by the Indonesian Air Force while only 19 for A330 MRTT- due to weight difference between the two. Another consideration that pushes their favor to KC-46 was that they predicted the price of KC-46 tankers to be cheaper than the A330 MRTT- possibility a big draw for TNI AU(?).
Ok, fair enough. But I just wonder if the price quoted then still stands now, considering that Boeing has taken a huge loss on their fixed price contract with the USAF. They'll be looking to recover that somehow and foreign exports would be very significant way of doing it. Secondly, with the A330 MRTT you can utilise used airline A330 aircraft as donor aircraft so that will cut the costs down. Just my 2 cents worth and looking at options.
 

ChestnutTree

Active Member
Another point from that study also cites that the TNI-AU has more experience operating and maintaining Boeing aircraft over the Airbus. They also concluded that local MRO's such as GMF AeroAsia would have an easier time maintaining the KC-46 over the Airbus due to the sheer number of Boeing aircraft being operated in the country. Furthermore the idea of procuring an all Boeing fleet of support aircraft (the E-7A, P-8A, and KC-46) through bulk buying likely has made an impact in the study.

It all just comes down to cost at this point.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
The Russophiles in the TNI-AU will just have to accept that they can't win every fight and that US / western gear is of better quality and in most cases better supported than Russian or Chinese gear. It actually comes down to Value for Money.
Actually from what being come out in media or from 'unofficial' sources, you will find the most of Russophiles is not in TNI AU. In fact the 'negative' comments on Flankers (the high cost of operations, the difficulty in maintenance, the problem on data networking) come from sources inside TNI-AU.
Mind you that by first decade of 2000, TNI-AU just glad to get the Flankers, because that's what available for them at that time.

If no Asian Financial crisis, Hawk 200 probably become the back bone of TNI-AU perhaps around 5 sq and perhaps another two or three sq of F-16. East Timor probably will create some tensions, but will not be long since without Asian Financial crisis, Soeharto will still in power by beginning of 21st century and there will be no East Timor referendum (he will still in control of Indonesia with relative stronger Economy compared to what happened after Asian Economy Crisis).

Points is, Habibie as Soeharto second hand already in talk with BAe for license production of Hawk 200 (which BAe agree and plan to start after first batch of 40 being delivered), and rumours he's also in talk with LM on more IPTN (now DI) involvement in to F-16 value chains.
This shown that TNI AU is always western minded. Even with Flankers in inventory now days, the maintenance and support infrastructure is also Western based.

The Russophiles come mostly from political factions in Parliament and some old timer Generals that fanning the idea of Su-35 and Flankers family superiority for balancing power in region.
For me, it's more business oriented behind this. The Russophiles like dealing with Rosoboron due to 'bit' shady less accountability on their business practices. They don't care on how it's going to be a burden to TNI AU (due to TNI AU support infrastructure already build for Western assets) or how to support local defense Industry (since almost no Russian assets procurement involving local defense Industry Partnership as it should be).

As for Boeing's deal..well I just speculate based on Bloomberg article. MinDef will ask better financing package from US as the price for them to drop Russian deals. Still Airbus will not standing by. Like I said so many times, it won't be easy to beat Airbus in Indonesia aerospace procurement due to Airbus close relationship with DI. DI already shown to media the idea of C295 AEW, being assemble and part manufacture in DI facilities. That's strong political points to beat.
Will just have to see how it's developed

Note:
Why I said if no Asian Financial Crisis and Soeharto still in power Hawk 200 will be the back bone and most numerous assets in TNI-AU and not F-16, it come to two thing:
1. Habibie aim to get not only license to produce Hawk 200, but also Co-producers of that Light Fighter.
2. Hawk 200 is much more Economics to maintain, thus will enable TNI-AU to operate relative large number of them.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Thats why i can not believe that the Netherlands just donated or sell spare parts to us, there is no reason to do that.
Being piss poor as a country also means that there will be a very limited amount of flying hours a year for each aircraft. An F-16 needs a phase-inspection every 200 hours, if each aircraft only fly 20-50 hours a year, it also means that you can wait at least 4 years until there will be a 200-hours phase inspection. I am sure that the TNI-AU had enough spare parts for these years. Some defect components need inspection or repair abroad if there is a malfunction, but hey, we all know that aircrafts are continuously cannibalized for spare parts in such situations.

@Sandhi Yudha you can take a look on Daedalus site. Daedalus is MRO from Netherlands that being used mostly by Dutch AF to support their F-16. You can see between 2000-2002 they've done Falcon Up job for TNI-AU F-16.
This can't happen without US unofficial permission at least, since that time TNI still under US embargoes officially due to East Timor.

Got this when browsing forums on Indonesian Military. Seems there are questions similar on yours that asked how US/West support on Indonesian F-16 even during embargoes.

This related to what I already stated several times on how TNI-AU support infrastructure already on US/West assets. Some in Indonesia always talk of era on Soekarno's where we used mostly Soviet assets. However those are long gone, and the support infrastructure for Russian Fighter now need to build from scratch. Local Industry MRO also only capable handling US and Western items.

This is why I don't like on Flankers and SU-35 deals, those deals only talk on getting the Fighters but not on how to build support infrastructure. Results on high maintenance cost, due everything on schedule maintenance must be done outside Indonesia.

Different condition apply to Vietnam AF as example. Despite US seems also offered F-16V to them, and the enthusiasm on their media and forums. I still see the VNAF bit hesitant since their support infrastructure build for Russian assets. That's why for them SU-35 I believe will be more cost effective compared to US Fighter.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Just a quick post.

I really hope that the development of the PUNA Elang Hitam will go faster and smoother than the N219.
At least the certification will not be as problematic and sophisticated as an airliner.
 

r0m8470

Member

@Sandhi Yudha you can take a look on Daedalus site. Daedalus is MRO from Netherlands that being used mostly by Dutch AF to support their F-16. You can see between 2000-2002 they've done Falcon Up job for TNI-AU F-16.
This can't happen without US unofficial permission at least, since that time TNI still under US embargoes officially due to East Timor.

Got this when browsing forums on Indonesian Military. Seems there are questions similar on yours that asked how US/West support on Indonesian F-16 even during embargoes.

This related to what I already stated several times on how TNI-AU support infrastructure already on US/West assets. Some in Indonesia always talk of era on Soekarno's where we used mostly Soviet assets. However those are long gone, and the support infrastructure for Russian Fighter now need to build from scratch. Local Industry MRO also only capable handling US and Western items.

This is why I don't like on Flankers and SU-35 deals, those deals only talk on getting the Fighters but not on how to build support infrastructure. Results on high maintenance cost, due everything on schedule maintenance must be done outside Indonesia.

Different condition apply to Vietnam AF as example. Despite US seems also offered F-16V to them, and the enthusiasm on their media and forums. I still see the VNAF bit hesitant since their support infrastructure build for Russian assets. That's why for them SU-35 I believe will be more cost effective compared to US Fighter.
I've been out of the country so long and completely omitted the 'other business interest' aspect about the Sukhois. I guess back in the early 2000s when TNI-AU availability was at its lowest, any modern jets would be a welcome addition just to maintain some level of proficiency.

Aside from logistics angle, not sure if TNI-AU ever develop meaningful operational doctrine for the Flankers. There are ordnances - and lots of variety - but never heard them being put on live-ex, aside from high-alt bombings w iron bombs.

They are in a good spot IMO - with a US admin that's hungry to make deals and show economic progress, in an election year, with impending lockdown looming. A fighter deal would be seen as a win, a chance for TNI-AU to chart a future path where F-16V can co-mingle with with KFX, bridging the transition or complement one another, and open the door to incorporating new tactics with BVR, PGM and maritime strike ordnance.

The current (Indonesian) admin seems to be pretty good in building out other infrastructures (trans Java toll), rail projects (high speed, light or mass-transit), but why on defence it seems to be always hobbled?
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
The current (Indonesian) admin seems to be pretty good in building out other infrastructures (trans Java toll), rail projects (high speed, light or mass-transit), but why on defence it seems to be always hobbled?
My own observation is that the TNI hobbled themselves. Oh, there are always politicians who complain that "defense is so expensive, surely we don't need that much", but this is basically the default in most countries, so we'll always have to deal with that to some extent anyway. This can be worked around and linking arms imports deal with domestic defense industry development is such an example of working around that. By stressing on all the counter-trade and transfer of technology and industrial partnership we can usually get the politicians to agree that spending on defense is a worthwhile investment.

But the Indonesian Army has a disproportionate influence in decision-making compared to the Air Force and Navy, and the Indonesian Army's top brass do not understand modern warfare. They're stuck in the guerilla warfare mindset. Either as the guerilla or as counter-guerilla. Consider our history of warfare:
  • The Independence War period (1945-1949). Indonesian Army was conventionally weak against the Dutch, forcing the Indonesian Army to adopt a mostly guerilla warfare. The few examples of conventional warfare resulted in major losses (Surabaya 1945, Bandung 1946).
  • The various rebellions (lots immediately after independence, still a few today). Indonesian Army was/is conventionally overwhelmingly strong against the, forcing OPFOR to adopt a guerilla stance, which in turns make the Indonesian Army adopt a counter-guerilla stance.
  • Trikora in West Papua (1961-1963). Indonesia had overwhelming logistical advantage that the Dutch could not counter, so the Dutch settled after a few minor clashes.
  • The Confrontation versus Malaysia (1963-1966). For various reasons neither side wanted open war, so the actual conflict was special-ops guerilla vs. counter-guerilla tactics.
  • East Timor (1976-1999). The Indonesian Army had overwhelming conventional strength. So the Fretilin had to use guerilla tactics and Indonesia counter-guerilla tactics. Later on Indonesia used local militias, but this also falls under counter-guerilla tactics. When the referendum decided on independence some army brass considered fighting anyways, but luckily the government told them NO.

So given this history the top army brass developed this mindset that the most important thing for the country is total people's defense (this is an inexact translation, the full Indonesian term is "sistem pertahanan dan keamanan rakyat semesta", but Google for sishankamrata instead, since no one uses the full name). If they can get that going then for the above scenarios victory is guaranteed. Actual warfare with an equal or near-equal OPFOR? What's that? Never had one. Intellectually they have the case studies, but at heart they don't get it.

And since the army has disproportionate influence, everyone else gets impacted. The army gets about half of the defense budget, sometimes more. The previous defense minister, Ryamizard Ryacudu, fought his hardest not to get the Su-35, but to get his "bela negara"/defend the country idea implemented. If it went through billions of dollars would have been spent on what's essentially two weeks of camping and marching. This was sold as an ideological training program for 100 million Indonesians who are fit to serve. Because according to him the biggest threat to the country isn't the US or China or any actual country. The biggest threat to the country is communism, radicalism, LGBT, and all those ideas. Thankfully he only got a much reduced program for civil servants that will only cost us millions of dollars per year, but a lot of political capital was wasted on him pushing that and saner minds telling him no.

The current defense minister, Prabowo, is also an army brass of the same mold. He hasn't done much yet, so if I want to be fair I can't judge him yet. But this year the Indonesian Army's budget allocation is approximately 56% of the defense budget, so I'm skeptical that he will be any different. In my civilian opinion, if the Indonesian Armed Force wants a faster transformation into a modern army, all of the current army generals need to be gone first, because their outdated mindset is holding the rest back. The army also needs to come third after the navy and air force, not first. Alas, every organization fights first and foremost for the survival of its organization, so the Indonesian Army will very much resist their hardest against any attempt to reduce their influence. And the top army brass will fight to their bloody end against any attempt to replace them with the younger generation. It might happen anyway, eventually, after they all die from old age (retiring alone isn't sufficient, they just enter politics and perpetuate the same mindset), but that's going to take maybe twenty years or so. And there's no guarantee that the younger generation will be any better, but at least we can hope.

Adding to that is the factionalism I have mentioned before. For example, it's bad enough that the air force got the smallest budget, but there's no unified agreement on what to spend it on. So for two-three years maybe the Russophiles held sway at the top, so they pushed for Su-35, but then two-three years passed and their guys retired and then the F-16 faction was at the top, so they focused on F-16. It took until 2018 to actually put the Su-35 contract on paper when the procurement effort started in 2011. Meanwhile in the defense industry Indonesian Aerospace would really rather deal with Airbus so they pushed for Eurofighters, and while they aren't the armed forces they do have some influence. C-17 vs. A-400M. C-295 vs. C-27. You can see that in the navy too, with no unity on the submarines (South Korea? Russian? French?), missiles (French? Chinese? American?), frigates (Sigma? Iver?), etc. Even the army isn't unified on what they want. Most people didn't pay attention, but for a good ten years there was no agreement on what armoured vehicles they should get and how many. The current Harimau and Pandur II deal may look like they have solid backing, but there were years of internal wrangling behind it. So the government looked at the internal jockeying and said, "What? You guys haven't decided what you want yet? Okay, we'll hold on to the money until you've settled on something. Let us know when."
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Good deductions @tonnyc that's why on several of my previous posts, I stated that I like the way SBY did. Put civilian in MinDef possition, and seems so far even with much less defense budget, they can doing more concrete planning and Implementations compare to present Administration. Especially the first term Defense Minister.

Prabowo's has been missing from media from some time, and let his Deputy a civilian with OT background talking to media. Rumours saying that he's gathering all TNI planners from MinDef and all three branches to finalise Planning and Implementations schedule for next five years.
If that's true, than he wants to lock down all this term MinDef program from beginning.
Then if this doing consistent what ever come out, in my opinion already good progress for discipline multi-year program and budgeting.

As his Deputy, so far he's the one that talking to media and two thing (including today's article) that create a buzz:
  1. Few days ago he stated that all procurement need to involved local Defense Industry as much as possible. Thus he's champion on PAL build two Denmark's design Frigate (seems Iver based), since this will build completely by PAL facilities.
  2. Today there's article quote him that officially Indonesia has not drop Su-35 order, however he admitted there's several problem on finishing Su-35. Then he put forward another statement MinDef looking for potential F-35 deal as alternative


That last article shown typically Indonesian official statement that at first diplomatically stating they are not dumping one supplier yet, but addmiting some problem arise, then put another statement on potential looking to rival supplier with an open bargaining possition.

From what I gather the budget for 2 F-16V sq is separate from budget of 1 sq Su-35. There's already from first term talk (some already I put before) that TNI-AU look to increase their Fighter ORBAT from current 8 sq to 10. Thus the 2 sq of F-16V will be the plan expansion from 8 sq to 10.
In short if that's plan still follow, the plan F-16V is not alternative to Su-35.

Perhaps this's why The French talking on 3 sq of Rafale after Prabowo's visits, which perhaps shown Prabowo's looking on alternative of 2 F-16V sq and 1 Su-35 sq toward 3 sq of Rafale.
Again all this still must be considered as part of planning and looking on alternative.

That's why the need for multi-year budget and planning need to be done thoroughly and with much discipline, since this probably need to be carried on to the next President term.

Just to remind, the current orbat of 8 sq consist of 2 sq of F-16 A/B/C/D, 2 sq of Hawk 200/100, 1 sq Flankers, 1 sq TA-50, 1sq of Super Tucano, and 1 sq 'defunct' F-5 that supposedly replace by Su-35.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

@Sandhi Yudha you can take a look on Daedalus site. Daedalus is MRO from Netherlands that being used mostly by Dutch AF to support their F-16. You can see between 2000-2002 they've done Falcon Up job for TNI-AU F-16.
This can't happen without US unofficial permission at least, since that time TNI still under US embargoes officially due to East Timor.

Got this when browsing forums on Indonesian Military. Seems there are questions similar on yours that asked how US/West support on Indonesian F-16 even during embargoes.

This related to what I already stated several times on how TNI-AU support infrastructure already on US/West assets. Some in Indonesia always talk of era on Soekarno's where we used mostly Soviet assets. However those are long gone, and the support infrastructure for Russian Fighter now need to build from scratch. Local Industry MRO also only capable handling US and Western items.

This is why I don't like on Flankers and SU-35 deals, those deals only talk on getting the Fighters but not on how to build support infrastructure. Results on high maintenance cost, due everything on schedule maintenance must be done outside Indonesia.

Different condition apply to Vietnam AF as example. Despite US seems also offered F-16V to them, and the enthusiasm on their media and forums. I still see the VNAF bit hesitant since their support infrastructure build for Russian assets. That's why for them SU-35 I believe will be more cost effective compared to US Fighter.
Thank you for the link, it was indeed unbelievable that the RNLAF supported and donated to TNI-AU, and it was Deadanus which perform the Falcon-Up program. I still remember that after the MACAN-project, TNI-AU wanted to update and overhaul the F-16s, but in that period there was no much information and updates about this project in the mass-media. Just after the krismon it was also doubtful if this project was really carried out.

According to Russian sources the Indonesian government hasn't cancel the acquisition officially.
I hate such situations, buy it or cancel it!

But one thing isn't clear for me, for what reason has the airforce transfered a couple of Sukhois to SkU 14 in Madiun?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Good deductions @tonnyc that's why on several of my previous posts, I stated that I like the way SBY did. Put civilian in MinDef possition, and seems so far even with much less defense budget, they can doing more concrete planning and Implementations compare to present Administration. Especially the first term Defense Minister.

Prabowo's has been missing from media from some time, and let his Deputy a civilian with OT background talking to media. Rumours saying that he's gathering all TNI planners from MinDef and all three branches to finalise Planning and Implementations schedule for next five years.
If that's true, than he wants to lock down all this term MinDef program from beginning.
Then if this doing consistent what ever come out, in my opinion already good progress for discipline multi-year program and budgeting.

As his Deputy, so far he's the one that talking to media and two thing (including today's article) that create a buzz:
  1. Few days ago he stated that all procurement need to involved local Defense Industry as much as possible. Thus he's champion on PAL build two Denmark's design Frigate (seems Iver based), since this will build completely by PAL facilities.
  2. Today there's article quote him that officially Indonesia has not drop Su-35 order, however he admitted there's several problem on finishing Su-35. Then he put forward another statement MinDef looking for potential F-35 deal as alternative


That last article shown typically Indonesian official statement that at first diplomatically stating they are not dumping one supplier yet, but addmiting some problem arise, then put another statement on potential looking to rival supplier with an open bargaining possition.

From what I gather the budget for 2 F-16V sq is separate from budget of 1 sq Su-35. There's already from first term talk (some already I put before) that TNI-AU look to increase their Fighter ORBAT from current 8 sq to 10. Thus the 2 sq of F-16V will be the plan expansion from 8 sq to 10.
In short if that's plan still follow, the plan F-16V is not alternative to Su-35.
(Wasn't it the plan that the 2 sets of F-16V was to replace the Hawks?)
Perhaps this's why The French talking on 3 sq of Rafale after Prabowo's visits, which perhaps shown Prabowo's looking on alternative of 2 F-16V sq and 1 Su-35 sq toward 3 sq of Rafale.
Again all this still must be considered as part of planning and looking on alternative.

That's why the need for multi-year budget and planning need to be done thoroughly and with much discipline, since this probably need to be carried on to the next President term.

Just to remind, the current orbat of 8 sq consist of 2 sq of F-16 A/B/C/D, 2 sq of Hawk 200/100, 1 sq Flankers, 1 sq TA-50, 1sq of Super Tucano, and 1 sq 'defunct' F-5 that supposedly replace by Su-35.
Actually we just have 5 fighter squadrons: SkU 1, 3, 11, 12 and 16.
- SkU 15 only has some jettrainers (from which i understand most T-50i's dont even have a cannon, am i right?)
- The EMB314 Super Tucano: thats not a jet fighter
- Sku 14: a fighter squadron with grounded obsolete fighters--> doesnt actually even exist!

I am against if TNI-AU is depended from just one supplier. On the other hand i also dislike the idea of having small quantities of many types from different suppliers (such situation we have with our air defence systems).

So at this moment TNI-AU is looking for three squadrons of new fighters, while it has two types of REAL multirole fighters: the F-16s and the Sukhoi.
Like Ananda already talk about, ordering 2 squadrons of F-16V and one of Su-35 is a logic choice.
Or 3 sets of Rafales.
I think 3 squadrons of Rafales, 2 Sukhois and 2-4
F-16s is acceptable if TNI-AU plan to have 8-10 fighter squadrons.

We just have to wait and see how this ends
The acquisition of new jetfighters is not that simple, like Ananda and others already said, ToT like assembling/component production/heavy maintenance and maintenance/operational costs are as important as the acquisition costs.
 
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