If they follow the US /NATO standard, practice rounds are blue and war rounds are white etc.
Indonesian Aero News
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
edit NG beat me to it
I don't think that's quite right. AIM-7 and AIM-120 (ASRAAM and Mica too i think) have white or grey bodies with coloured bands indicating live warheads and live rockets. Inert versions are similar but with the bands in blue. Older versions of AIM-9 usually follow the same convention but some are overall blue as also all the AIM-9X photos I can recall.
Is it possible that the all blue ones are ground handling dummies, and the banded versions tethered training rounds?
oldsig
Ahmad
Active Member
After Singapore get US government approval on F 35 B acquisition, I think we will scrap the idea to acquire 2 squadron of F 16 Block 70 and focus on KFX development and acquisition instead. Nevertheless, F16 Block 70 acquisition has not yet been approved by defense ministry office and is still regarded as Air Force wish list.
There is also news that Turkey offer Malaysia to join TFX and Hurjet program, this development IMO should further support Indonesia participation in KFX since as much bigger country, Indonesia doesnt want to be seen as falling behind Malaysia in aerospace sector.
There is also news that Turkey offer Malaysia to join TFX and Hurjet program, this development IMO should further support Indonesia participation in KFX since as much bigger country, Indonesia doesnt want to be seen as falling behind Malaysia in aerospace sector.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Indonesian Navy requests anti-submarine, surface kits for five more Panthers | Jane's 360
5 kits with 2 for ASW and 3 for AAW. This is just part of development since from beginning the 11 Panther that being build for TNI-AL are plan some will be for AAW, some for ASW.
5 kits with 2 for ASW and 3 for AAW. This is just part of development since from beginning the 11 Panther that being build for TNI-AL are plan some will be for AAW, some for ASW.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I dont think we have the time to wait until the KFX becomes operational. First flight was initially planned for 2026, but i am afraid this can become close to 2030, and maybe the KFX becomes operationable around 2035.
15 years from now......protecting Laut Natuna with just Hawks Mk109/209? Indonesia really needs those Su-35s and those two squadrons of F-16V Block 72s...
"According to a copy of the request that has been forwarded to Jane’s , the service is requesting IDR384 million (USD30,000) to upgrade two airframes with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) fittings and IDR216 million to install anti-surface equipment on three helicopters."
Even if its for each helicopter, these prices are unrealistic low. Maybe its just to install a hardpoint for a torpedo, without sonar and fire control computer for example.....
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Sorry, double post.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Yeah.. Jane's talk on initial proces for AAW and ASW installation. They asking on IDR cost, thus for me it is for customisation work done by DI. Sensors and Weapons as usual will be using separate budgets due it has to used foreign exchange credit line.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Sandhi, just friendly reminder to wait for more concrete development. There are no development on Su-35, there are still speculated development on F-16V, and definitely still no development on what will be Indonesia's continues involvement with KFX/IFX project (even ROK ambassador publicly aknowledged they are still waiting for Indonesian new cabinet response).
Further speculation on those three subjects is no use in my opinion on this stage. It will just turn in to 'foolish nationalistics' coffee stall arguments that are now full fill pages to pages on local forums
We wait for Prabowo's actions on defense projects implementation. Whether he can make faster implementation or back to slow and sometimes unfinished implementation as what happened in previous Mindef.
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Ahmad
Active Member
You seems not following KFX program development seriously, the first flight is planned to be made in 2022, and we are now in prototyping phase after CDR phase was passed in October last year, the first prototype is scheduled to be ready in early 2021.
I dont think there will be any war between Indonesia and China in Natuna sea, both countries understand the important to deescalate the dispute and avoid any military clash between the two nations. China has around 12 billion dollar trade surplus with Indonesia every year, so they also dont want it to be effected by the dispute.
I would rather see more acquisition in naval platform amid the raising tension in North Natuna Sea. With limited budget that we have, where most part of it is spent on soldiers payment and wellfare, I believe we will rather choose to focus on naval platform and buy 2 frigates, 2 OPV, and 3 additional submarines. Defense Minister deputy has already confirm frigates and OPV acquisition which actually has been approved by previous defense minister.
Air force IMO can wait until KFX/IFX program reaches its mass production phase which is planned to be in 2026 (with the assumption the program is success and Indonesia is still part of it).
I hope KFX renegotiation process will be finished soon with Indonesia will still be part of the program.
King Wally
Active Member
There's a lot of talk recently about developing new sheet 5th Gen Fighters (South Korea, Japan, Turkey, Europe, etc), I think everyone needs to realise the F35 program wasn't delayed as long as it was due to a lack of cash or skill or will, it hit hurdles and delays because developing a modern 5th gen fighter is incredibly complex and difficult. I think until you have test aircraft in the air and advanced development in motion it's nearly impossible to say what year such an aircraft will be available to enter full operational service?
In the meantime, some form of immediate contingency planning would be wise IMO.
In the meantime, some form of immediate contingency planning would be wise IMO.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Agree, there's too much contingencies that can happen when you developed complex new technology on 5th gen platform. Not just F-35, even Su-57 and J-20 still facing development hurdle even Russian and Chinese already put them in operational conditions. This means they are not fully operational yet to the specs that originated.
So, I do agree with Sandhi that even with time table of 2022-26 of prototypes flight development, if they manage to get KFX ready for operational stage and mass production by 2030, it is already an achievement.
Even if KAI got most of the 'off the shelf' technology fully integrated..does not mean they are going to be able to run it smoothly.
Still on this KFX/IFX..as this is Indonesian AF/Aviation thread..I'm not going to discuss KFX as if Indonesia is already fully backing on participation with this program, until what they are renegotiate with ROK already agreed upon by both parties. So far it is still under renegotiation stage, and will see how the result end.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Our new minister of defence is visiting several European countries these last weeks, so many fanboyish 'newsreports' and wild stories are popping up everywhere.
Before you read this article, remember this:
"Djakarta est intéressé par 48 Rafale, jusqu'à 4 Scorpène et 2 Gowind."
"...tertarik..."
Just interested, no budget, no contract ...nothing happened yet...
Et si l'Indonésie s'offrait des Rafale et des sous-marins Scorpène ?
Before you read this article, remember this:
"Djakarta est intéressé par 48 Rafale, jusqu'à 4 Scorpène et 2 Gowind."
"...tertarik..."
Just interested, no budget, no contract ...nothing happened yet...
Et si l'Indonésie s'offrait des Rafale et des sous-marins Scorpène ?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Prabowo's seems going from country to country looking and evaluating all possible and potential partnership. Officially this administration stated that's what Jokowi's ask Prabowo's doing and make assessment back to the cabinet before Q1 this year.
That's make a lot of speculations in local forums and Media or even sometimes in the respective potential suppliers countries media. Already see some Turkish media talk on Indonesia will have collaboration with Turkey on Submarine projects or French media on projects from aircraft, surface ships and submarine as you have put.
Again, as you have put..this all still some wild speculation. Still interesting that French media come out with 48 number calculating Rafale as potential replacement for plan 1 sq Su-35 and 2 sq F-16V.
Just wondering if the French can provide more economical deals to what Russian (Sukhoi) or US (LM) can provide. There's potential they can make deals that are competing enough with Sukhoi..but more attractive than LM ? Bit doubt on that..
Looking what they offering to India..I highly doubt Dassault can come out with better deal than LM.
That's make a lot of speculations in local forums and Media or even sometimes in the respective potential suppliers countries media. Already see some Turkish media talk on Indonesia will have collaboration with Turkey on Submarine projects or French media on projects from aircraft, surface ships and submarine as you have put.
Again, as you have put..this all still some wild speculation. Still interesting that French media come out with 48 number calculating Rafale as potential replacement for plan 1 sq Su-35 and 2 sq F-16V.
Just wondering if the French can provide more economical deals to what Russian (Sukhoi) or US (LM) can provide. There's potential they can make deals that are competing enough with Sukhoi..but more attractive than LM ? Bit doubt on that..
Looking what they offering to India..I highly doubt Dassault can come out with better deal than LM.
1. The Indonesian government has approved an increase in the proposed defence budget for 2020, taking the allocation to IDR131.2 trillion (USD9.6 billion). The new figure amounts to a year-on-year increase of 20% and a rise of IDR3.8 trillion over the originally proposed 2020 defence allocation of IDR127.4 trillion. The approved defence budget was confirmed in a document recently published by the Ministry of Finance, outlining state expenditure for 2020. According to the document, the defence budget amounts to nearly 8% of government spending for the year, which means the Indonesian defence planners are serious in implementing MEF; and are better resourced to execute these plans in 2020. The proposed 2 more F-16V (Block 70/72) squadrons is the costliest acquisition in the government’s defense priorities for 2020-2024. This is a good choice, as I note that:
(i) The combat ready F-16V has been selected by Bulgaria (8), Slovakia (14), Taiwan (66), and Morroco (25) in 2019 alone. It is a modern and capable fighter that is threat relevant in the next 15 to 20 years.
2. Right now, TNI-AU would struggle to generate sorties from their tri-service integrated units in Natuna, Saumlaki, Morotai, Biak, and Merauke (as part of a larger eastern rebalance of the TNI’s force structure), after the 1st day of war, against any capable tertiary opponent. Regardless of which fighter type Indonesia chooses, be it American, European or Russian, the TNI-AU needs to be a certain minimum size to be credible and these fighter squadrons need to be networked together. The addition of 2 squadrons of 32 F-16Vs, costing an estimated US$2 billion will help your country, last two weeks, in the event of war — a badly needed follow on step from the American supply of 24 refurbished F-16C/Ds. Even if Indonesia buys into the untested KFX program, to eventually replace your 34 older F-16s, it should not be at the expense of this F-16V program. IMO, the additional new F-16Vs are badly needed to improve sortie generation capabilities by 2024. Capability management is not about the platform alone and much more than buying the 'best' or the 'right' platform. Taiwan’s tertiary force structure, including their 6 E-2T/K AWACS and planned upgrades to their 150 strong F-16 fighter fleet is instructive of what is needed to survive the 1st two weeks of war for their threat matrix (aka fight China), before external help can arrive.- If they are good enough for these 4 air forces, why is it not good enough for Indonesia? Please explain what is so different in Indonesia.
- Why would Singapore’s F-35B down-select affect your country’s force structure planning for air power generation? Please explain your rationale to divert funds from the needed F-16V program.
- Under a Defence Cooperation Agreement, Singapore provides training assistance to the TNI, including professional courses like the Combined Fighter Weapons Instructor Course. To date, hundreds of TNI-AU pilots have undergone simulator training in Singapore, and 10 TNI-AU instructors have graduated from the Combined Fighter Weapons Instructor Course.
- The SAF gains tremendously by training with the TNI, as we have a conscript army, whereas, the TNI is a professional army. We also share a maritime border with Indonesia and we need your help to patrol these waters together.
- Having a stronger TNI-AU and naval presence for Indonesia (well within your country's capability with the current size of Indonesia's economy), is key to ensuring that your country is less affected by China’s 9-dash line claims in West Natuna. In mid-Dec 2019, Chinese maritime law enforcement vessels were found escorting numerous Chinese fishing boats operating within the Indonesian exclusive economic zone (EEZ) off Ranai. President Joko Widodo also unequivocally declared that no negotiation regarding matters pertaining to sovereignty would ever be held with Beijing over Natuna. Meanwhile, the Indonesian Navy beefed up its presence through eight warships to patrol and secure the Natuna waters. And TNI-AU announced plans to dispatch four F-16 fighter jets to Natuna for “routine patrol”. See CNA: Commentary: Indonesia’s high-stakes stand-off with China in the South China Sea
- In sum, China has established a forward defence line some 800 km from its mainland coast. And this development from the Chinese perspective is in direct response to the encirclement policy articulated in the early 1950s through the three island chains. Despite the ruling of the Arbitral Tribunal in 2016 on the SCS dispute, no one that thinks that any country, at this point anyway, would attempt to forcibly push the PLA out of the SCS features. As such, the South China Sea situation appears to have settled into a “new normal” that neither China nor the United States are likely to disturb.
- In this new normal, both will continue their naval and air force displays of power in the South China Sea; defend their policies, positions, and actions; criticize each others and enhance relations with regional countries, including military relations. The Americans will continue sporadic freedom of navigation operations (FONOPs) against China’s claims and China will continue to respond by sharply criticizing them and using them as an excuse to further militarize its features.
(i) acquire specialist recce pods for maritime use;
(ii) train and sustain this force by acquiring ground based equipment; spare engines and other parts and a flight simulator;
(iii) buy a tiny initial stockpile of 32 air launched anti-ship missiles to support the navy in a sea denial role (32 missiles enable the targeting of 8 enemy destroyers/frigates assuming a salvo of 4 were launched at each ship); and
(iv) buy another 150 to 250 air-to-air missiles of different types as war stock for OCA and DCA missions.
5. I thought you said in another thread all Indonesia needed was to invest in some cruise missiles and rockets? Please explain your changing position, where missiles and rockets no longer rule?
6. Or do you admit — that your prior posts in these 2 threads is incorrect.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Leonardo to provide RAT 31 DL/M radar system to Indonesian Air Force | Jane's 360
I usually not quite interested to put in this thread Radar acquisition. However this article put confirmation from Leonardo that they will collaborate with PT. LEN (SOE that works in electronics and sensors) on local production for this Radar projects.
I usually not quite interested to put in this thread Radar acquisition. However this article put confirmation from Leonardo that they will collaborate with PT. LEN (SOE that works in electronics and sensors) on local production for this Radar projects.
ChestnutTree
Active Member
Is this from the Air Force's GCI radar competition?
If so, this was a long time coming. I used to work in one of the companies that was competing in the project but we were bidding with the Indra Lanza 3D's. IIRC my old boss stated we were one of the preferred bidders but I guess they went ahead with Leonardo after one of the other bidders complained and the bid process had to be restarted.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
TNI-AU bought in the past some Thompson-CSF (now Thales) Master T radars.
Wasn't it easier/logistically more efficiently to order more of these? Was it because the RAT-31 DL/M has a slightly greater range (470 km in stead of the 390-440 km of the Master-T) or is it because the RAT-31 DL/M is cheaper?
ChestnutTree
Active Member
Is there any mention of a ToT contract with LEN? Because that could be the silver bullet.