Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Ananda, do you have more info about this new replenishment ship, the KRI Tarakan 905?
The only info i can find is here kapal tanker | IndonesiaJawara.com

 

[swerve]

The Scanter 4100 radar is probably adequate for the Fatahillah class. AFAIK they have no air defence role. The Royal Navy has it on its River class, Denmark on the Thetis class (recently replaced older radars), Brazil to the Amazonas class. Smart-S Mk2 is a bigger, more capable - & more expensive - radar, & probably more than the Fatahillahs could use or need.

 

[DavidDCM]

Without the WM-28 fire control radar, can the ship still fire the Exocet missiles? The Scanter 4100 is purely a surveillance radar, it provides no radar guidance for the weapons as far as I understand it. So did they remove the Exocet ability? Or does the Exocet not need any fire control radar?

Another thing that seems missing is the ESM suite (mounted below the WM-28 before the upgrade). Also appears to have been removed with no replacement.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Without the WM-28 fire control radar, can the ship still fire the Exocet missiles? The Scanter 4100 is purely a surveillance radar, it provides no radar guidance for the weapons as far as I understand it. So did they remove the Exocet ability? Or does the Exocet not need any fire control radar?

Another thing that seems missing is the ESM suite (mounted below the WM-28 before the upgrade). Also appears to have been removed with no replacement.

I have no idea, there is no much information about the modernisation of the Fatahillah Class on the internet. Hopefully the modernisation has not become a downgrade of this class of frigates.

But there is also good news! The first of three ordered Type 209 subs is near completion. "403" is already painted on the boat, and according to some sources, the name will become KRI Nagabanda.

From which i understand, the plan is to give these names to the boats:
403 KRI Nagabanda
404 KRI Trisula
405 KRI Nagarangsang

In the nineties there were plans to buy old secondhand Type 206 subs from Germany, five if im not wrong. I still remember that some of the names here above were to be given to them. But because of the Krismon of 1998, this plan was cancelled.

 

[Ananda]

Launching of Nagabanda (403)..from DSME shipyard..courtesy frm Madokafc in local forum..

As mentioned before this is the first Sub from batch of 3 type 209 based sub. 403, and 404 build in DSME facility, while 405 still plan to be build in PT. PAL facility in Surabaya as part of tech transfer cooperation with DSME.

The facility in PT. PAL can build up to 2000 ton submarine..which is bigger than 1400 ton submarine of this DSME sub. The Sub it self according to DSME is upgrade version from ROK 209 (Chanbogo class)..and Indonesian 209 (Chakra class)..which both basically Type 209/1200.

Submarine facility in PT. PAL, will be build based to DSME sub facility..the up to 2000 ton capability, seems indicated further enlargement of the design is possible..just like Makasar LPD which then being enlarge by PT. PAL

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some good news.

Airbus Helicopters advances Panther MBe deliveries

08 April, 2016 BY: Dominic Perry London

Airbus Helicopters will accelerate deliveries of its AS565 MBe Panther anti-submarine warfare rotorcraft following requests from the Indonesian and Mexican navies – its sole customers for the new variant.

Initial examples were due to be handed over to the services in mid-2017, but this has now advanced to late-2016, says the manufacturer.

More at https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...pters-advances-panther-mbe-deliveries-424020/

So hopefully in the end of the year we will get our first decent ASW-helicopters..

 

[Ananda]

Another Parchim misshap...

Indonesian Navy investigating the 'fatal' accident with one of its Ex East German Parchim corvette.

Indonesia launches investigation into Kapitan Pattimura-class corvette accident | IHS Jane's 360

Considering the condition of that Parchim Corvette (picture frm detik.com)..I'm not quite optimist they can salvage the corvette. Like the Jane's article said, the corvette got struck by ship wreckage when entering Belawan Harbour in Medan North Sumatra.

Indonesia bought the wholle 16 vessels frm East German Parchim and renamed the class as Kapiten Patimura. 1 of 16, already writen off due to substantiall fire damage. Don't know if this vessels (KRI Pati Unus) still can be salvageable or not.

Those 16 vessels has been repowered (with western diesel engine) and some of them already got electronics upgrade on sensors (source local or frm China)..It's economically cheap to operate (after repowering and modification)..and despite the higher profile of the Sigma's, PKR 10514, Ex Nahkoda Ragam/bung tomo, and Fatahilla light frigates..those 16 ex East German corvette make the bulk of TNI AL patrolling capabilities.

That 16 strong class also so far has no direct replacement program, where other class has replacement in hand (ex Van Speijk Frigates with PKR10514 Frigate, Ex Claud Jones frigates with Sigma Corvette, ex Tribal Frigates with ex Nahkoda Ragam corvette).

Some in local media/forum speculatte that PT Pal latest missile FPB (KCR 60)..is the replacement..but I believe those KCR 60 are to augment or replace the previous missile FPB..
PAL being reported to have prepared 70-80m corvette design as Parchim replacement..but so far no done deal on that..

Thus the old ex East German corvettes which being design only for relatively convined Baltic Sea will soldier on patroling more open Indonesian waters..

 

[STURM]

The ex-Parchims received Renk gears some years ago. It would be safe to assume that over the years the TNI-AL has also fitted the class with new radios, navigation radar, GPS, etc. I'm curious as to whether the original radar and sonar are still operational. Photos were previously released showing the RBU-6000 being fired.

 

[Ananda]

Most still used their original ex East German sensors..the RBU still operational, during last year and 2014 Armed Force day..it's being fired for demo's. TNI AL from what I heard got a lot of spares for electronics and ammo since they basically also got East German spares and ammo inventory for Parchim.

Some of them got upgrade on locally made sensors (maritime navigation radars)..but don't know how many already installed. One of them KRI Thaha Syaifuddin (376) become test bed for Chinese made type 730 CIWS with associated sensors. Local media/forum told it's integration run smoothly..but being said that type 730 will not be retrofitted on other Parchim corvetes. It's however destined to PAL newest missiles FPB KCR 60.

 

[Ananda]

Been a whille haven't updating this thread. The Nature of defence procurement of this Administration compared to previous one is such, that any plan or even seemingly confirmation can be turn back or changes so many time (look at F-5E replacement procurement saga that until now still has no clear guide who will be the replacement).

For that I only posted something that are clear already in place.

Attached is images of KRI Tarakan (beennaround for couple of days in lokal media/forum)the first domestically build Light Fleet Liquid Replenishment vessels. Build by one of State owned Ship Yard "Dok Kodja Bahari/DKB". This ship actually already innagurated on 2014, but then again has to be put back to the builder yard since some adjustment and equipments installation has to be finalise.

Unlike PAL (The other State Owned Shipyard that regularly got Naval contract), the DKB track record performance is much worse than PAL. Does not mean that PAL already have excellence track record, but the quality and timeliness on the job schedulle is much improved, which is why PAL begin to get overseas contract.

However DKB is on the other spectrum..missmanagement of contract, supplier handling made their projects got much late behind schedulle or even stop ongoing project due to the yard management problem.

KRI Tarakan also 2 years behind schedulle, however it is fare better than 2 other DKB LST projects. Meanwhille the LST sister ship build by Private owned yard already operational, eventhough it should be scheddulled operational after the 2 DKB build LST. Attached is also images that shown one of the LST production is completely stop.

Images originated frm Arc.web.id and some local media/forum.

 

[Alvin-Jr]

Anti Jokowi

There are so many negative sentiments to the current president regarding military procurements in this thread. However, I find the negative sentiments to be unjust. Jokowi has been in office for only 2 years and people here are comparing with SBY's 10 years in office.

My question is, when SBY's administration was only 2 years what did he buy? SIGMA corvette was delivered but not negotiated under him. ANOA got a boost not from SBY but from JK.

Jokowi may not be buying miitary stuffs during this 2 year in power, but he is already reinforcing KKP / Fishery Ministry with larger patrol boats to be stationed in the Natunas and face the China CG. I know KKP is civilian and has no place in this thread, but Jokowi has proven to be tougher than SBY when it comes to the issue of sovereignity.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti anybody. SBY did a good job in modernizing TNI during his 10 year term. But that's 10 YEARS, not 2 years. So, apple-to-apple if you please?

 

[ngatimozart]

There are so many negative sentiments to the current president regarding military procurements in this thread. However, I find the negative sentiments to be unjust. Jokowi has been in office for only 2 years and people here are comparing with SBY's 10 years in office.

My question is, when SBY's administration was only 2 years what did he buy? SIGMA corvette was delivered but not negotiated under him. ANOA got a boost not from SBY but from JK.

Jokowi may not be buying miitary stuffs during this 2 year in power, but he is already reinforcing KKP / Fishery Ministry with larger patrol boats to be stationed in the Natunas and face the China CG. I know KKP is civilian and has no place in this thread, but Jokowi has proven to be tougher than SBY when it comes to the issue of sovereignity.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti anybody. SBY did a good job in modernizing TNI during his 10 year term. But that's 10 YEARS, not 2 years. So, apple-to-apple if you please?

You have posted exactly the same post in the Indonesia Aero News thread which I've deleted. Both of these posts are political and therefore against the rules. Secondly posting exactly the same post in two or more threads is also bad. This is a formal warning and further action action may be taken, if deemed necessary, after a discussion by the Moderators.

 

[Ananda]

There are so many negative sentiments to the current president regarding military procurements in this thread. However, I find the negative sentiments to be unjust. Jokowi has been in office for only 2 years and people here are comparing with SBY's 10 years in office.

My question is, when SBY's administration was only 2 years what did he buy? SIGMA corvette was delivered but not negotiated under him. ANOA got a boost not from SBY but from JK.

Jokowi may not be buying miitary stuffs during this 2 year in power, but he is already reinforcing KKP / Fishery Ministry with larger patrol boats to be stationed in the Natunas and face the China CG. I know KKP is civilian and has no place in this thread, but Jokowi has proven to be tougher than SBY when it comes to the issue of sovereignity.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti anybody. SBY did a good job in modernizing TNI during his 10 year term. But that's 10 YEARS, not 2 years. So, apple-to-apple if you please?

Double Posting.

 

[Ananda]

There are so many negative sentiments to the current president regarding military procurements in this thread. However, I find the negative sentiments to be unjust. Jokowi has been in office for only 2 years and people here are comparing with SBY's 10 years in office.

My question is, when SBY's administration was only 2 years what did he buy? SIGMA corvette was delivered but not negotiated under him. ANOA got a boost not from SBY but from JK.

Jokowi may not be buying miitary stuffs during this 2 year in power, but he is already reinforcing KKP / Fishery Ministry with larger patrol boats to be stationed in the Natunas and face the China CG. I know KKP is civilian and has no place in this thread, but Jokowi has proven to be tougher than SBY when it comes to the issue of sovereignity.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti anybody. SBY did a good job in modernizing TNI during his 10 year term. But that's 10 YEARS, not 2 years. So, apple-to-apple if you please?

Another Jokowi fans but-hurt..

This is International thread..thus in here we are only posting that already procured or will be procured based on valid contractual based..This is a fact that this administrations track record only talked much but lack of real implementation..

So show the real implementation that already been done by present Admin that are not originating frm SBY's era contract..
Don't talk politics or just some woshy-wishy rumours..If you want talk politics or act like Jokowi fans but-hurt..than talk in local forum..there are several of that that can entertaint wishy-woshy ranting and talk..like in detik forum or kaskus forum..or if you want more International flavour than can go to some forums that willing to acept fan boys bravado and wishy-wishy romours as factual..

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Defence Budget Cut..

Frm Kompas online..

Anggaran Dipangkas, Kemenhan Tunda Sejumlah Pembaruan Alutsista - Kompas.com

Sorry in Indonesian. Point is, the government/mindef will postponed some defense procurement project due to budget cuts..Despite only some time before when the mindef officials stated that all procurement/program will continue as in budgets.

The addition of Sri Mulyani as Finance Ministry seems begin to bring sense of reality to this Administrations..the previous budget full of wish list that not in line with Economic reality.

This is perhaps one of the reason why any defense procuremrnt/project in the present administration take longger time to be implemented. In my view they used to work solely based on 'wish list' and not on solid strategic procurement plan and assesment.

Ironically this made the present administration actually more 'late' in implementing what they already stated in public before. Thus in turn reduced much credibility of statements frm them. In short the present officials in this administration used to talk on what they wish..and not what they actually can delivered.

For that I implore to other Indonesian members especially to new commers to restrain posting anything unless it's already been done or in 'real' progress in implementing.

The Mindef says now the priority is to strengthen border facilities..so using that as example..please if you want to post on the issue just not only what the official statement is... but real project implementation..All of this shown that much of what present official of this administration stated in public need to be much verified..again due to the track record of lacking credibility on what they say in local media..

Some of the official especially the new one like Sri Mulyani have good credibility..due to her proven record in previous admnistration and during her tenure in World Bank..
However many still not showing good credible track record..

This is serious International forum..and not a place for some fan boys..talking much bravado like some other forum on defence issue

 

[Ananda]

Got this picture of Sea Trial for 1st SIGMA based PKR 10514 Light Frigate/Corvette KRI RE Marthadinata frm lokal forum Kaskus frm id "babycebong". Took this picture since it is the clearest picture so far that shown the sea trial of the vessel.
The PKR 105 program so far only for 2 ships, altough there is talk for 6 similar vessel to replace venerable A Yani/Van Speijk Leander based frigates.

Talk in local forum and media saying that the overall PKR license to PAL frm Damen is 20 vessel, which in turn show continuation of Light Frigates program under Soeharto era which used going to be based on Fincantieri 2400 ton Light Frigate design.

But I jump far too ahead, since the additional 4 PKR contract to make up to 6 PKR 105 is still not clear on when or even whether the contract will be implemented soon. Logically with much investment that Pindad already involved with the program, at least 6 PKR 105 should be implemented. It's logicall to maintain PAL continues proficiency skill on the project. But again under this present administrations not everything that should be logically cleared will be in the end implemented

Looking at the Pictures KRI RE Marthadinata already has its main gun installed, and still left VLS space behind and place for Rheinmettal Oerlikon Millenium CIWS gun in B possition. Whether both will be installed soon, remain to be seen.

Well if any one else got more additional 'solid' info in the continuation of PKR 105 Project..feel free to add. I my self has not seen any solid based information yet on project continuation despites talks on next PKR 10514 will be stop at 6 and next Frigates will be enlarge and make it basically SIGMA 12215..or event talk on using Danes Iver Huitfeld as next Frigates project.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thank you for sharing the good news, Ananda!
I really hope the order will be extended with four additional SIGMA 10514 ships...
Specially because the Malaysian Navy directly ordered six Gowind Class ships / Second Generation Patrol Vessels (SGPV) from the beginning, which will be completely constructed in Malaysia.
But hey, with this current administration, its better not to expect anything,

 

[Ananda]

Yes..now suddenly new player (Denmark) come to play and offering to cooperate in Naval building..then news in local media shown Ministry of Defence checking out Iver Huitfeld in Denmark.

Don't get me wrong Iver class is a proper size Frigates and certaintly more capable design then Sigma 10514 that being based for PKR. However with the continuation of further 4 PKR still not clear, and the budget now being continue rationalise (polite way on saying budget cut)..one must be wondering where the strategic plan on overall procurement program.

PAL need to have continuation works on frigates to ensured their building capacity and capabilities is not wasted. Iver is more capable Frigates then PKR..no arguement on that..but that mean also considerable more expensive then PKR..despites the Danes saying it's modular design that's more economical then other modular frigates in Similar size..
Can we have enough money to ensured continuation of Frigates building work in PAL..if Mindef is 'undecided' on what is follow on program after the 2 PKR finish ?

Previous Admin is not 'immune' on side tracking procurement frm original plann..Leopard 2 is one example even the Belgium originated M113 and potential M109 SPH is the procurement that originated on SBY era's negotiation.
However current Mindef planning that really comes to question..Granted the budget availability is not as big its planed before..but still larger than average annual defense budget in previous admin. Thus they should at least shown to public what their prioritising are..

This Administration continue saying that Naval and Air Defence will be priority..but question on continuation of PKR or any other Frigates project (again don't ever said the 2 PKR project is this Administration achievement..it's previous one project)..or the indicisiveness on F5 replacement program..is put big question mark on their willingness to follow their grand strategy of maritime focus..

I do not want to go to politics..but their track record so far is full on indicision..their supporter saying SBY is late on decision making..if that so..are Jokowi admin simply have 'no' decision making ?
Hope not..we are facing big challanges on our maritime and air teritory control around us..and we are facing real condition on lossing momentum if no decision coming by this year end..

Add:

Some media or local forum that are much more friendly to present administration..argue that many incoming procurement deal being postponed also related to the practise of 'middle man' that Jokowi try to eradicated.

Well it's not news..and middle man do play in defense procurement..never say that our mindef is already 'corrupt free'..on contrary on that..
However this already being try to minimised since previous administration..which try to get more G to G deal in defense procurement. One procurement that still full of 'middle man' is procurement to Rosoboron, China, or other former eastern block nation..

That's one of reason why in their late years..previous admin procured more contracts with US and West on G to G basis..
If the Present Admin can not get rid middle man on Procurement..and try to be more G to G deal..why not then go to supplier that want to do G to G and reduced middle man involvement..

Why still try to procured frm Russia or China which 'no secret' full of middle man agent lurking around in Mindef..?

Well hope the present admin can fast sort out their act on prioritising moved on procurement in defense contracts..

 

[r0m8470]

Failed C-705 launch - Indo Navy major annual exercise

I just read that on major naval exercise, Indonesian navy attempted to launch a C705 SSM from an FAC, but the missile was 'delayed' in launch.

I still can't find any other credible sources aside from various blogs with dubious reputation. I wonder what happened? This is not the first time the Navy failed launching their SSM in a major exercise. The first Yakhont launch failed, so did the first MM40 launch from Bung Tomo class, if I recall.

I do not know how often the armed forces attempted live fire exercise on their major weapon systems. This can't be good and I hope this does not present systemic problems in logistics and maintenance.

As far as I recall, I do not remember if TNI ever test-fire any Rapiers, Ataka (from the Hinds), Sea Wolf (from Bung Tomo class - if they are even functional), Whitehead ASW torpedo, or Mistral (from Tetral system).

I wonder if there are further implications towards the plan to license-built C705. If I were the Mindef staff-in-charge of the program, I sure would like a root cause and free replacement of the expended missile.

Another segway;
I wonder what the ownership model is with these SSMs. I took a ship tour of an Arleigh Burke DDG last year, and spoke with one of the officer. He pointed out an interesting fact that the missiles in the VLS are consigned inventory to the USN and from financial perspective, they are still asset of Raytheon.

 

[tonnyc]

What has been confirmed by multiple domestic sources:
The test is a failure. The missile missed.
Only one ship fired the missile. Report of a second missile is incorrect. (Source: a reporter I know who was actually there.)
Supposedly the C-802 was to be tested at the same event, but this was canceled after the C-705 mishap.

Something that is unconfirmed:
The delay may be due to a more mundane reason (but still bad). That the guys on the bridge didn't realize the order has been given. The president and the brass were on deck on a different ship.

An investigation will be conducted. And no, it's not looking good for the C-705.