Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Indonesian president watches failed firings of Chinese-made C-705 missiles at naval exercise | IHS Jane's 360

Frm Jane's.

Thus 2 C-705 missiles failed. One launch unexpectedly after 5 minutes launch command initialised frm on board firing command modules. The other missiles succesfully launch but failed mid way to target.

The Chinese manufactures technical staff frm what I gather do suppervised the launch, thus in my opinion this can not be attribute to crew misshandling as the Jane's article put.

The Fast Missile Crafts is domestically build class (called KCR 40)..that build with Chinese missiles, sensors and CIWS as main gun. It's said the bigger FMC (KCR 60) still waiting on the C-705 test result to determine whether they will be also equiped with C-705.

Is not all chinese missilles failed the test. The Larger ASM C-802 being informed doing well on the previous test with ex Van-Speijk/Yani Frigates class as replacement for Harpoon. C-802 frm my understanding is also more mature design then C-705.
The Chinese offered C-802 for ASM in Frigates/Corvettes and C-705 for FMC.

@tonnyc, isn't C-705 and its supporting sensors is in competition with Swedish RBS15 and supporting sensors as standard in future TNI-AL FMC ?
This could be good news for SAAB..

 

[r0m8470]

@tonnyc, isn't C-705 and its supporting sensors is in competition with Swedish RBS15 and supporting sensors as standard in future TNI-AL FMC ?
This could be good news for SAAB..

This in itself is amazing in terms of systems diversity within the Navy. There are MM38 (if they are still functional) on Fatahillah, Dewantara and PSSM, C-802 (on Van Speijk and maybe 2 FPB-57?), Yakhont (trial install only on 1 Van Speijk hull?), MM40 (on Sigma and MRLF class), C-705 (small missile boats), and potentially (cannot be 100% sure with Indo Navy) on the new trimaran.

Of all those, C-802 was tested successfully. MM40 were tested, but there is at least 1 failure. Yakhont were tested and there is at least 1 failure. Now C-705 failed during exercise. It is remarkable that there seems to be as much live fire failures as successes (I counted three, C705, MM40 and Yakhont).

From procurement perspective, the Navy brass has to realize that they have a strong leverage in scale. Talk about the number of hulls that can accept missiles, at least a dozen small missile boats, half a dozen Van Speijk, the Sigmas and possibly the FPB57s. Why spread the purchase across multiple systems? Why can't they setup a set of operational requirements with key parameters, then run a tender. The winner has to integrate their product on all platforms with CMS integration as part of the contract award.

 

[Ananda]

In concept, I think they are planning to do that. C-705, or RBS-15 deal connected to a deal that going to be used as standardise mid-range ASM for FMC's. The local media talked about potential hundreds of missiles on the deal build domestically.
Thus they are lookin to simplified their logistics.

MM-40 being bought to replace MM-38 for corvetes, and C-802 is tested as Harpoon replacement. Not sure though where is Yakhont going to fit, asside TNI-AL experiment on long range Naval ASM. I Think TNI-AL won't test the over the horizon concept like Yakhont further, until they got their Daulphin based ASW Helicopters that can be used as mid-range correction craft.

Well hopefully they still pursue standardise ASM project, and will see who will come out to take that. So far seems only the Chinese and Swedish that seriously in talk for helping Indonesian manufactures build missiles domestically.

At least SAAB already in serious talk with Pindad on projects to revatilise existing TNI-AD RBS-70 Shorad, and potentially build RBS-70 NG. Whether this will go to other missiles like RBS-15..will see...
http://www.janes.com/article/63878/indonesia-s-pt-pindad-and-saab-collaborate-on-air-defence

 

[Ananda]

Second Indonesian 209 (with korean flavour) being launched by DSME today. The first one already conducting sea trial with Indonesian crew. The 3rd ones will be build and finished in PAL shipyard in Surabya with sections supplied by DSME.

The picture and news frm detik on line
http://m.detik.com/news/berita/d-3327807/kapal-selam-diesel-pesanan-tni-al-diluncurkan-dari-korsel

This one frm South Korean Yonhap
http://m.yna.co.kr/mob2/en/contents_en.jsp?cid=AEN20161024003500320&site=0500000000&mobile

 

[Ananda]

Without the WM-28 fire control radar, can the ship still fire the Exocet missiles? The Scanter 4100 is purely a surveillance radar, it provides no radar guidance for the weapons as far as I understand it. So did they remove the Exocet ability? Or does the Exocet not need any fire control radar?

Another thing that seems missing is the ESM suite (mounted below the WM-28 before the upgrade). Also appears to have been removed with no replacement.

Navantia modernizará una corbeta de la Marina Indonesia

David, I know it's been quite long time, but few days ago just come to this news frm Navantia. Seems the Fatahilla class will also be equiped with INDRA build Rigel ESM, DORNA fire control, and CADIZ combat mgt system. There are few news on what Fatahilla class corvette MLU, thus so far this additional info that come by.

Also I don't ussually updating as fast as before on Indonesian Armed Forces threads in this forum.

 

[r0m8470]

Navantia modernizará una corbeta de la Marina Indonesia.

David, I know it's been quite long time, but few days ago just come to this news frm Navantia. Seems the Fatahilla class will also be equiped with INDRA build Rigel ESM, DORNA fire control, and CADIZ combat mgt system. There are few news on what Fatahilla class corvette MLU, thus so far this additional info that come by.

Also I don't ussually updating as fast as before on Indonesian Armed Forces threads in this forum.

There is Indonesian Armed Forces threads? Can anyone send the link please?

Ananda, is the Navantia program another attempt to try-and-buy? There are 3 hulls of Fatahillah class, but yet only one will undergo the MLU program with Navantia. Looking at the Navy track record, I won't be surprised if the other 2 will undergo MLU with another firm.

It is also quite peculiar with Indonesian navy. Seems like they are quite content with limited area sea control. Their newer combatants have relatively 'less intense' weapons suite aka MM40 as opposed to longer range Yakhont, Tetral as opposed to VL MICA, or VL MICA as opposed to Aster15 (or ESSM). They seem content to have Bung Tomo class sailing with (my suspicion) inoperable VL Sea Wolf, hence no meaningful AAW capabilities. With the emphasis of current administration of fisheries protection, that may be enough I guess, but such role - one can argue - can be performed with less costly vessels, say large patrol boats. Maybe the Navy wants to familiarize themselves first with more modern SEWACO and weapon systems, before graduating to more advanced ones?

One thing I am particularly interested on, is how will the Navy utilize the new subs. The navy does have a long history of operating submarines, definitely the longest experience in SE Asia, with up to 12 hulls but that was way back in the 60s. I assume that they have established a particular operational doctrine at the very least.

One last question, anyone heard what's happening with the new Trimaran? Is the program still alive?

 

[tonnyc]

Not Ananda and I'll let him handle the tougher question, but I can tell you a bit about the trimaran..

The trimaran has been heavily scaled down. Only the one hull that has been paid for will be completed but will not be fully outfitted. That one will then be used as a trial platform to see whether the it works as advertised and whether the concept fits into the overall Indonesian Navy doctrine.

People have aired doubts on whether the trimaran will perform well in choppy seas, how durable the composite hull compared to aluminium or steel hulls, and whether it's not better to build more conventional monohulled aluminium patrol boat. The admiral that pushed for the trimaran concept has retired years ago, and the current guys on the top are skeptical of it. The try-out of the single trimaran is the compromise.

 

[Ananda]

Tonnyc being modest..based on what he wrote on several forums that I know off..he knows more on Indonesian Armed Forces latest development than me. I only following some leads lately on Indonesian Armed Forces in various media and several forums.

There are 3 Indonesian Armed Forces thread in this forum, at least that relatively updated. One in Naval, one in Air Force, and one in Army sections forum. They are suposedly still in 1st page..so you can followed them.

I can only say that based on several media released, Indonesian Navy still focus more to Archipelago Deffense..thus that's why this thread still talking on Indonesia Green Water Navy..Indonesian Navy thus not a blue water one...and in my oppinion will not build proper moved to there at least for a decade (if ever there are political will to do that)..

Area defense SAM is not in the focus so far..are they want area deffence SAM ? Off course they are..in early 90's there are some talked to acquired both Dutch Tromp Class AAW Destroyers (equiped with Standard MR) when the Dutch decomissioned them in early 2000. However then with both East Timor issue and Asian Financial crisis the planned fell through (as also the ongoing plan to acquired 5 ex German U206).

The present Sigma PKR in my opinion still follow through on the 90's plan of building up to 20 2400dwt light frigates, which at that time Fincantieri is deemed as favorite front runner for PAL. The info so far also Damen give license for up to 20 Sigma 10514 design for PAL..whether this will come true...well we are talking on Indonesia..anything can change..Personally if they can come to 6 or 10 PKR..well it's already good enough..

Why I say that..because the plan for next batch of 4 10514 Sigma PKR is also not being followed yet. Whether this is due to budget issue or change on priority..well in Indonesia it can be both. PAL need to get those follow on order soon, to maintain the yard capability and proviciency on Frigates manufacturing..

Now there are talked on getting 140-150m so called 'full size frigates'..which many in local media and forum talking being equiped with Standard 2 or Aster 15/30 area defense SAM. If that is the plan..then we are talking on Frigates that cost at least 3 times then SIGMA PKR 10514.
If initial budget only plan for 20 Sigma PKR 10514, and if they want 2-4 of that 'full size' Frigates, then the number of Sigma PKR will be significatly reduced.

The media shown TNI-AL officials come visit Danes Iver Frigates, and Dutch Damen build De Zeven Provincien Frigates. Let's say if the deal come through and they build up to 4 those full size frigates (whether it's DZP based or Iver Huitfeldt based design)..then with initial budget plan they can only produced 6 or max up to 8 Sigma PKR light frigates.

For that 'if' the TNI-AL can have 4 full size Frigates (potentially with area AAW SAM)..6 PKR Light Frigates as replacement for current A Yani/Van Speijk Frigates..supported by 4 Sigma Corvettes, 3 Bung Tomo Corvettes, 3 Fatahillah Corvettes..and whatever they can come out to replace 16 ex East German Parchim Corvettes..plus bunch of small missiles boats (KCR 40, KCR 60)....
Even if TNI-AL can achieved that..it is not a blue water navy yet..and still green water (perhaps slightly blueish) archipelago deffense navy.

Off course this is just my speculation..
As Submarine..well look at Submarine they procured or plan to procured..all are considered still Coastal/Archipelago deffense subs..
That's the doctrine if I can presumme...so they are not planning to build blue water navy..thus the vessels will be mostly equiped with missiles that are suitable for Coastal and Archipelago deffense...you don't need open blue water ultra long range missiles for that.

Besides Ultra Long Range missiles need more coordinated sattelites, UAV and helicopter as mid range targetting as they all beyond horrizon targetting..that's what TNI-AL still lacked..
When they already fully equiped for over the horizon network centric targeting and survaillance infrastucture..then you can talk about ultra long range missiles like Yakhont..without that those missiles will be useless...

Again this is just my amateur speculation....

 

[Blackshoe]

Besides Ultra Long Range missiles need more coordinated sattelites, UAV and helicopter as mid range targetting as they all beyond horrizon targetting..that's what TNI-AL still lacked..
When they already fully equiped for over the horizon network centric targeting and survaillance infrastucture..then you can talk about ultra long range missiles like Yakhont..without that those missiles will be useless...

Again this is just my amateur speculation....

I would also note that in the areas where I imagine the Indonesian Navy expects to fight...long-range missiles would be wasted due to land/background shipping issues.

Better a shorter-range missile you know you can use than a longer-one you don't have the infrastructure and support for and may not be able to use in your war anyway.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks Blackshoe for your addition..
Frm what I heard or read..the result for test firing on Yakhont long range SSM was not provided good result, which I believe contributed mostly to TNI-AL lack of mid-range to long-range targeting infrastructure.

So seems that's why they only equiped one Van Speijk Frigates with Yakhont VLS.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Tonnyc being modest..based on what he wrote on several forums that I know off..he knows more on Indonesian Armed Forces latest development than me. I only following some leads lately on Indonesian Armed Forces in various media and several forums.

There are 3 Indonesian Armed Forces thread in this forum, at least that relatively updated. One in Naval, one in Air Force, and one in Army sections forum. They are suposedly still in 1st page..so you can followed them.

I can only say that based on several media released, Indonesian Navy still focus more to Archipelago Deffense..thus that's why this thread still talking on Indonesia Green Water Navy..Indonesian Navy thus not a blue water one...and in my oppinion will not build proper moved to there at least for a decade (if ever there are political will to do that)..

Area defense SAM is not in the focus so far..are they want area deffence SAM ? Off course they are..in early 90's there are some talked to acquired both Dutch Tromp Class AAW Destroyers (equiped with Standard MR) when the Dutch decomissioned them in early 2000. However then with both East Timor issue and Asian Financial crisis the planned fell through (as also the ongoing plan to acquired 5 ex German U206).

The present Sigma PKR in my opinion still follow through on the 90's plan of building up to 20 2400dwt light frigates, which at that time Fincantieri is deemed as favorite front runner for PAL. The info so far also Damen give license for up to 20 Sigma 10514 design for PAL..whether this will come true...well we are talking on Indonesia..anything can change..Personally if they can come to 6 or 10 PKR..well it's already good enough..

Why I say that..because the plan for next batch of 4 10514 Sigma PKR is also not being followed yet. Whether this is due to budget issue or change on priority..well in Indonesia it can be both. PAL need to get those follow on order soon, to maintain the yard capability and proviciency on Frigates manufacturing..

Now there are talked on getting 140-150m so called 'full size frigates'..which many in local media and forum talking being equiped with Standard 2 or Aster 15/30 area defense SAM. If that is the plan..then we are talking on Frigates that cost at least 3 times then SIGMA PKR 10514.
If initial budget only plan for 20 Sigma PKR 10514, and if they want 2-4 of that 'full size' Frigates, then the number of Sigma PKR will be significatly reduced.

The media shown TNI-AL officials come visit Danes Iver Frigates, and Dutch Damen build De Zeven Provincien Frigates. Let's say if the deal come through and they build up to 4 those full size frigates (whether it's DZP based or Iver Huitfeldt based design)..then with initial budget plan they can only produced 6 or max up to 8 Sigma PKR light frigates.

For that 'if' the TNI-AL can have 4 full size Frigates (potentially with area AAW SAM)..6 PKR Light Frigates as replacement for current A Yani/Van Speijk Frigates..supported by 4 Sigma Corvettes, 3 Bung Tomo Corvettes, 3 Fatahillah Corvettes..and whatever they can come out to replace 16 ex East German Parchim Corvettes..plus bunch of small missiles boats (KCR 40, KCR 60)....
Even if TNI-AL can achieved that..it is not a blue water navy yet..and still green water (perhaps slightly blueish) archipelago deffense navy.

Off course this is just my speculation..
As Submarine..well look at Submarine they procured or plan to procured..all are considered still Coastal/Archipelago deffense subs..
That's the doctrine if I can presumme...so they are not planning to build blue water navy..thus the vessels will be mostly equiped with missiles that are suitable for Coastal and Archipelago deffense...you don't need open blue water ultra long range missiles for that.

Besides Ultra Long Range missiles need more coordinated sattelites, UAV and helicopter as mid range targetting as they all beyond horrizon targetting..that's what TNI-AL still lacked..
When they already fully equiped for over the horizon network centric targeting and survaillance infrastucture..then you can talk about ultra long range missiles like Yakhont..without that those missiles will be useless...

Again this is just my amateur speculation....

On internet there are some fanboys fantasizing about high-end frigates with the size and weaponry of a destroyer. Looking at the current administration, from which i think they have the lack of willingness to continue with modernizing our armed forces, there will be no additional SIGMA 10514 frigates. So it will be remarkable if the Indonesian government suddenly orders 4-6 Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate/Zeven Provincien/FREMM/Horizon/Type 45 level ships. These are the best and most expansive ships these Western NATO-countries have, even if we have the budget for it, which we absolutely dont have, i have my doubts that those countries are willing to sell them to Indonesia.

Indeed, without Over The Horizon Targeting helicopters, long range anti-ship missiles like the Yakhont are useless. MM40s are good enough at this moment. But if you look at the AAW capability of the Indonesian Navy, its just pathetic. Even our modern SIGMA 9113 corvettes are only armed with some cheap low end MANPADS, and the Seawolf VLS tubes of our Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomo Class ships are just empty.
Against anti-ship missiles our ships are just chanceless.

As far as I know we only have two seagoing tankers/replenishment ships, the KRI Arun 903 and the new KRI Tarakan 905. Together with the 10 frigates bought in the eighties, the 23 corvettes, four LPDs and two Type 209/1300 subs, TNI-AL is only a green-water navy at the most.

 

[Ananda]

These are the best and most expansive ships these Western NATO-countries have, even if we have the budget for it, which we absolutely dont have, i have my doubts that those countries are willing to sell them to Indonesia.

Well..Damen and the Danes do already in talk and serious to provide their Zeven Provincien or Iver Huidfelt as based for the 'so called' Frigates project. They don't mind to sell the design..afterall they need the jobs and potential new market for that kind of Frigates projects is focus in Asia-Australia region.

They will sell it..as long as Indonesia can come out the budget on that..and that's the big question for this administration..despite all the talks..
On previous posts..I already put my doubt on whether they will even finish all 10514 SIGMA..which being talked on 20 vessels altogether..heck even 6 is already very good considering this administration track record so far..so will see.

This full size frigates will cost at least 3 Sigma 10514, thus lets give a benefit of doubt on that 18-20 Sigma 10514 plan as multi years budget..
With that they can build 4 of this full size Frigates..and 6 Sigma 10514 at most..
Then again this is with so many 'if'..

As AAW..well they just sign VL MICA for the 2 Sigma 10514..and some now speculated that those 3 Bung Tomo Light Frigates also will used VL MICA to replace previous VL Sea Wolf installation.

Missile comes into range [INDODEF16-D2] | IHS Jane's 360

Well at least that one plan for AAW missiles procurement that come to fruition.

However for talking on Mk-41 VLS Standard SM2 that will be used as main AAW weapon for that so called "full size frigates"..like many in Indonesian forum wild speculates..well it's much more complex and expensive to even maintain than VL MICA (that take long time to fruition)..
Thus I agree based on the current administration track record..it is kind of 'wet dream'..hope the track record improved though..

For me..I suspect if there are bigger Frigates come after say 6 Sigma 10514 come to fruition..it will be more to 130m FX3000 Korean design or 12515 of Sigma..with more VL MICA as AAW.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well..Damen and the Danes do already in talk and serious to provide their Zeven Provincien or Iver Huidfelt as based for the 'so called' Frigates project. They don't mind to sell the design..afterall they need the jobs and potential new market for that kind of Frigates projects is focus in Asia-Australia region.

They will sell it..as long as Indonesia can come out the budget on that..and that's the big question for this administration..despite all the talks..
On previous posts..I already put my doubt on whether they will even finish all 10514 SIGMA..which being talked on 20 vessels altogether..heck even 6 is already very good considering this administration track record so far..so will see.

This full size frigates will cost at least 3 Sigma 10514, thus lets give a benefit of doubt on that 18-20 Sigma 10514 plan as multi years budget..
With that they can build 4 of this full size Frigates..and 6 Sigma 10514 at most..
Then again this is with so many 'if'..

As AAW..well they just sign VL MICA for the 2 Sigma 10514..and some now speculated that those 3 Bung Tomo Light Frigates also will used VL MICA to replace previous VL Sea Wolf installation.

Missile comes into range [INDODEF16-D2] | IHS Jane's 360

Well at least that one plan for AAW missiles procurement that come to fruition.

However for talking on Mk-41 VLS Standard SM2 that will be used as main AAW weapon for that so called "full size frigates"..like many in Indonesian forum wild speculates..well it's much more complex and expensive to even maintain than VL MICA (that take long time to fruition)..
Thus I agree based on the current administration track record..it is kind of 'wet dream'..hope the track record improved though..

For me..I suspect if there are bigger Frigates come after say 6 Sigma 10514 come to fruition..it will be more to 130m FX3000 Korean design or 12515 of Sigma..with more VL MICA as AAW.

Well, indeed, its just a matter of wait what the future brings....Maybe our government will eventually order a small amount of "full size frigates" but in ' fitted for but not with' configuration.... ...so without sophisticated sensor, weapon and communication systems and only armed with a 76 mm main gun, manually operated smaller guns and, if we are lucky, some cheap MANPADS installation...
So completely harmless for foreign naval forces but perfect for 5 Oktober (Hari ABRI). :laugh

The last years I only read a continues flow of 'news reports' about wishes, plans and wet dreams of ministers and other officials without seeing real results...so that's why I am so skeptical.

But now something else about the RM-70 Grad used by the Korps Marinir, various sources on the internet claims KM has between 4 to 7 RM-70s, but according to this admiral (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aSn4lxeGag) Kormar has 9 RM-70s at the moment and will receive 8 more, and their plan is to have 36 pieces of RM-70 Grad launchers in total. So was it the plan to have 36 launcers from the beginning? Is this part of the contract signed in the past or is this a new contract?

Edit: I have found some more information...
http://www.marinir.tnial.mil.id/index.php?berita=detail&id=2001

 

[Ananda]

If not mistaken, I read somewhere that it's part of new contract.
Well building hull is the cheapest part of todays modern naval vessels...that's what I say that the design can be derived frm Dane's Iver Huitfelt or Dutch Zeven Provincien..but getting same capabilities ? Well that's the budget talked that left many Indonesian internet forumers have 'wet dreams'..

Anyway moved frm Navy to Coast Guard (Bakamla)..they just revealed in Indo Defence their new 110m CG vessels that being build presently in Palindo facility.
Indo Defence 2016: PT Palindo discloses further details of 110 m vessel on order for BAKAMLA | IHS Jane's 360

No doubt the lessons on previous encounter between Indonesian CG and Chinese CG in LCS ..where Indonesian CG completely outclassed..create incentive to build CG vessels on this range.
It still smaller than largest Chinese CG, but not in so much margin. With this Indonesian CG can take more responsibility frm TNI-AL on conducting EEZ patrol.

 

[STURM]

Well building hull is the cheapest part of todays modern naval vessels...that's what I say that the design can be derived frm Dane's Iver Huitfelt or Dutch Zeven Provincien..but getting same capabilities ?

The final price will also depend on the how stringent a customer wants the damage control standards to be. If a customer wants extra water tight compartments, high shock standards and high build quality; it will add up to the overall costs. The Zeven Provinciens have quite tough DC standards, each ship is divided into separate compartments that can withstand a direct hit from a medium size ASM. If a customer wants minimal DC standards then the ship will be cheaper.

 

[Ananda]

I think with exposure to Damen Sigma design, and BAE build ex Nahkoda Ragam/Bung Tomo corvettes..the Indonesian Navy will want to have at least in those vessels DC standard. Which perhaps not the highest Damen or Bae DC standard can come out, but frm what I gather is already decent ones even frm both Manufactures standard.

However if either Zeven Provincien and Iver Huitfeldt being used as based for 140m-150m National Frigate design (yes frm what I gather there are project on that, coordinated by National Ship Design Center in Surabaya Institute of Technology), the questions more to how far advance the electronics and sensors will be, in my opinion. That's will determine what kind of missiles it can operate..which both electronics/sensors and misilles will make more than half of the cost.

Like I said on previous post, TNI-AL did have ambition to get area defence AAW in the 90's by gaining Dutch Tromp class guided missiles frigates with Mk13 Standard MR. Only East Timor situation plus Asian Economic crisis that prevented that.
So I believe they still keep the ambition to have at least a couple Area Defence AAW Frigates, which seems this 140-150m National Frigate design is aiming for.

The Indonesia industry and mindef aware perfectly that achieving that will not be feasible without based on proven Area AAW design. USD 1bio more or less needed for a decent Area AAW Frigates at least, and that compared cost of Sigma PKR 10514 of around USD 260-300 mio to complete finish..cost more than 3 vessels.

As they are not showing enough budget and commitment for getting the so called 1st batch of 6, how they are going to finance those 2 area AAW without sacrificing other naval modernisation program ??..well I have big doubt on that..

I personally think there are a camp of thinking on getting as many of PKR light frigates as possible plus additional subs to get to 12 subs force..and other camp that willing to reduces subs and PKR to get at least a couple of Area AAW Frigates that TNI-AL has long dream off frm the 90's...

Add: 2 Area AAW frigates is my assumption since in the 90's TNI-AL plan to acquire both Tromp and De Ruyter once the Dutch decomissioning them in end of 90's - early 2000.

 

[swerve]

You should be able to get an Iver Huitfeldt clone for less than USD1 billion, if it's built by the right yard. The Danes didn't spend that much, even allowing for all the things not included in the basic price of the ships.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks Swerve...just checking again on the cost of Iver Huitfelt..is considerably down frm USD 1bio even fully armed. Guess my USD 1bio is more in line with the cost of Zeven Provincien type..

Anyway..just backtracking a bit..got some info on budget for defense procurement (which is part of overall defense budget) on multi years 2015-2019 MEF2 (minimum essential forces)..The budget for procurement divided in to two..one USD budget for foreign procurement as USD 7.74 bio another IDR budget for domestic Procurement as IDR 15 trillion (or close to USD 1.17 on current exchange rate).

One of those info (got it frm defense studies on line which quote that frm Kontan newspaper), shown USD 1.0 bio budget for surface strike forces which then divided into USD 780 mio for Frigate and USD 220 mio for PKR light frigate.
Now it's known the budget for 1 PKR is set around USD 210-USD 220 mio..and the current 2 PKR used budget frm MEF1 (2009-2014). Thus based on that 'theoritically' during the period 2015-2019 there is budget of USD 780 mio for that 'full size frigate', plus another one PKR light frigate.

With that kind of budget, I do believe a Zeven Provincien clone will cut to tight..and perhaps an Iver Huitfeldt clone will cut more nicely. With one PKR slotted around USD 220, and if they can get an Iver Huitfeldt clone to around half billion dollars..then they can still add another PKR, thus order 2 PKR as second batch contract just like current batch of two.

Well..that's speculation based on budget numbers..which will depend 'if' this administration in the end used it as plan.

 

[tonnyc]

Note that there are people in the Navy who very much prefer that the limited budget is used to get more Sigma frigates until a sufficient number is reached and only then worry about getting something else. So we may end up continuing with more Sigma 10514 or maybe something slightly larger (11514 has been mentioned) instead of an Iver Huitfeldt. The argument is that replacing the Van Speijk should take priority, and the Sigma 10514 is cheaper and is already ongoing and thus the limited budget should be focused on that. The idea is to get one Sigma 10514 built per year.

It is not certain yet which point of view will prevail, but I think funneling the money into Sigma 10514 makes more sense than getting yet another hull type.

Edit: looks like Ananda already said the same thing. In that case consider this a confirmation that there is indeed two competing POV for the navy procurement plan.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Note that there are people in the Navy who very much prefer that the limited budget is used to get more Sigma frigates until a sufficient number is reached and only then worry about getting something else. So we may end up continuing with more Sigma 10514 or maybe something slightly larger (11514 has been mentioned) instead of an Iver Huitfeldt. The argument is that replacing the Van Speijk should take priority, and the Sigma 10514 is cheaper and is already ongoing and thus the limited budget should be focused on that. The idea is to get one Sigma 10514 built per year.

It is not certain yet which point of view will prevail, but I think funneling the money into Sigma 10514 makes more sense than getting yet another hull type.

Edit: looks like Ananda already said the same thing. In that case consider this a confirmation that there is indeed two competing POV for the navy procurement plan.

Personally I also think that focusing on the SIGMA 10514 program is more practical, cost-effective and time-efficiently than an additional prestigious large frigate program. If we have to split the budget, there is a chance that the SIGMA 10514 procurement and production will slow down and that in the end the costs of the large frigate project will exceed the planning which will result in one or two large frigates in a "fitted for but not with" configuration....