Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[swerve]

...
With that kind of budget, I do believe a Zeven Provincien clone will cut to tight..and perhaps an Iver Huitfeldt clone will cut more nicely. With one PKR slotted around USD 220, and if they can get an Iver Huitfeldt clone to around half billion dollars......

IIRC the basic price of Iver Huitfeldt was about $350 mn. That isn't much of a guide to the final price, though, as it depends on the exchange rate (most costs were in Danish kroner & other European currencies), & it didn't include weapons. One result of the Stanflex system is that there are costs which can't be allocated to particular ships, as the Danes have a pool of weapons & some other equipment in Stanflex modules which can be swapped between ships.

I think that $500 mn should get you an Iver Huitfeldt, but not fully armed or equipped.

 

[Ananda]

So we may end up continuing with more Sigma 10514 or maybe something slightly larger (11514 has been mentioned) instead of an Iver,

The idea is to get one Sigma 10514 built per year.

In that case consider this a confirmation that there is indeed two competing POV for the navy procurement plan.

Tonnyc..talking about Sigma 11514..I only see the mock up model on video and photo..Seems the VLS is 8 cell Sylver perhaps A43 or A50..compared to 10514 which if not mistaken used Sylver A35..do you info on that frm Indodefence ?

Yes, frm what I heard and read between the lines..the POV side that want Full Size Frigates..one of the arguments seems linked to the limited capacity of PAL..that to get all 6 Sigma PKR build and enter the services will take another 4-6 years frm now. Thus it better to get full size frigates (at least initial first one) frm some European yard..whille PAL finishing another 4 Sigma PKR light frigates.

The ToT aspects of that..after they finishing build that full size frigates..and at the same period PAL finish build 4 additional Sigma PKR..they will help PAL to manufactured the next full size frigates (at least 1 or 2)..that way..'at least my understanding on the argument'..PKR project still on schedulle to replace all 6 Van Speijk, while at that period TNI-AL will also begin to induct a full size AAW Frigates that they already hoped frm the 90's.

But again..managing the budget will be a challange..but the arguments seems see this will be multi years budget, thus still manageable. That said..this will cut the number of plan PKR if this taken..

Some says 'politically' there are party in present administration that want this full size frigates, cause they see PKR was SBY/previous administration brain child. Thus they want something bigger that can be called frigates frm this administration brain child.
Well again this is just rumours but this administration do have ambition to create bigger and grandeur frm what previous administration plan and implemented.

@Swerve..then more likely the USD 780 mio budget for Frigate that being circulated..more fit to Iver Huitfeldt..since I don't think that kind of budget will get even a semi-fully armed Zeven Provincien.
This might be why the minister of deffence only come to see Iver Huitfeldt, while the technical team visit both Zeven Provincien and Iver Huitfeldt..However the budget for MEF2 only put 1 PKR budget, thus they can't used all USD 780 mio for the 'full size frigate'..caused they need to financed at least another one PKR.. thus make 2 financed in MEF2, so the last batch of 2 frm 6 PKR plan can be financed in MEF3.

Thus theoritically the USD 1bio (USD 780 mio for Frigate plus USD 220 mio for PKR) budget will be used to finance USD 500-550 mio full size frigate (Iver Huitfeldt clone), while USD 450 mio to finance 2nd batch of 2 PKR.

Again all this speculation based only to circulated MEF2 budget in media. Well the budget did seperate the budget for PKR and the budget for "frigate"..which then open to speculation.

 

[tonnyc]

@ananda

If you want some solid verifiable information regarding SIGMA 11514, then I am afraid I can not give you any. Damen did bring a mockup and high ranking Navy people talked to Damen, but that means nothing.

Regarding the timing aspect, yeah, with careful planning that can be made to work, but that is not the problem. Money is. What is the point of an Iver Huitfeldt if there is no money to equip it? Multi years budget? With the satellite, the F-5 replacement, and the submarines, the procurement budget for the next five years is pretty much spoken for. Any money left is better off used to equip the ships rather than buying another FFBNW hull.

 

[Ananda]

Well..this speculations is based on publish MEF2 budget that I attach in my post #658. Cause they did already seperated budget for PKR USD 220 mio (thus only fit for 1 PKR) and another USD 780 mio for 'Frigate' budget. This come frm 'Kontan' newspaper which Kontan is quaite reluable source on things financial.

I also read November edition on International Fleet Review Warships, where there's article stating 6 Van Speijk do planned to be replace by 6 Sigma (PKR), where 2 already build, and another 2 will be build soon. Thus seems indicating the next batch of PKR contract will be for 2 vessels as some in local forum indicating.
Thus the 2nd PKR frm 2nd batch should used money frm USD 780 mio budget since the 1st PKR frm 2nd batch already allocated USD 220 mio. All 1st batch of 2 PKR (existing build) should already used budget frm MEF1 (under SBY administration).

Assuming the 2nd batch of 2 PKR will used USD 440 mio (deducting USD 220 mio of 'frigate' USD 780 mio budget to add USD 220 mio that already allocated for PKR), then that left USD 560 mio left to be used for this 'frigate'.
Just see Kiwi Rob post in NZ Navy thread that showing article frm 'frontline'.
2143-Warship-Design| FrontLine Defence

On this the basic platform of Iver Huitfeldt class last vessel Niels Juel cost USD 150mio, and overall cost to build according to Dane's is USD 395 mio (which I do believe it's still not fully armed since the Danes do add additional weapon modules later)...Thus based on this USD 560 mio still sufficient to get relatively armed Iver Huitfeldt thus meet the ambition on some people in Navy and current administration to have AAW Frigate (which meet NATO standard)...While in other hand still keep the PKR project on track to replace all Van Speijk (as the 3rd batch of 2 thus ship no 5 and 6 must be financed through MEF3 anyway)..

Again my speculation based on indication on the budget that the navy and mindef planner did seems try to have another type of hull besides PKR as Frigates..this related to rumours that I heard where Jokowi's administration think PKR is SBY plan..thus they want another bigger Frigate that can be claimed as their plan and not just finishing SBY plan. On other word there is 'political ego' factor that also play in.

Never say this is the ideal one..but only speculating if the real amount of budget do materiliase as plan in paper..they do have room to procured a 'full size' Frigate while in same time still on track with PKR.

Anyway..PKR already used Sylver VLS (A35 if not mistaken)..thus if this 'frigate' do materiliase..Sylver VLS A50 logically will be used instead MK41 being used by Danes in Iver..wondering which one really more economical though..

Just add..Sri Mulyani as Finance Minister already indicating that the economy of this year growth is around 5% +/- at best..thus still relatively weak (despite some in the administration boasting that Indonesia economic growth still one of the highest in the world)..Sri Mulyani is the only one in cabinet that I relatively trusted..where much of the rest in current administration full of dreamers with very questionable competency (this comment will get some Jokowow furrious as before) ..perhaps because she's the only one that come frm previous administration..and supervise Indonesian Economy during 2008 global recession.
In short the budget of MEF2 still not guarantee will be implemented all as plan, since 2017 will still be challanging year.

 

[tonnyc]

While I have no doubt that Kontan newspaper is indeed reporting what they were told by their source, the Ministry of Defence do not have budgetary power and do not have the authority to take loans. The "Ministry of Defense's Planned Foreign Loan-based Acquisition" is subject to review by the Ministry of Finance and approval by Congress. When we see the 2017 defense budget (no real change from 2016) and the government's current instance on foreign loans (pay them off and reduce the amount), I think it is a safe bet to assume that not everything in that list will be acquired.

I am sure there are factions that want a "bigger project" but I am going to bank on the ministry of finance to rein in empty gestures like that.

 

[Ananda]

Gov't Mulls Plan to Buys Submarines from Sweden   | National | Tempo.Co :: Indonesian News Portal

Another MoU. This only confirm the seriousness frm Sweden side to get working projects within Indonesian defense Industry.

With SAAB already getting some initial plan with Pindad to upgrade existing RBS 70 in Army inventory, the plan now within this MoU is to get cooperation on Fighters and Submarines.
The Submarines infrastucture that being build in PAL Surabaya is supposedly able to handle manufacturing and assembly up to 2000 dwt Submarines or up to 70m in length. Thus within specs on Swedes existing design.

Again this still an MOU, and with this administration track record..any MoU are still long way to go before anything real can come out.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Gov't Mulls Plan to Buys Submarines from Sweden Â* | National | Tempo.Co :: Indonesian News Portal

Another MoU. This only confirm the seriousness frm Sweden side to get working projects within Indonesian defense Industry.

With SAAB already getting some initial plan with Pindad to upgrade existing RBS 70 in Army inventory, the plan now within this MoU is to get cooperation on Fighters and Submarines.
The Submarines infrastucture that being build in PAL Surabaya is supposedly able to handle manufacturing and assembly up to 2000 dwt Submarines or up to 70m in length. Thus within specs on Swedes existing design.

Again this still an MOU, and with this administration track record..any MoU are still long way to go before anything real can come out.

Thank you for sharing. Well, dont worry, i dont expect anything, these are just plans to start maybe something in the future if there is enough budget left over....perhaps....
Our current minister of defence proudly told the press, not so long ago, that "in the near future there is the possibillity that 10 submarines are at sea."
Since he is minister, the only things he can do is dreaming, talking and fantasizing...

 

[Ananda]

Ha,ha..the present administration is full of ministers that like to talk and dream..while most of their doing is to finish what SBY projects.

Still the 'Jokowow' fans club saying that this administration are already doing this..doing that..well even on Economics policy, this administration has to 'revert' back to Sri Mulyani and doing back the 'fiscal dicipline' of SBY era.

Will see how this going turn out..like I said..'talk is cheap'..implementation is everything. This President always say "less talk work more"..why I see his cabinet is doing otherwise..'talk more and work less'..
Thank god there is Sri Mulyani to refrain and and bring back sense of reality..

Making MoU with Sweden for Gripen and 'Kockums' Sub design is good move..if you have enough resources in place to do that. Right now, the infrastucture for Submarine in PAL and Fighters projects in DI are being prepared, but that for Type 209 and KFX projects with ROK. Are they already preparing something else to back this MoU with Sweden ?

 

[Ananda]

Skeldar V-200 VTOL UAV for Indonesian Navy.

Bit late as news..but haven't update Indonesian Navy news for a whille..

UMS Skeldar Delivers SKELDAR V-200 to Indonesia - Mönch Verlagsgesellschaft mbH

SAAB really begin to shown more projects with Indonesian Military. The UAV for Navy is not begin with this, but compared to AF, TNI AL involvement with UAV is less advance. This supposedly will be placed in the Frigates allongside the new Panther ASW which 3 already send by Airbus to DI for final system fitting and integration

http://www.airbushelicopters.com/we...hree-AS565-MBe-Panther-to-Indonesia_2046.html

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Not really exposed, but KRI Raden Eddy Martadinata 331 is already handed over to TNI-AL by PAL and Koninklijke Schelde.
Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding delivers first SIGMA 10514 PKR frigate to Indonesian Ministry of Defence
Now its just a matter of time until it will be commissioned by our navy. I just wonder if all of the weapon systems are operative...

 

[ASSAIL]

Not really exposed, but KRI Raden Eddy Martadinata 331 is already handed over to TNI-AL by PAL and Koninklijke Schelde.
Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding delivers first SIGMA 10514 PKR frigate to Indonesian Ministry of Defence
Now its just a matter of time until it will be commissioned by our navy. I just wonder if all of the weapon systems are operative...

Surely all weapons systems will be tested and commissioned as part of the harbour and sea trial regime.
DSNS are not new to this business.

 

[tonnyc]

Surely all weapons systems will be tested and commissioned as part of the harbour and sea trial regime.
DSNS are not new to this business.

You misunderstand. Nobody doubts DSNS's competence. Sandhi Yudha instead doubts that the weapon systems were purchased to begin with but is trying to avoid saying so directly.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

You misunderstand. Nobody doubts DSNS's competence. Sandhi Yudha instead doubts that the weapon systems were purchased to begin with but is trying to avoid saying so directly.

You know exactly what I mean....
I have heard that the second ship will be delivered completely with the weapon systems "instead of the first one". So I wonder if the first vessel is delivered only with the maingun or also with (and which) other weapon systems...

I really hate it when our government buy toothless defence systems, like they did with the first batch of Su-27SK and Su-30MK...

 

[Ananda]

https://sputniknews.com/military/201703211051796709-subs-russia-indonesia-deliveries/

The Russian are not stopping their effort for Kilo's derivative SSK..This deal already being talked for more than a decade..
Wonder what this administration will talk to support this deal. They already spend millions of dollars in building Submarine manufacturing facilities in PAL Surabaya..the third 209 Changbogo will be assembly there, and they are positively talk in media..further submarines will build in Surabaya PAL facilities.

The Russian clearly did not want to manufactured their submarines export in Indonesia for only couple subs orders..it will be interesting to see Jokowow administration selling the deal..if they are going through..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks for sharing Ananda, we will see what the current administration will do, until now they have the policy to not buy anything at all....

What's the current status btw of KRI Klewang class Fast Missile Boats? The super futuristic high tech stealthy too-good-to-be-true trimaran program....
The last thing I heard about it is that only one vessel will be completed, but then without weaponsystems, so completely empty and toothless.
Is this true, and if so, why?

 

[Ananda]

Scorpene ?

French, Indonesian naval firms extend submarine study

Seems like Australia,..Indonesia decided to 'potentially' goes 'French' on the next Submarine projects.
According to this, Indonesia not really happy with the pace of 'tech transfer' on Submarine manufacturing with South Korea..Despite already invest more than USD 100mio on Submarine Yard facility..modelled frm DSME submarine facility..PAL decided to have talk with French DCNS 3 years ago..indicating that as report says..they are not really satisfied with the pace of Submarine cooperation with DSME.

Will it then definetely goes to French ? Well like everything in Indonesian procurement..it full of 'sudden twist' on condition.
Pal besides with DSME on current projects..also talk with French DCNS, Swedish SAAB..and Russian Rubin for potential tech transfer on Submarine.
However DCNS already shown local manufacturing projects with Pakistan and India..thus they do have 'model' for join cooperation that workable for local submarine manufacturing..thus on that side seems DCNS track record can back it up..
So..we'll see when it happen..

@Sandhi Yudha..on Kelewang 'stealth' FPB projects..no much talk on this progress..except that Saab already move out as Tech supplier..seems Saab already seen that the current admin and naval heads did not shown much enthusiasm on the projects. The Navy now shown more intention to invest in litoral FPB with local design 40m and 60 m that churning out from local shipyards.

They want to invest big up to 42 FPB of that PC 40, and PC 60 design, which is based on locally designed Fast Missiles Boats (KCR in Indonesian) 40 and 60.
With Navy intention on KCR 40 and KCR 60 as also PC 40 and PC 60..indicating that Navy wants to invest on more conventional proven design then 'stealth' design on Kelewang.
Still so far in media, they still want to see at least one 'stealth' as tech demonstrator..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

French, Indonesian naval firms extend submarine study

Seems like Australia,..Indonesia decided to 'potentially' goes 'French' on the next Submarine projects.
According to this, Indonesia not really happy with the pace of 'tech transfer' on Submarine manufacturing with South Korea..Despite already invest more than USD 100mio on Submarine Yard facility..modelled frm DSME submarine facility..PAL decided to have talk with French DCNS 3 years ago..indicating that as report says..they are not really satisfied with the pace of Submarine cooperation with DSME.

Will it then definetely goes to French ? Well like everything in Indonesian procurement..it full of 'sudden twist' on condition.
Pal besides with DSME on current projects..also talk with French DCNS, Swedish SAAB..and Russian Rubin for potential tech transfer on Submarine.
However DCNS already shown local manufacturing projects with Pakistan and India..thus they do have 'model' for join cooperation that workable for local submarine manufacturing..thus on that side seems DCNS track record can back it up..
So..we'll see when it happen..

@Sandhi Yudha..on Kelewang 'stealth' FPB projects..no much talk on this progress..except that Saab already move out as Tech supplier..seems Saab already seen that the current admin and naval heads did not shown much enthusiasm on the projects. The Navy now shown more intention to invest in litoral FPB with local design 40m and 60 m that churning out from local shipyards.

They want to invest big up to 42 FPB of that PC 40, and PC 60 design, which is based on locally designed Fast Missiles Boats (KCR in Indonesian) 40 and 60.
With Navy intention on KCR 40 and KCR 60 as also PC 40 and PC 60..indicating that Navy wants to invest on more conventional proven design then 'stealth' design on Kelewang.
Still so far in media, they still want to see at least one 'stealth' as tech demonstrator..

Thanks for sharing and replying, Ananda!
About the "Scorpene and potential surface vessels"...its just a plan under study.... As you already said, you can expect plot twists any moment....specially cancellations...
Well at least we have ordered 18 more Caesar 155 mm artillery systems, I think that's the first large defence order from this administration, right?

 

[Ananda]

To be fair, they (the present admin) are already sign contract for 2nd batch KCR 60 missiles boats and further contract for PC40 and PC60 patrol boats. Also they seems already sign agreement with LM on MLU for original 10 F-16 A/B OCU to have same standard with the upgrade 24 F-15 C/D.

But yes..basically what they are doing right now is finishing previous admin procurements.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

To be fair, they (the present admin) are already sign contract for 2nd batch KCR 60 missiles boats and further contract for PC40 and PC60 patrol boats. Also they seems already sign agreement with LM on MLU for original 10 F-16 A/B OCU to have same standard with the upgrade 24 F-15 C/D.

But yes..basically what they are doing right now is finishing previous admin procurements.

Well, nice to know that they also doing more than just harvest new defence materials which were all ordered by the previous administration.
About the KCR-60/ Sampari Class, the plan is to order 35 pcs of them in total, right?
The first three of these ships are all armed with old obsolete Bofors 57 Mk1 guns, are these things all second hand? And do they really plan to arm all of those 35 ships with that stuff?

 

[Ananda]

Sandhi come on..35 KCR 60? Before that they talk 16..then 35..then 42..for KCR both KCR 40 and 60..they change the number so much..sometimes either it's deliberately..or simply they haven't got fix number the budget can support.

So I tend to stick the number set by previous admin Minister of Defence Purnomo then what current administration Mindef said.
Purnomo set the number to aim at 16 KCR 40, 16 KCR 60 and 16 PC 40..so total 48..

This talk of 42 PC 40..or 44 KCR 40 and 60..I still believe it derived of the number targeted by previous admin on total KCR (missile boats) and PC (patrol boats)..that I've mentioned before..afterall they are now basically still following the plan set by previous admin.
The local forum full on speculations of 80+ litoral missiles and patrol boats based on what the media report of 42 PC and 44 KCR..but I believe getting the number that Purnomo's set..is already achievement if they can reach it. Considering the capacity of local shipyard plus the aim for other naval program and available budget..then I again believe that 48 of total KCR and PC is the most they can get..

As for 57mm boffors..well they are still using 40mm old boffors gun frm old ships that being decom..they plan for KCR 60 got 57mk3..but I believe when I see it..
There is also talk on using Chinese Type 730..or even AK-630 (chinese version) that already being put on 1st batch of KCR 40..

Again I believe when I see it..