Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesian Navy outlines specifications for seventh LPD | Jane's 360

This talk on 7th LPD, seems coincide with previous rumours that the 6th LPD now being build in PAL will be the last 2nd batch Makasar class LPD family. The first batch is the 3 LPD (including one that converted to Hospital ships) build in South Korea by Daesun. The 2nd batch in 3 LPD build un PAL under slightly modified design (including the 6th one still under construction), known as Banjarmasin class. Philipine Navy multipurpose vessels follow this batch specification with slight differentiate

Thus this 7th LPD rumoured to be part of 3rd batch, which PAL says going to ve more complex and more capable. The price tag itself seems shown close to twice price of Banjarmasin class.

Thank you for sharing Ananda! Nice to know that more of these great ships will follow, so while the sixth ship will be the same as 592 and 593, the 7th will be "more complex" and with a price of $72 million almost twice as the others. It will be constructed as a command ship, from which I understand, but I'm afraid that it will be armed with some second hand manually operated guns, like all the others. With other words, without a decent CIWS, and thus totally defenceless against anti-ship missiles. One of these seaskimmers, and such a great ship with hundreds of marines onboard gone....

 

[Ananda]

Got this frm internet (original frm id Pr1v4t33r). Old TNI AL tall training sail ship KRI Dewa Rutji greet its replacement KRI Bima Suci that just came frm its builder in Spain.

 

[ngatimozart]

Got this frm internet (original frm id Pr1v4t33r). Old TNI AL tall training sail ship KRI Dewa Rutji greet its replacement KRI Bima Suci that just came frm its builder in Spain.

Tall ships - nice, very nice.

 

[Ananda]

https://youtu.be/4bzBqxZhs2c

Video frm CNN Indonesia on Bima Suci arival. Dewa Rutji already in service ftm the 50's..close 60 years. Plan on using it as Museum Ship.

 

[spoz]

Have very pleasant memories of being onboard Dewarutji when she was in Australia for the Cook Bicentennial in 1970, including playing in a (very average!) rock band, and competitively climbing the foremast - oh to be young again. She is looking a bit tired, though, - and smaller than I remember. Her replacement is a fine looking ship, hope Indonesia gets as good service from her.

 

[Ananda]

Launching on Indonesian Coast Guard (BAKAMLA) Cutter. This 110m Cutter also the largest Patrol Ship being build locally, frm Batam based shipyard. 110m actualy make this cutter slightly larger then Damen PKR Light Frigates being build in Surabaya.

https://youtu.be/a7Du_p-u0bE

Unconfirmed report told that this design which basically a local design, also being forwarded to compete on OPV design for the Navy. However if this true, they will have to face competition frm matured OPV design from Damen and DCNS.

Add aditional pictures on the Cutter from Tribunnews online.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Launching on Indonesian Coast Guard (BAKAMLA) Cutter. This 110m Cutter also the largest Patrol Ship being build locally, frm Batam based shipyard. 110m actualy make this cutter slightly larger then Damen PKR Light Frigates being build in Surabaya.

https://youtu.be/a7Du_p-u0bE

Unconfirmed report told that this design which basically a local design, also being forwarded to compete on OPV design for the Navy. However if this true, they will have to face competition frm matured OPV design from Damen and DCNS.

Add aditional pictures on the Cutter from Tribunnews online.

Thank you for sharing.
Here some more info.
Bakamla RI Luncurkan Kapal Baru ~ RADAR INDONESIA

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia reduces submarine requirements from 12 to 8 in revised modernisation plan | Jane's 360

Have meaning to post this few days ago..but the sites under maintenance..good upgrade on the so far though..

This decision to reduce the plan Submarine to 8, basically is more in line with realistic calculation that by 2024, additional 3 submarine (thus make it to 8 frm current 5 ) are the most they can get in that time frame.

However this is also depend on current administration (especially mindef), in changing their executional track record. As I mentioned in previous post, the current defence ministry track record on executing their own plan (called MEF 2), is questionable. Most procurement currently still based on contracts (whether frm domestic or foreign suppliers) that being executed in previous administration era (MEF 1). If they want to have those 3 additional Subs available by 2024, then they need to executed the contract by 2018..

For fair few of current admin original MEF2 contract has been executed. However based on parliement data, (come frm one of ruling parties, thus this admin allies there) it's only 30% of MEF2 contract being executed. This only related to contract execution, since the fullfilment of contract will begin to come on next administration era.

This's something that many current administration supporter in various media did not understand (or deluding them selves)..
MEF1 contract that executed frm previous admin, will come on this admin term (including payments)..Current MEF2 contract that can be executed on present term, will come to fruition by next admin term.
If current Admin did not finish the MEF2 contract by this term, and they lost the next election, then new admin will come to place which potentially means to revise MEF2 that not yet being executed, while in same time MEF3 that should come on next term can be jeopardise..

This then making mess to whole Indonesian defense planning..

But then, current admin is good in image building, and many media tycons are in current admin stance..
Thus perhaps they don't care on some failures on execution, as long as they have their image building machines work hards on every media..

 

[spoz]

This then making mess to whole Indonesian defense planning..

But then, current admin is good in image building, and many media tycons are in current admin stance..
Thus perhaps they don't care on some failures on execution, as long as they have their image building machines work hards on every media..

If that is so, then Indonesia is far from alone in facing a situation where politicians think more about the image than the substance! Let’s hope not, and that the good progress that TNI-AL in particular has been making over the last several years is maintained. Although, from my limited level of knowledge, I must admit that 8 submarines seems a more realistic number to aim for than 12.

 

[Ananda]

If that is so, then Indonesia is far from alone in facing a situation where politicians think more about the image than the substance! Let’s hope not, and that the good progress that TNI-AL in particular has been making over the last several years is maintained. Although, from my limited level of knowledge, I must admit that 8 submarines seems a more realistic number to aim for than 12.

Yes, it's more realistic. My ranting above mostly on the track record of this administration to fulfill their own Defense planning.

The 3 DSME 209 contract execution is being plan and executed 2 years before the previous admin end of term. Even that it take the wholle term of present admin to get those 3, because the natural progress on building those 3 subs need that kind of time table.

2024 is only 6 years from now, and if they want to have additional batch of 3 to be ready on that time frame they have to execute the contract now.

Hope they can change their execution process, since the track record shown their contractual execution frame is poor at best..
They should speed up their work..but somehow personally I'm not confince. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia reduces submarine requirements from 12 to 8 in revised modernisation plan | Jane's 360

Have meaning to post this few days ago..but the sites under maintenance..good upgrade on the so far though..

This decision to reduce the plan Submarine to 8, basically is more in line with realistic calculation that by 2024, additional 3 submarine (thus make it to 8 frm current 5 ) are the most they can get in that time frame.

However this is also depend on current administration (especially mindef), in changing their executional track record. As I mentioned in previous post, the current defence ministry track record on executing their own plan (called MEF 2), is questionable. Most procurement currently still based on contracts (whether frm domestic or foreign suppliers) that being executed in previous administration era (MEF 1). If they want to have those 3 additional Subs available by 2024, then they need to executed the contract by 2018..

For fair few of current admin original MEF2 contract has been executed. However based on parliement data, (come frm one of ruling parties, thus this admin allies there) it's only 30% of MEF2 contract being executed. This only related to contract execution, since the fullfilment of contract will begin to come on next administration era.

This's something that many current administration supporter in various media did not understand (or deluding them selves)..
MEF1 contract that executed frm previous admin, will come on this admin term (including payments)..Current MEF2 contract that can be executed on present term, will come to fruition by next admin term.
If current Admin did not finish the MEF2 contract by this term, and they lost the next election, then new admin will come to place which potentially means to revise MEF2 that not yet being executed, while in same time MEF3 that should come on next term can be jeopardise..

This then making mess to whole Indonesian defense planning..

But then, current admin is good in image building, and many media tycons are in current admin stance..
Thus perhaps they don't care on some failures on execution, as long as they have their image building machines work hards on every media..

Hehe...i planned also to post the same article a couple of days ago, and then Defencetalk was offline....
Its also remarkable that one of the candidates will be possible the Scorpene 1000 variant ("Other options considered by the country include the ‘Kilo’ class from Russia, and a variant of the Scorpene 1000 from France’s Naval Group."), the smallest version of the Scorpene. There is no much information about this variant, i only could find this: SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine - Naval Technology So thats a submarine with a maximum diving depth of 200 meters, limited range, endurance, mission duration and very slowly..... Seems like a cheaper and downgraded version of the Malaysian Scorpenes.

 

[tonnyc]

Hehe...i planned also to post the same article a couple of days ago, and then Defencetalk was offline....
Its also remarkable that one of the candidates will be possible the Scorpene 1000 variant ("Other options considered by the country include the ‘Kilo’ class from Russia, and a variant of the Scorpene 1000 from France’s Naval Group."), the smallest version of the Scorpene. There is no much information about this variant, i only could find this: SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine - Naval Technology So thats a submarine with a maximum diving depth of 200 meters, limited range, endurance, mission duration and very slowly..... Seems like a cheaper and downgraded version of the Malaysian Scorpenes.

The sensible approach is to continue with getting DSME 209 or perhaps an advanced version of it (here's hoping for Type 214/KSS II). Investment is already made for local assembly of that model. I am still surprised that the Russo-philic faction in the Indonesian Navy refuses to abandon their wish for Kilo-class submarines. Insisting on that class (or Scorpene) will just lead to a smorgasbord submarine fleet with two completely different logistical tails, thus either diminishing the fleet's effectiveness or else increasing their logistical costs by a significant margin. The first is stupid because if we already have a fleet that's limited in number we can't afford to reduce its effectiveness and the second is stupid because if the fleet size has been reduced to save money, the increased logistical cost from two completely different submarine model is just going to make it worse.

The Scorpene 1000 is not the Andrasta. It is slightly larger at 50 m and 1000 tonnes. Here's the DCNS brochure.
(hmmm, in the new forum software the url tag is invisible, making me unsure whether I've properly linked the URL until I checked it with preview. Can all the tags be made visible and manually editable?)

The current minister of defense is indeed incompetent. The myth that the defense minister ought to be an ex-soldier because "they understand defense" needs to die in a fire and I am hoping that the current minister of defense's incompetence will kill that myth permanently. That'll be at least a good silver lining to the current minister of defense's track record. I'm so glad that the foreign ministry continues their tradition of excellence so we don't have to deal with an actual military crisis.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The sensible approach is to continue with getting DSME 209 or perhaps an advanced version of it (here's hoping for Type 214/KSS II). Investment is already made for local assembly of that model. I am still surprised that the Russo-philic faction in the Indonesian Navy refuses to abandon their wish for Kilo-class submarines. Insisting on that class (or Scorpene) will just lead to a smorgasbord submarine fleet with two completely different logistical tails, thus either diminishing the fleet's effectiveness or else increasing their logistical costs by a significant margin. The first is stupid because if we already have a fleet that's limited in number we can't afford to reduce its effectiveness and the second is stupid because if the fleet size has been reduced to save money, the increased logistical cost from two completely different submarine model is just going to make it worse.

The Scorpene 1000 is not the Andrasta. It is slightly larger at 50 m and 1000 tonnes. Here's the DCNS brochure.
(hmmm, in the new forum software the url tag is invisible, making me unsure whether I've properly linked the URL until I checked it with preview. Can all the tags be made visible and manually editable?)

The current minister of defense is indeed incompetent. The myth that the defense minister ought to be an ex-soldier because "they understand defense" needs to die in a fire and I am hoping that the current minister of defense's incompetence will kill that myth permanently. That'll be at least a good silver lining to the current minister of defense's track record. I'm so glad that the foreign ministry continues their tradition of excellence so we don't have to deal with an actual military crisis.

Thank you for sharing the information... (I also have to get used to this new Defencetalk style)

So, the Andrasta-class is not a small 900-1000 tons variant of the Scorpene?
Reading "The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene."
SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine - Naval Technology

"A development of the Scorpène class submarine and based on the previous SMX-23 concept,[3] it is a smaller vessel optimised for shallow water operations."
Andrasta-class submarine - Wikipedia

https://www.naval-group.com/wp-cont...-1000-ocean-efficiency-littoral-supremacy.pdf

Makes me really confused, specially because the characteristics/specifications are exactly the same....


Well, we will see if Indonesian Navy will add three more submarines the next seven years. Like Ananda already said several times, the acquisition procedure of the current administration doesnt really go fast and smooth. And i think after 2024 KRI Cakra 401 and KRI Nanggala 402 also need to be replaced after almost 50 years.

 

[tonnyc]

Re: Andrasta and Scorpene 1000.

The Andrasta is supposed to have a 3000 nautical miles range while the Scorpene 1000 is claimed to have a 4000 nm range. This is the major difference between the two variants. The difference in weight and size comes from the fuel necessary to achieve that range.

As for acquisitions, we'll see. It's not all slow. I was taken by surprise by the acquisition of two more Makassar class LPDs. Those happened with very little fanfare. Early this year they suddenly conducted the steel-cutting ceremony when the public didn't even know that a contract had been signed, and I think sometime in September they casually said that the second one was about one-third done and there wasn't any public steel cutting ceremony or contract signing.

Admittedly the LPDs are cheap, so it's relatively an easy job to secure the f
approval. A submarine might be tougher, but we'll see.

 

[Ananda]

@tonnyc..interesting thing about that additional LPD order. Got some info frm friend in state enterprise ministry, saying that LPD order is cooked up quite fast to help PAL cash flow.

PAL should get new order for additional batch of PKR, as planned on their cash flow projection. However due to one thing to another (which he did not want to explain), the order did not come out as plan..at same time PAL already take some loan..add resources and Investment for defense ministry job..

I have left State Owned company environment..but friends that still stay in that area..indicating that this kind of patch up work/project increasingly more common in bigger frequency during this administration..

Patch up project is common during previous administration on state owned enterprises..however this administration patch up projects are more frequent..which shown gapping problem between planing and execution/implementation..
Ironically this come out frm administration that being build on image making of more profesionalism then previous one..

Back to the Sub..
Yes, the most ideal way is continuing 209 projects or 214..which way many speculating where the next project should be..
Forgot this Kilo, Lada or even Scorpene derivatives..The logical way is to build on capacity and resources that being prepared..

Still, getting with Russian band wagon is attractive due to much more "alternatives" that can cooked up for 'deal' structure

That's why 'cynically' I saw it way many politicians, and ministry guys still cooked up this Kilo ides in various media..

 

[swerve]

..
As for acquisitions, we'll see. It's not all slow. I was taken by surprise by the acquisition of two more Makassar class LPDs. Those happened with very little fanfare. Early this year they suddenly conducted the steel-cutting ceremony when the public didn't even know that a contract had been signed, and I think sometime in September they casually said that the second one was about one-third done and there wasn't any public steel cutting ceremony or contract signing.

Admittedly the LPDs are cheap, so it's relatively an easy job to secure the f
approval. A submarine might be tougher, but we'll see.

The LPDs also have considerable value in peacetime, as military transports & for disaster relief & other emergencies.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

@tonnyc..interesting thing about that additional LPD order. Got some info frm friend in state enterprise ministry, saying that LPD order is cooked up quite fast to help PAL cash flow.

PAL should get new order for additional batch of PKR, as planned on their cash flow projection. However due to one thing to another (which he did not want to explain), the order did not come out as plan..at same time PAL already take some loan..add resources and Investment for defense ministry job..

I have left State Owned company environment..but friends that still stay in that area..indicating that this kind of patch up work/project increasingly more common in bigger frequency during this administration..

Patch up project is common during previous administration on state owned enterprises..however this administration patch up projects are more frequent..which shown gapping problem between planing and execution/implementation..
Ironically this come out frm administration that being build on image making of more profesionalism then previous one..

Back to the Sub..
Yes, the most ideal way is continuing 209 projects or 214..which way many speculating where the next project should be..
Forgot this Kilo, Lada or even Scorpene derivatives..The logical way is to build on capacity and resources that being prepared..

Still, getting with Russian band wagon is attractive due to much more "alternatives" that can cooked up for 'deal' structure

That's why 'cynically' I saw it way many politicians, and ministry guys still cooked up this Kilo ides in various media..

But ive to admit that the Project 636 has one big advantage above all its rivals: the capability to use the 3M54 Kalibr/Klub familiy of anti ship and land attack cruise missiles. Of course the Scorpene can be equipped with the SM-39, but the range is only 50 km. Korean-made type 209 can theoritically use the UGM-84, but then we have to order them first from the US, which will take a lot of time and it makes us also vulnerable to embargos.

The production-rate of the 636 is also quite high.

But buying the 636 has also one big disadvantage: no ToT.


The Type 209 is a proven design, but it seems that the Type 214 had a lot of problems serving in the Hellenic and South-Korean Navy.

 

[Ananda]

Don't see getting US weapon will take long time..in fact for Indonesia so far..getting US weapon so far is faster than getting Russian weapon..in the end money talks..

Embargo can come from any suppliers..not just US...if we did something that considered unfriendly by Russia, they can embargo us as fast as US embargo us on similar condition from their point of view.

Anyway any SSM that can fit 533mm (21 inch) standard Nato torpedo tube (like in 209) can theoritically launch from 209. The most important from my understanding is the missiles software compatibility with the submarine system. So Exocet SM39 should be made compatible if effort being made to to that. ROK also now in process developing their own sub launch SSM. In sense sub harpoon is not the only choice.

Problem now is operating Submarine is not cheap, we can see what happen to Argentinian San Juan tragedy shown how what happen if you don't provide enough funding.
Thus operating same kind of Submarine with share much similarity in logistics and maintenance infrastructure is very crucial for developing nation like us.

I can't say much on 214 problems in Greece and ROK service..but from I read..Greece problem related to funding issue too..besides Greece is the first 214 users, thus like any early users for new design..some problems bound to happen. I do believe 214 now already more mature submarine.

 

[tonnyc]

But ive to admit that the Project 636 has one big advantage above all its rivals: the capability to use the 3M54 Kalibr/Klub familiy of anti ship and land attack cruise missiles. Of course the Scorpene can be equipped with the SM-39, but the range is only 50 km. Korean-made type 209 can theoritically use the UGM-84, but then we have to order them first from the US, which will take a lot of time and it makes us also vulnerable to embargos.

The production-rate of the 636 is also quite high.

But buying the 636 has also one big disadvantage: no ToT.

The missile attack capability is irrelevant if the launcher module and the missiles are not procured. Considering that the number of missiles procured for the Indonesian Navy's surface fleet, I am highly skeptical there's sufficient funding to procure Klub missiles and the vertical launcher modules should they buy the Kilo-class submarines.

Again, if there is insufficient money to fund twelve subs, it's important that the Navy use the available money effectively. Kilo submarine procurement is not going to be cheap. It's not going to save money compared to procuring locally-assembled DSME 209/1400. So if there's no money to be saved, where is the money for the missiles coming from? We can very easily end up slashing the number down from eight to six in order to scrape enough money to fund two completely different types of submarines and their respective armaments.

Re: Type 214 problems.
HDW claims they have fixed those problems. Anyway, it's likely that the next two submarines will be DSME 209/1400. So we have the time to wait and see. Besides, if we implement current technology into the Type 209 line, the resulting submarine will effectively be as capable as a Type 214.

 

[ASSAIL]

Re: Type 214 problems.
HDW claims they have fixed those problems. Anyway, it's likely that the next two submarines will be DSME 209/1400. So we have the time to wait and see. Besides, if we implement current technology into the Type 209 line, the resulting submarine will effectively be as capable as a Type 214.

The link which I posted below, finger problems, reports that there are funding and quality problems at HDW which have left the U Boat force in a perilous state although this is likely to improve over the next couple of years.
I'm not sure about the veracity of the report though because, going by the title of the mag, it definitely wouldn't be sympathetic to Defence.