Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesian Navy receives pitch for Type 214 submarine from Golcük Shipyard | IHS Jane's 360

Seems The Turks (which frm what I heard works together with TKMS)..Continue their luck with now 214. Previous bid for 209, they lost to Korean DSME. With the French offering local manufacturing for Scorpene (whether Scorpene 1000 or 2000), it's seems French design vs German design..

The Russian still try their luck with their Latest Kilo's design..but politically..without local manufacturing (which the French, Korean and now Turks/German offering)..don't see how the Russian offer can be accepted.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Indonesian Navy receives pitch for Type 214 submarine from Golcük Shipyard | IHS Jane's 360

Seems The Turks (which frm what I heard works together with TKMS)..Continue their luck with now 214. Previous bid for 209, they lost to Korean DSME. With the French offering local manufacturing for Scorpene (whether Scorpene 1000 or 2000), it's seems French design vs German design..

The Russian still try their luck with their Latest Kilo's design..but politically..without local manufacturing (which the French, Korean and now Turks/German offering)..don't see how the Russian offer can be accepted.
Well, we will see how it ends. The strongest point from the Type 636 is that it can fire 3M54 anti-ship, anti-submarine and land targets missiles. The Scorpenes can only fire the SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, and from which i understand, the Type 214 is "UGM-84 capable".
But i think the prize and amount of ToT has a higher priority than the capabilities in this acquisition.

Btw, any news about the livery of the first of three Type 209 ordered? The first one should be delivered this year, like the SIGMA 10514 frigates.
Also about the SIGMA 10514, very quiet the last period....
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
The first Sigma 10514 Light Frigates/Corvette KRI RE Martadinata already being handed over on 7th this month.
KRI RE Martadinata 331 Perkuat Armada TNI AL di Wilayah Timur | Nasional | Beritasatu.com

While the first DSME 209 will arrived schedulled end of this month or next from DSME Korea. Already named KRI Nagapasa.

The question now is the follow on project of next PKR or DSME 209. Whether PAL will continoue with DSME on Sigma project 10514 or enlarge version (Damen do bring enlarge model of Sigma 11415 to Indodefence last year)..still not set in contract yet.

Also what is the next submarine project that come out from PAL, as they already finishing their Submarine yard..whether still another DSME 209 design..or another design like 214 or Scorpene..it's not set in any contract yet.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing Ananda!

"Badan kapal utama memakan biaya hingga US$ 220 juta, sedangkan perlengkapan senilai US$ 110 juta sehingga secara keseluruhan US$ 330 juta."
Well...I really hope it is delivered completely with all sensor and weapon systems, until now i never see an image with the Oerlikon Millenium 35 mm CIWS installed.

The first SIGMA 10514 fregat, KRI RE Martadinata 331, was handed over to TNI-AL on 7 April, but this important event was not really exposed in the Indonesian media....

I also found this, http://products.damen.com/en/ranges...ma-class-frigate-10514-raden-eddy-martadinata , but Damen/Koninklijke Schelde doesn't give much information.

I also can not find any information about the SIGMA 11415 design....
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Sorry, it should be Sigma 11516, got this drawing from Damen news sites, when they bring the model to last year Indodefence. But sorry can't attach it, since it's larger then the forum regulations on attachements.

Basically it's enlarge version of 10514, from the drawing seems have provision for 8 Mk 41 VLS..but then again it's my interpretation based on the drawing. Got provision for 2 RHIB davit in slipway models in stern (kind of PALFINGER Marine models)..at least the model in Indodefence shown that..
Well asside frm that..it's similar in appearences to 10514.

There are talks that Damen bring the design cause for 2nd batch PKR, TNI-AL wants larger design.again it's just talk, since the 2nd batch PKR contract still not have any definitive info when to be signed..it should be this year..but you know how the tracked record on Jokowi's admin on closing procurement contract..
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing Ananda!

"Badan kapal utama memakan biaya hingga US$ 220 juta, sedangkan perlengkapan senilai US$ 110 juta sehingga secara keseluruhan US$ 330 juta."
Well...I really hope it is delivered completely with all sensor and weapon systems, until now i never see an image with the Oerlikon Millenium 35 mm CIWS installed.

The first SIGMA 10514 fregat, KRI RE Martadinata 331, was handed over to TNI-AL on 7 April, but this important event was not really exposed in the Indonesian media....

I also found this, Sigma Class Frigate 10514 "Raden Eddy Martadinata" , but Damen/Koninklijke Schelde doesn't give much information.

I also can not find any information about the SIGMA 11415 design....
Looking to the images of https://jakartagreater.com/pkr-sigm...y-martadinata-331-di-pelabuhan-tanjung-wangi/ and https://jakartagreater.com/menteri-pertahanan-resmikan-pkr-kri-raden-eddy-martadinata-331/ , i think we can come to conclusion that, although one fregat costs us $330.000.000, it is an almost toothless warship. No Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS installed, no MM40 Mk3 launchers and maybe also no MICAs.... I dont understand why we have the habit to build/order new warships only armed with guns and thus almost worthless on the modern battlefield.

This is about KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332: https://jakartagreater.com/penampilan-terkini-kri-i-gusti-ngurah-rai-332/ .....and maybe this will also become a defenceless $330.000.000 only good enough for Hari ABRI millitary parades.

But now something else.
I didn't know that TNI-AL has ordered a third LPD from PAL.
https://jakartagreater.com/pt-pal-kerjakan-lpd-ke-3-tni-angkatan-laut/#comment-1375255
The remarkable thing is that it looks similar to the Korean-made LPDs and that it will have a length of 124 meters, 1 meter longer than the Korean-made (KRI Makassar 590 + KRI Surabaya 591) and 1 meter shorter than the Indonesian-made ones (KRI Banjarmasin 592 + KRI Banda Aceh 593). And ofcourse i expect that it will be armed with an old second hand manually operated Bofors 40 mm gun.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I don't know where you got that USD 300 Mio figure as base model cost. As far as I know the base model cost is USD 220 Mio..and the overall package USD 300 Mio++ including Exocet SSM, Mica VL, Sylver VLS (either A35 or A43), and Rheinmettal Oerlikon Millenium CIWS.

The initial contract of USD 220 Mio is only for base model and 76mm Oto Melara gun, and sensors. Additional seperated contract will be for those other weapon system, which is why the hand over is not with those weapons systems asside the 76mm gun. Still is not something new, the Indonesian procurement has many contracts where weapons will be procured on next seperate contracts when budget already provided. Indonesian procurement used to get platform with minimal weapons first, then other contracts followed for the rest weapons-system packages.

As for the new LPD, off course it's followed Balikpapan class configuration, however looking the specs especially troops carrying capacity, I do believe it's more following Philipines SSV, that being builded by PAL. There are a lot off weapons system that being taken from decomissioning ships,and 40mm bofors are quite abundance...so it's no surprises many of it will come down to secondary layer ships like the LPD or the LST. Afterall with budget procurement is more on platform oriented first, then you can be sure they will recycle as much as weapon system that still possible..;)

Speaking of LST, it's confirmed that TNI-AL will get 7 of Bintuni LST as replacement of old ex WW2 US made LST that already decom.

Indonesia to receive three new 120 m LSTs by 2018 | IHS Jane's 360

Privately Owned DRU shipyard previously got contract for 2 LST while State Owned Kodja Bahari shipyard got the other 2 LST contract. Thus made 4 LST Bintuni class. Seems DRU shown more reliable delivery, thus the next batch contract of 3 LST being given all to DRU Shipyard.

Those Bintuni class LST will complement 6 South Korean made Tacoma class LST, and 12 ex East German Frosch. Frm what I heard, only 8-10 Frosch and 5 Tacoma LST that still operational. Thus some speculation come out that more Banjarmasin type LPD or Bintuni class LST will be further build, to take over Frosch capacity, since it's projected those ex East German LST won't last much longger, which then will be follow by those South Korean build LST. All of those build in the 80's even mid 70's for some East German Frosch. Thus I believe more Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST type derivatives will come out in the future, if TNI-AL want to keep maintain it's quite substantial Amphibious capacities.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
With Indonesia's geography I expect that quite a lot of amphibious shipping is needed to support the army, & I'm sure it's very useful when there's a natural disaster. It's logical for Indonesia to have plenty of amphibious ships.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Yes, at the peak of capacity, TNI-AL have 6 ex US WW2 LST, 6 South Korean build Tacoma LST, and 12 ex East German LST. That's 24 LST, conducting mostly military sea lift/logistics operations within Archipelago.

Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST is bigger than those Old LST, however to maintain the capacity of those 24 LST, I believe based on capacity of Banjarmasin LPD and Bintuni LST, they have to get at least 6 Banjarmasin LPD and 12 Bintuni LST, to completely replace capacity of 24 old LST. So, with Tacoma and Frosch LST need to be replaced all within 8-10 years, more of LPD and LST need to be churn out by local shipyards. PAL do have 190m LHD design, but I believe it's need to be revised and perfected more, before can be attractive for TNI-AL.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Turkish, German firms eye Indonesian sub contract

Turkish Golcuk shipyard and German TKMS has made arrangement in IDEF defense show to collaborate on offering Type 214 subs to Indonesia. This is the 2nd time they collaborate for Indonesian Sub deal. Previously they are defeted by South Korea DSME.

Seems TKMS quite confident on this, since frm what I gather DSME eventough also build type 214, but their license frm TKMS prohibited them to sell it to other country..while on type 209 Chang Bo Go class, they already made substantial modification which entitle them to put the design as DSME 209, thus able to offered it export market on their own.
I might be wrong on type 214, on whether DSME license for 214 also enable them to sell to overseas market..thus compete with TKMS it self, as original license holder.

Anyway, all this is for potential 2nd batch submarine as follow on 1st batch of 3 DSME 209. So far the candidate are French Scorpene 2000 or 1000, Type 214, and another batch of DSME 209. Saab also been reported to try to enter with derivatives of Gotland design.
All of the candidate must ensure that majority of submarine they offered will be build in PAL new submarine facility in Surabaya.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
IDEF 2017: STM & TKMS Signed LOI on Type 214 Submarines for Indonesian Navy

Additional info on Turkish STM/Golcuk Shipyard and German TKMS team up for Indonesian Navy 2nd batch Submarine contracts. As mentioned on previous post, besides STM-TKMS, French DCNS and South Korean DSME is also serious contender with potential Sweden SAAB.

However the article seems confirm what I heard as rumours before that the 2nd batch's just like 1st batch consist 3 Submarine. Currently the TNI-AL original Type 209 frm the 80's planned to be phased out by 2020+. This seems will be in line with the 2nd batch Subs which if on schedullewill be available on 2020+. This with the firm contract for 2nd batch need to signed this year or next at the latest.

If this on schedulle then by 2024, TNI-AL will have 6 Subs, consist of 3 DSME 209 frm 1st Batch, and 3 Subs frm 2nd Batch. Officially Mindef and TNI-AL talked 12 Subs by 2024, but unless they planned to get Subs frm other supplier that not partner with PAL (thus not build it locally), I don't see how they can get more than 6 Subs. Sourcing Subs without PAL participation will not be politically good move, considering the administration already spend substantial Investment for PAL Submarine facility.
Thus with the next TNI-AL Subs need to build locally and with PAL capacity, they at best by 2024 only can produce 2-3 Subs at max.

So if the planned for 12 Subs still on table, then it's at best can only be achieved by 2030+.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
1st of Nagapasa class delivered.

https://m.detik.com/news/berita/3582815/menhan-resmikan-kri-nagapasa-403-jadi-kapal-perang-indonesia

South Korean Firm Delivers Attack Submarine to Indonesia | World Affairs Journal

After around 2 years trials in South Korean water by contractor DSME and familiarisation with it's Indonesian crew, the first Nagapasa class (DSME 209 1400) submarine being delivered to Indonesian Navy.

It's plan by end of August or early Sept the new Submarine will be inducted officialy to TNI-AL service.
The 2nd of the class KRI Trisula 404 is expected to be delivered around Q4 this year. While the 3rd KRI Nagarangsang 405, will have final assembly in PAL facility. Sechedulled to be launched in 2018, but considering the delay on PAL side, I guess 2019 is more realistic.

http://www.janes.com/article/72839/...d-type-209-1400-submarine-in-central-sulawesi

Add:
This article frm Jane's confirming local media before that stated TNI AL plan to put newly constructed submarine based in Palu Central Sulawesi (Celebes island) as home port for some of new submarine. This made TNI AL can now based their submarines to 2 home based in Surabaya and Palu.

This shown TNI AL assertiveness to improve ASW capabilities in Eastern Islands.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia to acquire acoustic underwater monitors with eye on possible foreign submarine incursions | Jane's 360

Frm Jane's..

This article seems related to article in local media few days ago on the plan to installed fixed underwater listening device, similar to SOSUS facilities used by western navy in the cold war era.

Awasi Kapal Selam Asing, Pemerintah Pasang Instalasi Sonar Bawah Laut - Katadata News

The local media stated TNI AL sources that saying the devices will be sources frm local industries. However not saying frm where, thus being speculated a local company already in technical cooperation with foreign firm in using proven VLF tech in developing this local SOSUS installation.

First trial will be on Sunda Strait, and then plan to be installed in several straits throughout archipelago that being used as international shipping line under ALKI jurisdiction.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
https://m.detik.com/news/berita/3582815/menhan-resmikan-kri-nagapasa-403-jadi-kapal-perang-indonesia

South Korean Firm Delivers Attack Submarine to Indonesia | World Affairs Journal

After around 2 years trials in South Korean water by contractor DSME and familiarisation with it's Indonesian crew, the first Nagapasa class (DSME 209 1400) submarine being delivered to Indonesian Navy.

It's plan by end of August or early Sept the new Submarine will be inducted officialy to TNI-AL service.
The 2nd of the class KRI Trisula 404 is expected to be delivered around Q4 this year. While the 3rd KRI Nagarangsang 405, will have final assembly in PAL facility. Sechedulled to be launched in 2018, but considering the delay on PAL side, I guess 2019 is more realistic.

Indonesia to homeport newly commissioned Type 209/1400 submarine in Central Sulawesi | Jane's 360

Add:
This article frm Jane's confirming local media before that stated TNI AL plan to put newly constructed submarine based in Palu Central Sulawesi (Celebes island) as home port for some of new submarine. This made TNI AL can now based their submarines to 2 home based in Surabaya and Palu.

This shown TNI AL assertiveness to improve ASW capabilities in Eastern Islands.
Thank you for sharing Ananda!
Here some good quality shots of KRI Nagapasa 403 in Korea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1eqxe4yuNQ
And yes, it looks much better and smoother than our old Type209/1300 boats...
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Defence Technology Review : DTR JUNE 2017, Page 1

Frm defence technology review. If what DTR sources is right, then the order for 4 Rheinmettal 35 mm Millenium Gun CIWS seems confirm local forumers speculation that the 2nd batch of 2 PKR 10514 already got approval to continue. Since one PKR 10514 only have one room for CIWS gun which in B gun possition.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Good news for the TNI-AL if they do get a couple more, they look to be good ships; but is it possible the guns are going to be fitted to something else?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Good news for the TNI-AL if they do get a couple more, they look to be good ships; but is it possible the guns are going to be fitted to something else?
If I read it right on that DTR article, the order comes frm Damen to Rheinmettal in behalve of PKR project. Thus the gun should only be used in PKR project as Damen with PAL is lead contractors for PKR project.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
https://youtu.be/DhRvwHMK4y4

Video on you tube on the arival of KRI Nagapasa, the first of 3 DSME 209 1400 Submarine. The journey take 15 days frm DSME facility in South Korea. The 2nd schedulle to be handed over to TNI AL by DSME as contractor next year. It's reported that PAL already working on assamble project for the 3rd Sub in their new submarine facility under supervision of DSME. The assemble work schedulle to ve completed in next year, with handing over delivery to TNI AL in 2020.

Mindef already approved on choosing Italian Black Shark heavy torpedo as this class (compared to German SUT torpedo in previous 209 Cakra class). This 209 class have capabilities for Sub SSM, but no choices being taken yet.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
PAL upbeat about completion of third sub - Wed, August 30 2017 - The Jakarta Post

https://www.pressreader.com/indonesia/the-jakarta-post/20170830/281509341320905

Article from Jakarta Post. However since the complete Article in Jakarta Post is restricted to online subscriber, I also put pressreader online which provide complete article.

Basically, the article told about PT. PAL progress on assembled 3rd DSME 209-1400 class which now being called Nagapasa Class (due to some differences to ROK Chanbogo class which it derived).

My focus on one paragraph which PAL claim they are using the process in assembling the 3rd Nagapasa class as preparation for the 4th, 5th, and 6th Submarines.

This seems indicating the 2nd batch of 3 subs will be using same design with Nagapasa class. Which is logical considering the level of technology that need to prepare will be considerable, if they choose to build another design.

Nagapasa it self, eventough in 209 frame, bur reportedly uses many tech that also being used in 214.

Still with they are also talking with SAAB, DCNS, Turkish Golcuk (which collaborate with TKMS), potential other design for 4th - 6th subs still there. However if they aimed on timing and cost effectiveness, they shouls stay with DSME 209-1400/Nagapasa design.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Batch 3 LPD

Indonesian Navy outlines specifications for seventh LPD | Jane's 360

This talk on 7th LPD, seems coincide with previous rumours that the 6th LPD now being build in PAL will be the last 2nd batch Makasar class LPD family. The first batch is the 3 LPD (including one that converted to Hospital ships) build in South Korea by Daesun. The 2nd batch in 3 LPD build un PAL under slightly modified design (including the 6th one still under construction), known as Banjarmasin class. Philipine Navy multipurpose vessels follow this batch specification with slight differentiate

Thus this 7th LPD rumoured to be part of 3rd batch, which PAL says going to ve more complex and more capable. The price tag itself seems shown close to twice price of Banjarmasin class.
 
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