Indonesia: 'green water navy'

deadlast

Member
Project 133,1 Parchim-class corvette KRI Sultan Thaha Syaifuddin 376 keeping an eye on three chinese naval vessels in the North Natuna Sea.

Fun fact: this ship is the only Indonesian Navy ship with the chinese Type 730 CIWS on board.

Correction, there are actually two Parchim-class that were fitted with Chinese Type-730B CIWS. KRI Sultan Thaha Syaufuddin 376 were the first to get one and later they also fitted another one on KRI Silas Papare 386.

https://kanalinspirasi.com/kri-sre-386-perkuat-patroli-di-perairan-aceh/
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Correction, there are actually two Parchim-class that were fitted with Chinese Type-730B CIWS. KRI Sultan Thaha Syaufuddin 376 were the first to get one and later they also fitted another one on KRI Silas Papare 386.

https://kanalinspirasi.com/kri-sre-386-perkuat-patroli-di-perairan-aceh/
Thank you very much for the correction! I didn't know this.


And now a negotiations 'update'.

So after 5 years, nothing special happened.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Well, Japan PM clearly put in media that agreement related to Defense co-op and security is on top of the Agenda on 2+2 ministerial meeting today in Tokyo. So far the talk on Japan originate Defense Equipment is for 30 FFM.

As I have put before, there're two things that why I put my bet on 30FFM compare to other Frigate design that Jane's talk as candidate for Indonesian Frigates program:
  1. Financing; Indonesia budget is under pressure due to COVID situation. There're immediate need to more Fiscal incentives to support economics activities. Thus the softest financing term for any Defense will be the preference to pass Bapenas and Finance Ministry
  2. Yards Productivity; TNI-AL need to get new Frigates ASAP considering the condition on their main Frigate, the old Van Speijk. The plan for Damen 10514 as the replacement stop at two, and they need 4 due to delay on the program. Compared to Euro yards, Japanese ones can provide 4 new Frigates much sooner.
Off course in Indonesian Defense procurement process, as I have put from time to time, nothing is certain until the assets being paid, constructed and deliver. However I do get sense with this 2+2 meeting as follow up of long discussion with Japan and high level meeting between Jokowi and Suga, the momentum with Japan seems picking up.

Considering Japan always come into packages deals, and how Japan already knows well on how to close the deal with Indonesian for more than 50 years. Eventough they're new comers on defense procurement projects, but again once they're set their mind on a project, they'll be force to be reckoned for the other competitors.
 

Arji

Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Japan still have a significant backlog of the 30FFM for the JMSDF's own order?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Yes It is, they still need to build 20 from 22 of JMSDF order. Existing back log also happen in French, Italian or other Euro yards. However Japan's Yard productivity is higher compared to Euro ones. We can see how fast they're able to launch the first two of 30DDX (30FFM JMSDF version).

So, whether we order from Euro or Japan yards, there will be back log. It's just in term of productivity and capacity of Japanese yards is bigger. Euro yards can't compete on the productivity with either Japanese, South Korean and Chinese yards.

As Japan try hard to gain foot hold on International Defense market, I do sense they can squeeze in Indonesian order toward their own production line. It's not uncommon, French and Italian do the similar things.

For me, those two combination (from my previous post) that in my opinion will put Japan in the advantage (if we looking purely on technical matter). However as I have put in my post on other Indonesian thread, technical matter is not the only factor when dealing with Indonesian bureaucracy. There're also Political and "Projects" factor. However I do sense Japanese already known Indonesia Bureaucracy too well on handling the other non Technical issue. Well will see how this's going to develop.
 
Last edited:

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Japan still have a significant backlog of the 30FFM for the JMSDF's own order?
They have a requirement for 22 by 2032, they may be prepared to give up spots for a export order or they may increase production tempo, remembering that if the 30FFM is selected they will have 3-5 years before starting on the Indonesian order.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
One example that I can see as comparison on how China can squeeze Pakistan Frigates order toward their own Type 054A. They have more back logs on that Frigates compared to Japan 30FFM. On term of productivity, South Korean yards can be at par with Japanese, while China yards already surpassed both of them.

However since 30FFM doesn't compete with either ROK or China on Indonesian Frigates projects, then they don't face any competition that can match their Productivity speed.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Looks like Terma strengthen its position on the Indonesian market. Maybe they will become the second main-supplier besides Hollandse Signaalapparaten for the Indonesian Navy.

|" In 2019, Terma was awarded a contract for the supply of complete C-Series Combat suite for four 60-meter Fast Attack Crafts (KCR-60). Most recently, the SCANTER radars have been selected to equip non-combatant vessels such as the Hospital Assistance Ships (BRS). "|

Nice to know that the two new hospital ships are equipped with the advanced Terma Scanter radars, i expected they will only get cheap standard navigation radars.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Jane's give bit more elaboration that altough no specific assets being mention in the sign agreement yet, however the agreement give more emphasis on supporting Indonesia Maritime needs.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I put this 2018 Video when MHI introduce their 30DX (before call it now 30FFM). It's shown from begining this design take modular concept. Thus in theory they can have different modules in Sensors, Weapons and Propulsions. There's also different video from Naval News in 2019 Pacific Defense in Sydney, where MHI shown how the design can be enlarge to Destroyer size or become more compact on OPV/Corvette size.

This shown MHI was prepraring the design for export market (instead previous Japan naval design that mostly only prepared for JMSDF). Thus in theory MHI can integrate different modules as customers wants.

It's too soon to guess what kind of 30FFM systems being offer. However considering JMSDF also in process of working on their order lines, building something that closer to JMSDF design will be more efficient for Work Flow and Logistics. Just as I put on previous post above, Pakistan Frigate order is close to PLAN own Type 054A, to speed up process.

Still it does not mean MHI can't provide different modules to each customers need. Their yards are effective enough to do that.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Suppose we did take the 30FFM, what kind of system do you think we'll put on the ship? Cause I doubt we'll be using Harpoons anytime soon.
1. For ease of integration, MHI will likely propose a Japanese anti-ship missile, like the Type 12 or Type 17 SSM manufactured by the same Japanese company. I speculate that the Japanese Minister of Defence Nobuo Kishi will propose some form of defence industrial cooperation with Indonesia as an additional sweetener to ensure the export of this older Japanese anti-ship missile technology, a few years after the 30FFM contract is signed with Indonesia; if Japan wins this contract.

2. To retain commonality with existing TNI AL inventory, a MICA NG and Aster 15 combination is possible (if specified by the TNI AL and will lead to delays due to the need for testing); but I strongly suspect the Japanese would be more keen to recommend the ESSM and a SM-2 variant (like Block IIIB) combination; as that is at least more compatible with the Mitsubishi Electric OPY-2 multifuction radar and other sensors (on the 30FFM) than European missile offerings. The 30FFM is equipped with Mk.45 mod.4 5-inch gun and is also given a minesweeping/mine-laying capability. Therefore, it can be inferred that the 30FFM is also useful for island defense. The Mk.45 is ideal for attacking enemies that have landed. Also, in order to land friendly troops, it is necessary to sweep the mines laid by the enemy.

3. As I said before in another thread at post #25, nothing the country builds will be survivable or sustainable without:

(i) allied air support by partners like the RAAF, the JADF, JMSDF and the Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU), as China and Vietnam, as competitors in the South China Sea, are keen to develop their navies at a faster rate than the TNI AL;​

(ii) the provision of ISR from MPAs flown by TNI AU, neutrals like Singapore or friendlies like Australia and Japan, supplemented by TNI AL submarines as forward sensors; and​

(iii) the TNI AL’s vessels needing to operate in task groups with other capable navies like the RAN and the JMSDF, who will go into harm’s way with the TNI AL.​

3. On a 365 day basis, the TNI AL’s frigates and submarines must have the ability to secure Indonesia’s littorals, dispute them, or just as importantly exercise in them in the face of a capable competitor who will contest them —as a shared concern for the RSN. Unlike the RSN, this is capability that the TNI AL does not have. And because the TNI AL is unable to do so, I am waiting for the day when you start to see the Chinese Coast Guard regularly ram Indonesian Navy and law enforcement ships during a time of tension. A TNI AL vessel was rammed by the Vietnamese Coast Guard on 30 April 2019 — that is why Singapore’s 8 Littoral Mission Vessels are fitted for ramming, even if our role is to behave as a neutral in the South China Sea. Let us see how well designed the TNI AL ships are after they are rammed a couple of times by Chinese ships.

4. TNI AL better start thinking clearly about who is a neutral, who is a friendly and who can be an ally at a time of crisis and start building bridges with other more capable navies, accordingly. I wish the TNI AL good luck in sorting out its priorities. The 4 to 9 May 2018, Exercise Komodo held in the waters near Lombok Island, Indonesia is an important step forward for TNI AL in its bridge building efforts.

5. Indonesia’s SIGMA 10514 are cute little ships that I like. The TNI AL just needs 8 to 12 of them by 2045 (instead of 2). The PLA(N) will be able to track TNI AL from space, as they do with American carrier groups — with multiple daily updates of more than 4 times a day. The PLA(N) will get updated on the location of every TNI AL ship on at least a daily basis. The ability of capable network centric navies like the USN, JMSDF, and PLA(N) to track ships from space is a key reason why Singapore gave up on playing hide and seek with our missile gun boats. The new FFG(X) program of the USN is a reflection of American belief that you need a forward screen for a task group.

6. Singapore’s Business Times newspaper reported that Indonesia intends to initially purchase four 30FFM frigates as part of its plan to modernize the country’s military, adding that the agreement comes after a meeting between Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga and Indonesian President Joko Widodo in Oct 2020. The FFM30 is a good platform, if chosen — the TNI AL will need 8 of them by 2035 — to maintain a minimum capability to conduct over the horizon surface warfare with its organic air assets (like ship borne UAVs or helicopters), as a TNI AL task group command vessel, 365 days a year. TNI AL ships need to train in coalition task groups with more capable ships from the JMSDF operating over the horizon or the TNI AL frigates are dead ducks 15 mins after shooting starts.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

The Bunker Group
SIGMA 10514 are cute little ships that I like. The TNI AL just needs 8 to 12 of them by 2045 (instead of 2). The PLA(N) will be able to track TNI AL from space, as they do with American carrier groups — with multiple daily updates of more than 4 times a day. The PLA(N) will get updated on the location of every TNI AL ship on at least a daily basis. The ability of capable network centric navies like the USN, JMSDF, and PLA(N) to track ships from space is a key reason why Singapore gave up on playing hide and seek with our missile gun boats.
The debate on MinDef with PKR SIGMA 10514 is something in my opinion already more political driven then real assesment on what TNI-AL needs. The idea (that circulate in Indonesian media) from first two SIGMA project PAL has not much workshare is missleading. Just like DSME 209 workshare it should be progressing toward more domestication workshare as learning curve move along on sequence of Production.

If following the initial plan, by now PAL should be working on #5 & 6 PKR in the yard, while #3 & 4 already in the process of trials or at least finishing instalation. Politics take over, as we have seen on long term defense projects originating from SBY era like KFX/IFX and DSME 209. Again the problem for TNI that on doing long term planning, is facing with Political Establishment that looking more on short term political gain.

I'm watching on the progress of SCYTALYS project for TNI defense networks. This will be the real attempt for TNI in building integrated network environment throughout 3 services even there's plan on adding Bakamla (Coast Guard). If they manage to do this, it will be nexus on network capabilities that can be and has to be use as base for next stage development (regardles who will be in power on next administration).

I do understand somewhat the need for Fast Missile Boats or Patrols ships to give local shiyards projects and evolving their capabilities on defense projects. However the thinking on future postures that still relied on using point defense with Fast Missile Boats seems still hold ground in TNI-AL thinking. Thus I do hope their network environment building can improve the limitation on FMB usage in modern warfare.
 
Last edited:

Arji

Active Member
I'm watching on the progress of SCYTALYS project for TNI defense networks. This will be the real attempt for TNI in building integrated network environment throughout 3 services even there's plan on adding Bakamla (Coast Guard). If they manage to do this, it will be nexus on network capabilities that can be and has to be use as base for next stage development (regardles who will be in power on next administration).
According to their site, the project should be done in more or less 3 years, which is within the term of the current administration. Here's hoping that there is minimal political interference (or stuff going wrong in general) in realizing this project, as we are severely behind in this aspect of warfare, even years ago.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Here's hoping that there is minimal political interference (or stuff going wrong in general) in realizing this project, as we are severely behind in this aspect of warfare, even years ago.
That's the problem for TNI, the first term of this administration practically halt the momentum for TNI modernisation. Can't be help due to Political choice we have incompetence Defense Minister that wasting time on poorly prepared planning, resulted on back forth on the planning between ministries and Bapenas.

Thus this term practically MinDef has to settle two terms work load. I just hope this's going to be more straight forward projects planning. Thus it already set on multiyears fixed projects, which can't be hold by whoever come to power on next administration.

This USD 21 bio international procurement budget, I don't believe it's only for TNI-AU. I suspect 40% for TNI-AU, 40% for TNI-AL, and 20% for TNI-AD.
I put it few months ago on Indonesian Air Force thread. Base on the video capture that being put by Kris FB (link provided in that thread), seems present term MinDef going to divide the Foreign Financing thus International Procurement budget on roughly 40:40:20 as I've predicted.

That's the move in right direction, as threat scenario shown much modernisation needed in AF and Navy. Thus it's left how the plan implementation need to put in motion soon. This time around it's facing problematic economics condition (Domestic and Global) due to COVID. There's enough voices from Economist that wants to cut that plan USD 21 Bio foreign financing for Defense. There're those that still doesn't see the need of defense modernisation. I put modernisation not build up, as with that kind of budget only replacement modernisation and not build up that can be done.

I'm not Defense professional, but I probably come from some in my Industry that see Geopolitical changes will be much related to our own economics stability. Like it or not, Geopolitical changes in this region force Nations to modernize their Defense to ensure stability on International interaction. This why I spend some of my time in this forum, try to learn Defense trend and development.

Sometimes I see some of my class mates/seniors in my Allmamater or my colleagues in Financial Industry, didn't really see the need of strong Defense related with maintaining Indonesia credentials in Geopolitical stability. Many of them more see the need for Economics and Industrial development in the expense on Defense. They just don't see it's interact and interchangeable.

Perhaps their perspective clouded with the results of their experience with Military during Soeharto era. Making them not trusting Military establishment. It's not unreasonable, but for me it doesn't justified on halting TNI modernisation and organisational development.
 
Last edited:

ChestnutTree

Active Member
I assume that the TNI-AL would want to keep a consistent stock of AShM's by standardizing with the Exocet? Keeping in mind that Like Airbus and LM, Thales (and to a extent MBDA) has a strong lobby here in Indonesia, so I would expect the two French firms would like a slice of the defense budget pie regardless who wins the tender.

Going back to what I posted months ago, I am quite excited to see what MHI has to offer, and whether or not they would bring in European firms as a partner. To my understanding, a 30FFM hull with European subsystems would be the strongest contender in terms of financing, standardization, and future growth/upgrades.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I assume that the TNI-AL would want to keep a consistent stock of AShM's by standardizing with the Exocet? Keeping in mind that Like Airbus and LM, Thales (and to a extent MBDA) has a strong lobby here in Indonesia, so I would expect the two French firms would like a slice of the defense budget pie regardless who wins the tender.

Going back to what I posted months ago, I am quite excited to see what MHI has to offer, and whether or not they would bring in European firms as a partner. To my understanding, a 30FFM hull with European subsystems would be the strongest contender in terms of financing, standardization, and future growth/upgrades.
The Type-12 anti-ship missile has a very advanced radar-seeker, and also slightly more range (200 km instead of 180 km), equipping the 30FFM with it, will make production easier and cheaper than integrating the MM40 Block 3 with the 30FFM. On the other hand the Type-12 may be more expensive a piece, than a MM40. It is unclear for me how compatible the Type-12 is with other NATO-systems like the P-8, maybe only with the Japanese own P-1, but i dont know that.

But don't worry about that, maybe in the end only some FFBNW vessels will be ordered, armed with only machineguns...
 

ChestnutTree

Active Member
I'm more or less trying to be realistic. As I understand it, it's an open secret that Thales has a very strong lobbying power here considering how many of their products are in use across the Tri-service over the past 10 years. And considering the Navy seems to standardizing onto the Exocet, I would not be surprised if the Navy would take the delays just to use Thales subsystems.

Also, CMIIW but wouldn't the delay be minimal if the TNI-AL buys the weapons and electronics packages from MBDA and Thales since their CMS, radar, and ECM systems have already been used in conjunction on other vessels? I assumed the 30FFM being a module based design allows for an open architecture approach when it comes to implementing custom orders?
 
Top