Indonesia: 'green water navy'

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Under current submarine building facility of PT PAL, they can make at least two submarines simultaneously. So after they master complete submarine building capability inshaAllah, they should build every 2 submarines simultaneously. Only building one submarine in one time will not meet our future submarines needs. 10 years to build three submarines from signing the contract until they are all given to navy is too long, although there is some years delay (1-2 years) if I am not mistaken due to the government delay in disbursing money to make the submarine building facility in PT PAL.
And what do you base this flight of fantasy on? Look at the Australian Attack Class submarine build program. They aren't building two subs together. It's one at a time. IIRC the drumbeat is one sub every two years. The first sub of each design is always the hardest and takes the longest. You don't know what you are talking about.

You have been warned about your posting behaviour before. Consider this a final warning. Unless there is a marked improvement in your posting behaviour and adherence to Forum Rules, your future on here will be very short.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Project 133,1 Parchim-class corvette KRI Sultan Thaha Syaifuddin 376 keeping an eye on three chinese naval vessels in the North Natuna Sea.

Fun fact: this ship is the only Indonesian Navy ship with the chinese Type 730 CIWS on board.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Prabowo's will be in Tokyo with Foreign Minister Retno. Is it only courtesy or sign of 30 FFM getting serious ?


While today he's in London to meet his counterpart there. Is it sign of agreement with Babcock ?

Or is it another twist of Political road show just to see he's working on something for Indonesian defense ;)

Anyway today I'm in the mood like many Indonesian media and online sites that continue gossiping the prospect of Indonesian Defense projects based on Prabowo's road show..:p
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Prabowo's will be in Tokyo with Foreign Minister Retno. Is it only courtesy or sign of 30 FFM getting serious ?


While today he's in London to meet his counterpart there. Is it sign of agreement with Babcock ?

Or is it another twist of Political road show just to see he's working on something for Indonesian defense ;)

Anyway today I'm in the mood like many Indonesian media and online sites that continue gossiping the prospect of Indonesian Defense projects based on Prabowo's road show..:p
I wonder when they will travel to Italy, the Netherlands and Denmark...and maybe after that to South-Korea and Germany for the submarines.

So cool, travelling the world for free as a VIP.
They have the time until 2024.
 

Arji

Active Member
I wonder when they will travel to Italy, the Netherlands and Denmark...and maybe after that to South-Korea and Germany for the submarines.

So cool, travelling the world for free as a VIP.
They have the time until 2024.
What will he do in Italy? for FREMM?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What will he do in Italy? for FREMM?
Yes they have offered the FREMM.
Google algorithm just link me to this:


So according to Jane's sources, the Frigates option in the final stages:

1. Babcock base Type 31, this's been circulate on local forums and media. Odense working out with Babcock to offer Type 31 base. It could be have electronics and weapons more in line with Iver, but Babcock will be the development Partner.

2. Damen will offer modified Sigma, probably bigger then 10514 in previous two PKR. Since MinDef wants bigger version.

3. Mitsui 30FFM,

4. Fincantieri FREMM

Will see how this's going to develop. It could be only one type to be choose, but it also can be two type combination. This as 'rumours' circulate that the next Frigates program will not only involved PAL, but also Private Shipyards in Batam.
Fincantieri did even give a nice scale model as promotion.
It's complicated cause why simplified if can be made complicated (101 in Indonesian Bureaucracy).

Anyway:

From Instagram of head MinDef Directorate Defense Potential (Ditjen Pothan). This seems taken in Abu Dhabi Defense exhibition. Now can anyone guess what Frigates the model represent?

This can explain why the process of new Frigates get complicated, eventough in paper the early choice of Iver Based ones already committed last year.

View attachment 48032
It is ofcourse not sure yet that a group of Indonesian officials will visit Italy soon, but looking to the past there is a big chance it will happen. Odense Steel Shipyard is visited at least twice...but it looks more like some officials just grabbed the chance to travel to Europe for free.
 
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Arji

Active Member
I read a tempo article that said Prabowo is in Russia now. It doesn't say anything specific regarding his reason, but I find it strange as AFAIK, CAATSA is still a thing. Then again, does CAATSA even apply to a vague notion of 'strengthening defense cooperation', or is it exclusively go after defense procurement?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Then again, does CAATSA even apply to a vague notion of 'strengthening defense cooperation', or is it exclusively go after defense procurement

Please look again on the explanation of CAATSA that OPSSG already kind enough to explain in Indonesia AF thread post #1900.

In nutshell if you value more your defense relationship with US rather then with Russia or other potential US adversary that already stipulate in the that particular Bill. Then you have to choose how to conduct your defense relationship with Russia not from your own interpretation but from US Interpretation.

That's why on that thread I also put, it's pointless to talk about what kind of defense relationship with Russia that can be considered not infringe CAATSA interpretation. You have to talk with US on their consideration and interpretation. After all it's their bill thus their Political circles and Law Makers that can decide how to interprete the implementation.

Again this's only if you decide your defense relationship with US is more Important than Russia. If you're decide on the other hand, then don't take notice on CAATSA.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Aspiring to become a tier 3 green water force — Part 1

...does CAATSA even apply to a vague notion of 'strengthening defense cooperation'...
1. Russia is a member of ADMM Plus and all ASEAN MEMBERS, Indonesia included can talk with the Russians as much as you want on defence cooperation and the conduct of joint bilateral or multilateral exercises, including signing new contracts and MOUs to maintain existing Russian aircraft or Russian IFVs like the BMP-3F in Indonesian service. Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs R. Clarke Cooper said: “The CAATSA sanctions are not designed to be punitive to a partner and ally that has got a sustainment issue or an operation or maintenance issue. We’re certainly not looking to disrupt that…” This American law means no Indonesian bank is willing to provide a letter of credit to facilitate a Russian cross border significant transaction caught by CAATSA.

2. If Prabowo wants to buy significant or new naval weapons from Russia (as per the topic in this thread), CAATSA applies, unless an American waiver is granted (see post #1900). This is a 2 Aug 2017 American law that is binding on US State Department and US DoD officials and they have no choice but to follow it.

3. Indonesian input is not formally sought in the application of American sanctions, as the TNI and the Indonesian defence ministry are well aware. Those who miscalculate like Turkey, get to find out how serious CAATSA is for US Congress. Turkey thought that as a NATO ally, they were immune to limited American sanctions, as they host a US forces in Incirlik Air Base that stores tactical nuclear weapons and were a partner in the JSF program (that they are now kicked out of).

4. Biden is keen to take a multilateral approach as he looks to enlist allies and partners in a united front of democracies to the authoritarian challenge of China. "The United States won't force our allies into an 'us-or-them' choice with China," Blinken said. Indonesians who do not think maintaining good relations with the Biden admin is essential, in the era of tensions with China (where it clashed with China over fishing rights around Natuna Islands) are idiots. I also note that Indonesia has been lobbying senior American officials to keep it on a list of countries that receive special trade terms under the Generalized System of Preferences (GSP), a facility that gives reduced tariffs to about US$2 billion of Indonesian exports.
(a) The US last extended Indonesia’s GSP status in early Nov 2020; any unwise Indonesia decision to violate CAATSA will ensure that future GSP status renewals will be much more difficult.​
(b) Turkey lost its GSP status in 2019, with the US government citing the country’s improved level of development.​
(c) Another beneficiary to lose its GSP status in 2019 was India due to the country not providing assurances to the US that it will provide equitable access to its large market.​

5. In the case of Turkey, their S400 purchase triggered the following sanctions under Section 235 of CAATSA, as implemented by Executive Order 13849 on 14 Dec 2020:

#1: a ban on US Export-Import Bank assistance for exports to SSB (Section 235(a)(1));​
#2: a prohibition on granting specific US export licenses and authorizations for any goods or technology transferred to SSB (Section 235(a)(2));​
#3: a prohibition on loans or credits by US financial institutions to SSB totaling more than US$10 million in any 12-month period (Section 235(a)(3));​
#4: a requirement for the US to oppose loans benefitting SSB by international financial institutions (Section 235(a)(4)); and​
imposition of full blocking sanctions and visa restrictions (which include sanctions #7, #8, #9, #11, and #12 of the sanctions listed above) on the following individuals:​
  • Dr. Ismail Demir, president of SSB;
  • Faruk Yigit, SSB’s vice president;
  • Serhat Gencoglu, Head of SSB’s Department of Air Defense and Space; and
  • Mustafa Alper Deniz, Program Manager for SSB’s Regional Air Defense Systems Directorate.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Aspiring to become a tier 3 green water force — Part 2

6. TNI AL, as a tier 5 green/brown water navy (aspiring to become a tier 3 green water force), has only 2 real choices that will give them technologically competitive vessels that meet the 2030s threat matrix with PLA(N) as a resident power in the South China Sea — logically, the minimum requirement should be met by the Mitsui 30FFM or Fincantieri FREMM. Any build plan needs 4 of the same class but given the TNI AL’s track record, that is very unlikely.

7. In Feb 2021, Chinese media said the PLA(N) destroyer Guiyang and frigate Zaozhuang, part of the 36th Escort Taskforce, participated in the joint maritime exercise with the Singapore Navy, as a tier 3 navy. The Singaporean ships include the Formidable-class stealth frigate, RSS Intrepid, and the Independence-class littoral mission vessel, RSS Sovereignty.

8. It’s only a matter of time before the PLA(N) becomes more aggressive in the South China Sea and enforces it’s own ADIZ, in a manner that threatens some ASEAN members; if ASEAN does not have a leader (namely, TNI AU and TNI AL) with proper air power and naval capabilities for coalition warfare in cooperation with the Singapore Navy (as a capable tier 3 green water force), then the South China Sea, will be a Chinese lake in the 2040s onwards.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Any build plan needs 4 of the same class but given the TNI AL’s track record, that is very unlikely.
Japan source in media talk the offer of 8 30FFM with 4 build in Japan's yard and 4 in Indonesian yards. This come after high level talk between Indonesian President and Japanese PM. Seems it's suggest MinDef knows how many Frigates they need to build, just to keep up minimal postures against potential PLA(N) aggressive build up in the front yard.

However how to achieve that, depends on how MinDef change the behavior planning. If they still work as before, then like you say, it will not happen. If they're still working at the same pace as before, TNI-AL will be lucky if they can get 4 Frigates as replacement of the rest of Old Van Speijk before this end of decade.

They need to change how the financing works, but also involvement of other Yards outside PAL. Let PAL working with this Iver based Frigates (as actually 2 of that should already plan and begin build from last term, but don't happen due incompetence last term MinDef).

I have more confidence with those yards in Batam productivity, compared to an SOE yard like PAL (let alone the other SOE yards). This came after talks with some colleagues that specializes in Ship Yards Financing.
Let MHI works with private yards in Batam using Japan Financing and work flow standard. That's what Japan offer in the program anyway. That's why MHI team also check those Batam's yards to assess their capabilities.

As mention before, next week Prabowo and Retno will talk with their Japanese counterparts in Tokyo. At the outset, two Minister getting pararell meeting shown more seriousness to get the deal done. Japan historically can provide the best financing term for Indonesia compared everyone else in the market. Just I post before, Bapenas and Ministry of Finance already advise MinDef to make deals on whoever can provide the best financing deals for each assets they will try to build and procured.

It's all back to Indonesian bureaucracy and Political circles, on whether they can change their working behavior. If they don't change, then by end of this decade TNI will be lucky only to gain replacement capabilities, let alone any progressive capabilities.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Possible uses of the Tank Boat by Lundin — Part 1

1. John Lundin’s idea to put a big gun on a boat for TNI AL is interesting; but may lack doctrinal support for the correct littoral employment tactics.
(a) I suspect PT Lundin's X18 Tank Boat does not look survivable against a conventional army as enemy.​
(b) In an amphibious landing, we usually only employ machine guns, as last ditch assault boat self defence, when such a boat approaches a beachhead — knowing that our UAVs will provide overwatch and with Apaches proving cover, should the landing go hot.​

2. For me, in island hopping fight against a minimally competent conventional enemy, I prefer the Patria Nemo Navy 120mm Naval Mortar System concept — which can hit by indirect fire, targets out of sight, between 7,200 m to 9,500 m. All the Patria Nemo boat needs is to launch an UAV to enable target acquisition.

3. If it is a fight against anything like a dispersed platoon of insurgents (armed with 12.7mm machine guns or ATGMS), I strongly suspect that such a gun boat will fail to achieve its desired effect — given that from a 3m high hill feature/slope, as a vantage point, an enemy can observe a tank boat 6.8km away.

4. A conventional enemy Spike LR platoon on shoreside will kill this tank boat in 15 mins; if this John Lundin designed tank boat is anything less up to 5km away. The issue is a hidden enemy targeting the tank boat as it gets close to shore and fires its gun. These John Lundin designed boats need smoke grenades, naval gunfire support and lots of air support to close into shore in an amphibious landing scenario.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Considering it's only have 600nm range with slow economics speed of 9kt, it's either being used for Marines beach head operation or Army riverine and coastal patrol. Aside from that, I'm also perplexed on what's the actual implementation on this 'tank boat' concepts. Seems the concept work as floating Armoured Vehicles/IFV.

If we see this couple years video from John Cockerill 3000 turret series, it's modular concept can be add with ATGM or perhaps later on with APS available in the market.

 

Arji

Active Member
Just uploaded by John Lundin himself...
I think this 30 mm + 12,7 mm turret fits this boat better than a 90 mm one.

According to mr Lundin the 63 meter long trimaran will be finished soon, but to me it looks more like the construction is on hold or is progressing very slowly.

Edit: the video seems to be not visible.
Here is John Lundins Facebook page.
Did we still fund the development of the Trimaran? If so, I can't help to think that it's a gigantic money sink given the delay, and for a product that may or may not be subpar? I don't see it being worth it.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Did we still fund the development of the Trimaran? If so, I can't help to think that it's a gigantic money sink given the delay, and for a product that may or may not be subpar? I don't see it being worth it.
TNI ordered the trimaran years ago and to the best of my knowledge, they paid what's in the contract. Since the vessel burned down, insurance is supposed to provide the money for its replacement. So TNI isn't paying anything extra. TNI may have to pay the final part of the contract once the trimaran is delivered (payment is usually split into several stages, with the final stage happening only after delivery and acceptance), but that's normal.

As far as I can tell no extra funding has been paid for the trimaran. This is very likely why progress for the replacement is very slow. It seems the insurance money is insufficient to replace the trimaran and TNI isn't paying any more money until the trimaran is delivered. Thus PT Lundin basically has to cover the shortage with their own money. That's not TNI's problem.
 

Arji

Active Member
TNI ordered the trimaran years ago and to the best of my knowledge, they paid what's in the contract. Since the vessel burned down, insurance is supposed to provide the money for its replacement. So TNI isn't paying anything extra. TNI may have to pay the final part of the contract once the trimaran is delivered (payment is usually split into several stages, with the final stage happening only after delivery and acceptance), but that's normal.

As far as I can tell no extra funding has been paid for the trimaran. This is very likely why progress for the replacement is very slow. It seems the insurance money is insufficient to replace the trimaran and TNI isn't paying any more money until the trimaran is delivered. Thus PT Lundin basically has to cover the shortage with their own money. That's not TNI's problem.
Ah, that's true. We just procured the thing, not developed it from scratch. Well, here's hoping the end product is worth the wait. Who knows, maybe the navy procured more. Kind of a shame if Lundin goes under because of this. We need more company competing in our defense industry.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Possible uses of the Tank Boat by Lundin — Part 2

Well, here's hoping the end product is worth the wait. Who knows, maybe the navy procured more.
5. The tank boat has a carrying capacity of 65 (with 5 crew), is capable of high speed sprint; making it an ideal infantry troop transport with strong self-defence capability in rebel contested river systems (or from jetty-to-jetty movement of troops and logistics), provided these rebel groups are poorly armed.

6. If the 30mm gunned tank boat is employed correctly by TNI AL, it would deter rebel groups from attacking TNI logistics shipments and troop movements at sea or up rivers. It currently only has limited ballistic protection (up to 7.62mm calibre), which makes it great for supply runs into contested river tributaries, where rebel groups are known to be infested. It can serve as an escort to other river boats.
Kind of a shame if Lundin goes under because of this. We need more company competing in our defense industry.
7. Agreed. At least they are trying something new and they need to develop an effective doctrine to employ these fibreglass tank boats, to give this innovation meaning.
 
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Arji

Active Member
5. The tank boat has a carrying capacity of 65 (with 5 crew), is capable of high speed sprint; making it an ideal infantry troop transport with strong self-defence capability in contested river systems (or from jetty-to-jetty movement of troops and logistics), provided these rebel groups are poorly armed.

6. If the 30mm gunned tank boat is employed correctly by TNI AL, it would deter rebel groups from attacking TNI logistics shipments and troop movements at sea or up rivers. It currently only has limited ballistic protection (up to 7.62mm calibre), which makes it great for supply runs into contested river tributaries, where rebel groups are known to be infested. It can serve as an escort to other river boats.
Sorry, I wasn't talking about the Tank Boat. I was referring to the Trimaran missile boat. I mean, likewise, I encourage the Navy (maybe Army or Marine is more appropriate) to purchase the tank boat only if they can find a place in their doctrine.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was referring to the Trimaran missile boat.
I see. The Sep 2012 fire on KRI Klewang-625 was a design and quality management issue as use of composites in naval vessels, like the TNI AL missile boat that caught fire, is well established and safe.

For the Singapore Navy and the Indian Navy, there is even a brochure on the Kockums/Saab komposit superstructures used in the 8 LMVs that are fabricated in Sweden and then shipped to Singapore. As David Boey suggests, the use of composite for the LMV superstructure and enclosed sensor mast points to weight saved for each warship. It also suggests that the LMVs will have a reduced radar signature compared to warships made of conventional materials such as aluminium or steel.
 
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