Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Off course it still could nothing will come out, after all PAL and Naval Group already sign MoU, but no project come out from that yet.
Still, I suspect the way Japan try to offer cooperation not on their existing platform or products. Japan knows their own JMSDF standard are high end products, that perhaps will be difficult to be absorb by most export market.

Thus seems they went to PAL, see what PAL capabilities and build from that. In such they're seems more offering on technology co-op. Just like the way they build cars in ASEAN market, see what market can absorb, what local market industry based capabilities, and work from that.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
If not mistaken, the medical facilities in KRI Teluk Ende is not build in permanently. It's more on mobile unit. While such as KRI Dr Soeharso build with more permanent Medical Units, even tough in the beginning it's also build as LPD.

If we see the superstructure of Dr Soeharso, it's different from other LPD in Makasar Class even the ones that build in ROK as Dr Soeharso did.
Seems this shown during construction this LPD than come to redesign phase to become more dedicated medical ships.
While Teluk Ended still from beginning retain capabilities of regular Tacoma Class LST.
What ever these vessels are called they are a welcome addition to the Indonesian fleet. All up the navy will eventually have some 7 LPD's of various designs with some having additional integrated medical facilities. A practical class of ship for a large nation of so many Islands.
Practical ships for a Navy on a budget.

Regards S
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
PT. PAL already prepared four design based on this LPD. Smaller ones with 100m, this 123m used by both Indonesia and Philippines Navy. 144m ones, and 163m that they are offer to Malaysia.

Quite interesting so far TNI-AL it self has not publicly order larger variance. PAL it self already said in Media that there will be next LPD project for TNI-AL after this hospital ship version. Will see if it's from the larger variance design.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What ever these vessels are called they are a welcome addition to the Indonesian fleet. All up the navy will eventually have some 7 LPD's of various designs with some having additional integrated medical facilities. A practical class of ship for a large nation of so many Islands.
Practical ships for a Navy on a budget.

Regards S
Some years ago it was announced that the ships after KRI Semarang 594 would be equipped with advanced CMS and heavier armed, but i can not believe that PAL will install these items in the hospital ships.
So i expect these plans are all canceled.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
On satellite photos (taken from the Lembaga Kajian Pertahanan Strategis page) of the Tanjung Priok shipyard of
PT Dok & Perkapalan Kodja Bahari, we can see KRI Teluk Kendari 518 (TKD) and KRI Teluk Kupang 519 (TKP) under construction.

KRI Teluk Kendari was already launched in 2014 and KRI Teluk Kupang in 2016.


I dont know why these ships are still not finished. Did the government not pay the bills, or are there problems with the construction at PT Dok & Perkapalan Kodja Bahari?

From which i understand these ships are from the second subclass, the 117 meter long variant. The first variant is around 120 m long, like first of class KRI Teluk Bintuni.

But once again 4-6 years after launch still not finished, thats ridiculously long. The much larger and more sophisticated LPDs from PAL are commissioned in less than one year after launch.
 

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Ananda

Well-Known Member
dont know why these ships are still not finished. Did the government not pay the bills, or are there problems with the construction at PT Dok & Perkapalan Kodja Bahari?
If it's money from government program is the matter, then why the similar ships build by private commercial Shipyards in Batam already operational two years ago ? ;)

Both LST from Kodja Bahari and Radar Utama in same variance. Both are 117M, and actually Kodja Bahari that come out with the design first. However the Radar Utama already launch 3 LST while finishing 2 others, and Kodja Bahari 2 LST still not finish.

As you have posted, both Kodja Bahari LST #518 and 519 are actually began construction first then Radar Utama #520 and 521. The fact Radar Utama launch and finishing their LST much sooner, and 3 consecutive LST order of #522,523,and 524 fell in to Radar Utama shown the problem with Kodja Bahari.

If Kodja Bahari is private Shipyards like Radar Utama, they'll be already facing big fine or bring to court for settlement. However Kodja Bahari is government owned shipyard. Thus the MinDef and SOE Ministry seems settling in behind the door. As usual if one of SOE create problem, the government will only change management but will find a way to keep the company on going.

This's one of problem in mentality that fell on some of SOE companies. Granted there're SOE's that have commercial leads, especially in Financial Industry, or construction. However we also see many SOE that can't compete well with Private competitors and should already bankrupt due to miss management and sheer incompetence, if it's not due to State Owned Company status. Kodja Bahari shipyard just happened to be one of those 'commercially' incompetence SOE.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
If it's money from government program is the matter, then why the similar ships build by private commercial Shipyards in Batam already operational two years ago ? ;)

Both LST from Kodja Bahari and Radar Utama in same variance. Both are 117M, and actually Kodja Bahari that come out with the design first. However the Radar Utama already launch 3 LST while finishing 2 others, and Kodja Bahari 2 LST still not finish.

As you have posted, both Kodja Bahari LST #518 and 519 are actually began construction first then Radar Utama #520 and 521. The fact Radar Utama launch and finishing their LST much sooner, and 3 consecutive LST order of #522,523,and 524 fell in to Radar Utama shown the problem with Kodja Bahari.

If Kodja Bahari is private Shipyards like Radar Utama, they'll be already facing big fine or bring to court for settlement. However Kodja Bahari is government owned shipyard. Thus the MinDef and SOE Ministry seems settling in behind the door. As usual if one of SOE create problem, the government will only change management but will find a way to keep the company on going.

This's one of problem in mentality that fell on some of SOE companies. Granted there're SOE's that have commercial leads, especially in Financial Industry, or construction. However we also see many SOE that can't compete well with Private competitors and should already bankrupt due to miss management and sheer incompetence, if it's not due to State Owned Company status. Kodja Bahari shipyard just happened to be one of those 'commercially' incompetence SOE.
Thank you for your explanation.

Btw, any news about the acquisition of two new minehunters, from which the contract was signed in januari 2019? Is it on hold or totally cancelled?

Also on their own website nothing about it after the contract was signed. CONTRACT SIGNED FOR TWO MINE COUNTER MEASURE VESSELS - Abeking & Rasmussen

Those old and obsolete Project 89 Kondor (Condor II) class minesweepers are in such a bad shape, that they are only usable as Slow Patrol Boats.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Another class which needs replacement is the Mandau class of fast missile boats. In the '80s and '90s these ships are very advanced and heavily armed for their size, and until now the fastest warships in the Indonesian Navy's fleet.

But after 40 years of operation the MM38 Exocet missiles are not anymore in operation. According to this video the Mandau Class will not be modernized/rearmed with MM40s. I know its an unreliable source of information, but looking to the age of 40 years, it make sense.

Besides that the second ship of the class, 622, was lost in a fire. So hopefully this class will be replaced by KCR-60 boats the coming years.

Bonusvideo with nice topview.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
Those old and obsolete Project 89 Kondor (Condor II) class minesweepers are in such a bad shape, that they are only usable as Slow Patrol Boats.
Those Condor II from beginning seems not really being counted for Modern Mine Hunting duties. At best they are going to be used for mine laying duties. Their equipment already obsolete by the time they are being acquired in the 90's.


In the '80s and '90s these ships are very advanced and heavily armed for their size, and until now the fastest warships in the Indonesian Navy's fleet.
The Experience of operating gas turbine on Mandau class FMB, rumoured as one of the reasons up until now TNI-AL still did not want to operate Gas Turbine as propulsion. Even for large Frigates project with Iver Based design still using Diesel propulsion, even tough with electric drive just being used by Sigma PKR Light Frigates.

As for replacement, all FMB of both Mandau and FPB 57 classes will be replaced as plan so far with KCR 40 and 60. No other potential candidates beside those two class. Since domestic shipyards already design and build FMB's, there will be big Political problem if some how MinDef or anyone in TNI-AL try to get foreign build/design FMB.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Experience of operating gas turbine on Mandau class FMB, rumoured as one of the reasons up until now TNI-AL still did not want to operate Gas Turbine as propulsion. Even for large Frigates project with Iver Based design still using Diesel propulsion, even tough with electric drive just being used by Sigma PKR Light Frigates.
The Iver Huitfeldt class, like the Absalon class it's based on, was designed from the start with diesels only. The Type 31 derived from is is also all-diesel. I expect any other derivative would also be diesel only. Cheaper than GTs both to buy & run, I think, which was definitely a factor for the Danes & for Type 31, & good if you want long range.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The Iver Huitfeldt class, like the Absalon class it's based on, was designed from the start with diesels only. The Type 31 derived from is is also all-diesel. I expect any other derivative would also be diesel only. Cheaper than GTs both to buy & run, I think, which was definitely a factor for the Danes & for Type 31, & good if you want long range.
It would be interesting to know the capital cost of the Iver’s diesel configuration versus the GT option, not that I believe a GT only option is worthwhile for an Iver, possibly a combined diesel/GT. No doubt about running costs and range, diesel wins. Both power plants are extremely reliable and as to maintenance/overall, again an interesting question.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
expect any other derivative would also be diesel only.
Based on Frigates design that come on Indodefense 18, Naval Group FTI, Odense Iver, Damen Sigma and Omega, and DSME KDXII based, all except Korean KDXII basically CODAD. After that TNI-AL and Indonesian MinDef only talking seriously on continuation of Sigma, preliminary contract development contract on Iver and rumours on talking with Naval Group on FTI (possible for Sigma alternative if further negotiations with Damen on Tech Transfer faltered).

No discussion that I heard on KDXII which was the only design in Indodefense that's CODAG. Seems for me it's shown strong preference until now from TNI-AL to not entertain seriously on propulsion design other than CODAD (albeit they're looking for CODADe as SIGMA PKR shown).
I suspect this's not just a matter of Economics on operational, but also they doesn't want to further invest with supporting infrastructure for turbine gas maintenance.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

A month ago, I put an article from Jane's that talked about Indonesian plan to get the last of Bremen class Frigates. This news just like the news of getting second hand Eurofighters from Austria already got so much discussion. Mostly negative especially from Prabowo's politicall rivals.

However now his Deputy talked with media that all of that still part of studies and assessment.
Based on Frigates design that come on Indodefense 18, Naval Group FTI, Odense Iver, Damen Sigma and Omega, and DSME KDXII based, all except Korean KDXII basically CODAD. After that TNI-AL and Indonesian MinDef only talking seriously on continuation of Sigma, preliminary contract development contract on Iver and rumours on talking with Naval Group on FTI (possible for Sigma alternative if further negotiations with Damen on Tech Transfer faltered).

No discussion that I heard on KDXII which was the only design in Indodefense that's CODAG. Seems for me it's shown strong preference until now from TNI-AL to not entertain seriously on propulsion design other than CODAD (albeit they're looking for CODADe as SIGMA PKR shown).
I suspect this's not just a matter of Economics on operational, but also they doesn't want to further invest with supporting infrastructure for turbine gas maintenance.
Besides the points in post #1065, it makes even less sense to continue with the acquisition of the second hand 30 years old Lübeck F122 Bremen class frigate, as it has CODOG propulsion.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Bakamla/Indonesian Coast Guard Chief talk about more clear jurisdiction on various Maritime issue. He used example on Chinese Coast Guard incident in North Natuna's water for better coordination on the Maritime Jurisdiction.

The way he talk on the type of Maritime Jurisdiction, seems shown how Bakamla wants to have more clearance on Jurisdiction that now involve and intersect with Fisheries Agency, SAR, Custom, and Maritime Transport.

As my previous post, I'm part of opinion that supports all that Jurisdiction being merge under Bakamla to simplify bureaucracy and fasten response. I wish him good luck to able to convince Administration and gaining Political support to build strong Coast Guard Organization.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Delegasi Jepang yang dipimpin oleh Rear Admiral Hoshi Naoya, Naval Ship Design Director Acquisition Technology and Logistic (ATLA) berkunjung ke galangan kapal/shipyard dan industri di Indonesia dari tanggal 22 s.d. 30 September 2020.

Selain dari ATLA, terdapat perwakilan Mitsubishi Heavy Industri (MHI), Nippon Kyokai (NK) dan Atase Pertahanan Jepang. Kunjungan tersebut dalam rangka rencana penjajakan pembangunan Kapal Fregat di Indonesia.

Galangan kapal/ Industri yg dikunjungi adalah PT.PAL di Surabaya, PT. LEN di Bandung, PT. Batamec, PT. Citra Shipyard, PT. Multy Ocean Shipyard di Batam, PT. Daya Radar Utama di Lampung, PT. Terafulk di Surabaya dan PT Tesco di Bekasi.
This coming from Lembaga Keris, an Indonesian private organization that involved on Defense Policies assessment. Seems build by combination of enthusiasts, ex military and journalist.

suspect the way Japan try to offer cooperation not on their existing platform or products. Japan knows their own JMSDF standard are high end products, that perhaps will be difficult to be absorb by most export market.
I put that quote as related on my previous post on how the Japanese especially their maritime Industry try to find cooperation with Indonesia on finding export market for their own products.

The way they're doing bit different then what Dutch, French, South Korean or Danes doing. They visit all Shipyards that already involved with Defense Contract, seems to see what their infrastructure capabilities. Also they went to talk with Terafulk which's more a maritime design company (their OPV design being used by Bakamla).

In such this seems shown what I suspect, the Japanese now looking around on what Indonesian Maritime Industry capabilities are for Defense related products. Thus they're seems going with the approach on "what you're capable off, and what do you need from us to improve that".

This can be more attractive for potential local Partner. In such the Japanese seems going to offer what are in their products and design portfolio that can be build or involved local Industry more.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo's using this kind of co-op law, to gain political support from Parliament in engaging Defense co-op projects by local defense industries with several potential partners. Before, the bilateral co-op law that already passed are for co-op with Ukraine.

This seems shown SAAB long term lobby effort beginning to gain political support. I put it in Indonesian Naval thread, as seems after looking the article that potential cooperation in maritime sectors that's mostly being aimed.

SAAB before already involved with marketing on Gripen. However the latest candidates talk seems shown Gripen already out of favour. Still potential using SAAB and other swedish maritime technology that begin to regain attraction.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo's using this kind of co-op law, to gain political support from Parliament in engaging Defense co-op projects by local defense industries with several potential partners. Before, the bilateral co-op law that already passed are for co-op with Ukraine.

This seems shown SAAB long term lobby effort beginning to gain political support. I put it in Indonesian Naval thread, as seems after looking the article that potential cooperation in maritime sectors that's mostly being aimed.

SAAB before already involved with marketing on Gripen. However the latest candidates talk seems shown Gripen already out of favour. Still potential using SAAB and other swedish maritime technology that begin to regain attraction.
For many years it was the plan to equip the Lundin Klewang 63 m trimaran class with Swedish systems
- Bofors 40 mm Mk4 gun
- Bofors RBS-15 Mk3 missiles
- Ericsson Sea Giraffe 1X short range 3D radar
- Celsius Ceros 200 fire control radar
- Philips-Saab 9LV CMS
But the trimaran program is still on hold, from which i understand.

Besides that this is just an agreement for possible future cooperation, so as always lets wait and see.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Besides that this is just an agreement for possible future cooperation, so as always lets wait and see
In term of legality it is one step further. Simple agreement for cooperation usually in the form of bilateral MoU. This one is Parliament ratification. Means it's already gaining Political Support to continue on definite co-op.

Before that, they already give it to Turkey and Ukraine. I might be mistaken, but I think they/the Parliament also already give this during SBY era for defense co-op with South Korea.

Yes it's still can be mean nothing in the implementation. However at least with this they already got Political support from Parliament to pursue.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
it makes even less sense to continue with the acquisition of the second hand 30 years old Lübeck F122 Bremen class frigate, as it has CODOG propulsion.

Seems I miss to mention that beside Mandau FMB's, the Fatahilla Corvettes also CODAG. However based on the article above, the MLU being done by PAL for those Corvettes also change their propulsion to CODAD.

Thus again this shown TNI-AL preference to operating CODAD environment. In such if somehow this plan for Interim second hand Frigates still being pursue, there's possibility they will prefer CODAD second hand Frigates or calculate changing it to CODAD.
 
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