Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

Well-Known Member
The main gist of the article is anything that the Indonesian govt does to accommodate PRC plans will validate and / or legitimise the PRC claims
PRC always want to deal SCS issue bilaterally or through committee with members of disputed claimant. However always refuse to discuss it on International bodies, since it will only bring question for it's legitimacy on the claim it self.

So, PRC will try to bought, threat, and coerced other claimants or SCS bordering nation's on this bilateral/multilateral talks, without involvement on International jurisdiction. They hope by that move they can pressure each of the neighbors one by one.

That's why their officials stand point is to tell non SCS bordering nation's to back off.
There're rules of International conducts that PRC try to override. UNCLOS off course something that they do not want to be involved with for SCS discussion. After all their claim based on vaguely traditional/historical rights.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

From Thales sites, on their project with LEN to upgrade ex Nahkoda Ragam Corvettes. KRI Usman Harun will be the first to be upgraded.
Seems the package shown much similarities with the system and sensors package in Martadinata Class (PKR SIGMA 10514).

Current packages for sensors and electronics for TNI-AL seems using either Thanks or Terma. Fatahilla Class Corvettes MLU center around Tea based system and sensors. Rumours also put Terma chose for next Frigates project (Iver Based).

Both Thales and Terma cooperate with Indonesian LEN as Partner for system Integration.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

From Thales sites, on their project with LEN to upgrade ex Nahkoda Ragam Corvettes. KRI Usman Harun will be the first to be upgraded.
Seems the package shown much similarities with the system and sensors package in Martadinata Class (PKR SIGMA 10514).

Current packages for sensors and electronics for TNI-AL seems using either Thanks or Terma. Fatahilla Class Corvettes MLU center around Tea based system and sensors. Rumours also put Terma chose for next Frigates project (Iver Based).

Both Thales and Terma cooperate with Indonesian LEN as Partner for system Integration.
Its really good that TNI-AL upgrades the frigates and corvettes which still have many years to go with Hollandse Signaalapparaten/Thales Nederland en Terma. Specially the Nkahoda Ragams/Bung Tomos are still quite new, and hopefully after the upgrade the Bung Tomos will not only be more similar to the SIGMA 10514 frigates in sensors and CMS, but also in armament. Because empty Seawolf launchtubes are quite useless.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Including the booster, VL Sea Wolf is almost the same length as Mica, which I think doesn't use a booster for VL. I can't see one in pictures of launches. It's obvious in pictures of VL Sea Wolf launches. Wingspan's a few cm different.

Fitting CAMM in Sea Wolf launchers requires slight lengthening of the launch tubes, as can be seem by comparing pictures of the Sea Wolf & Sea Ceptor ("mushroom farm") missile batteries on Type 23 frigates. I think that's because of the cold launch system. VL Mica may not need any lengthening. CAMM's slimmer: pictures of it being loaded on Type 23 show a square canister being lowered into what looks like an oversized tube. Rebuilding everything to maximise efficient use of space obviously wasn't thought worthwhile.

The lengthening for Sea Ceptor looks simple from the outside: a tube with a flange at the base bolted to the top of the Sea Wolf launcher, & a round cap. The protruding tube looks narrower than the Sea Wolf tube under it. But whatever the ease of fitting, I can see why they'd not want to add a new missile type to the inventory for three ships when they already have an adequate missile on other ships which could be fitted.
 

tonnyc

Active Member
First steel cutting ceremony for the "second hospital ship" back on Thursday. Indonesian language article. The phrase "kapal BRS" stands for "kapal bantu rumah sakit" and without going into linguistics, let's just say it's "hospital ship". The term "second hospital ship" is a bit ambiguous since there's already two hospital ships in TNI-AL; KRI Dr. Soeharso and KRI Semarang. So this should make three hospital ships. They may have meant the second ship in this batch though.

The ship itself will be a derivative of the Makassar-class. It remains to be seen whether this is intended to be a dedicated hospital ship. By tradition, hospital ships in the Indonesian Navy is supposed to be named after doctors while landing platform docks (LPD) are named after cities. This led many people to believe that the designation of KRI Semarang as a hospital ship is temporary pending the completion of a dedicated hospital ship, upon which time KRI Semarang will be designated as a general purpose LPD.

Launch is expected in December 2021 with the actual handover in Q4 2022.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
The term "second hospital ship" is a bit ambiguous since there's already two hospital ships in TNI-AL; KRI Dr. Soeharso and KRI Semarang.
Seems TNI-AL already put statement in local media that KRI Semarang is only temporary hospital ship, unlike Dr Soeharso that being build from beginning as Hospital Ship.
Thus this ship is seems also being design with build in facilities for Hospital/Medical purpose from the start.

 
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tonnyc

Active Member
Meanwhile, Bakamla (the Indonesian Coast Guard) is buying twenty 12.7 mm HMG from Pindad. While this is still not the autocannons that several of us think Bakamla should get for their main weapons, it's a welcome step and an appropriate choice for a secondary weapon systems.
The Jakarta Post article is in English but is a premium article so one has to be subscribed to get the full article, but the opening paragraphs give the main points. For those preferring the Indonesian language version, here's an article from Tempo.

The head of Bakamla said they will be installed in ten ships, the 110 m, 80 m, and 48 m ones.

In other articles, Bakamla says they'll try to acquire 30 mm autocannons next. However an unrelated article says that Bakamla's proposed 2021 budget is only Rp. 515 billion ($34.65 million using today's rate). This makes me pessimistic about the possibility of acquiring 30 mm autocannons. On the other hand, the 2021 state budget is not yet finalized so let's wait and hope for the best.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
First steel cutting ceremony for the "second hospital ship" back on Thursday. Indonesian language article. The phrase "kapal BRS" stands for "kapal bantu rumah sakit" and without going into linguistics, let's just say it's "hospital ship". The term "second hospital ship" is a bit ambiguous since there's already two hospital ships in TNI-AL; KRI Dr. Soeharso and KRI Semarang. So this should make three hospital ships. They may have meant the second ship in this batch though.

The ship itself will be a derivative of the Makassar-class. It remains to be seen whether this is intended to be a dedicated hospital ship. By tradition, hospital ships in the Indonesian Navy is supposed to be named after doctors while landing platform docks (LPD) are named after cities. This led many people to believe that the designation of KRI Semarang as a hospital ship is temporary pending the completion of a dedicated hospital ship, upon which time KRI Semarang will be designated as a general purpose LPD.

Launch is expected in December 2021 with the actual handover in Q4 2022.
First steel cutting...i thought the replacement for the KRI Semarang 594 as a hospital ship was already under construction...

Seems TNI-AL already put statement in local media that KRI Semarang is only temporary hospital ship, unlike Dr Soeharso that being build from beginning as Hospital Ship.
Thus this ship is seems also being design with build in facilities for Hospital/Medical purpose from the start.

Ahum...its actually the other way round. KRI Tanjung Dalpele 972 was built in Korsel as an LPD, and later converted to KRI Soeharso 990.
(I am sure you already know this, but you jist forgot )
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
While this is still not the autocannons that several of us think Bakamla should get for their main weapons
There's seems still political "tug of war" on the role of Bakamla. It might be due to budget, but TNI AL it self has many surplus weapons they can provide to Bakamla if they want.
TNI-AL in the process to replacing Parchim, they can give those Russian 57mm gun. It's basically can share ammo with S-60, so the logistics on that will not be difficult.
Or at the moment KCR-60 being equipped with 40mm old bofors, TNI-AL in the design want to have 57mm for KCR-60 (seems bofors Mk3 being preference). Thus they can give that to Bakamla if they want.

Thus with what they're facing in SCS with other coast guards, they should be more equipped.
 
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tonnyc

Active Member
First steel cutting...i thought the replacement for the KRI Semarang 594 as a hospital ship was already under construction...
Dammit, I made a huge error. Thank you for this comment, it prompted me to dig into the news archives and then I realized I made a huge error.

There are TWO hospital ships under construction.
The first one started construction in July 2019.
The second one started construction a few days ago.

Unfortunately the time limit for editing the post has passed, so I can't correct it. Consider this post the correction.
So TNI-AL will end up with three hospital ships. KRI Dr. Soeharso, and these two yet to be named ships.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
There's seems still political "tug of war" on the role of Bakamla. It might be due to budget, but TNI AL it self has many surplus weapons they can provide to Bakamla if they want.

Thus with what they're facing in SCS with other coast guards, they should be more equipped.
Quite childish actually to see the Coastguard as a concurrent or rival.

We have the Polair (Water Police) which recently got 22 small boats and a big one,

besides that the Menteri Kelautan dan Perikanan has 35 ships. Here we can see they got 4 new ships with a combines value of $58,3 million...

...and then we also have the Bea Cukai with their own boats.
And of course all of them want to get more and bigger ships than their 'rivals'. That contestic behaviour is something really stupid and contraproductive.

I understand they have overlapping roles and responsabilities, but at this moment BAKAMLA needs urgently larger and better armed ships in Laut Natuna Utara.

Dammit, I made a huge error. Thank you for this comment, it prompted me to dig into the news archives and then I realized I made a huge error.

There are TWO hospital ships under construction.
The first one started construction in July 2019.
The second one started construction a few days ago.

Unfortunately the time limit for editing the post has passed, so I can't correct it. Consider this post the correction.
So TNI-AL will end up with three hospital ships. KRI Dr. Soeharso, and these two yet to be named ships.
I totally understand. I was actually surprised that you got so many information about the chinese coast guard vessel 5204. Are you a ship spotter, is it because you are interested in the Spratly Sea?
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
And of course all of them want to get more and bigger ships than their 'rivals'. That contestic behaviour is something really stupid and contraproductive.

I understand they have overlapping roles and responsabilities, but at this moment BAKAMLA needs urgently larger and better armed ships in Laut Natuna Utara.
Agree, off course it's stupid and counterproductive. The thing is all those 'maritime' agencies are fighting more or less same turf, the jurisdiction on commercial activities in the coastal and teritorial sea.

There's a lot of commercial activities that need to be regulated and control in the sea. The distribution and coordination of Jurisdiction despite all the talk of current administration for maritime focus is not properly solved.

The idea of Bakamla as Indonesian Coast Guard it self is being the agency that handle non miltary security of commercial activities in the Indonesian Teritorial and EEZ waters. That's big scope, that all other current maritime agencies patrol duties like Fisheries, Custom, SAR and Police should be under Bakamla coordination.

Off course those agencies try to fight, and maintain their patrolling jurisdiction. After all that's the biggest 'pie' on their activities.
It can only be solve if the political will of current administration really want to stream line maritime jurisdiction and bueracracy. That's what I still don't see happen yet.

As for Bakamla/Coast Guard overlapping jurisdiction with the Navy, in my opinion it is should be more clear cut. Coast Guard handle non military maritime security, while the Navy handle the Military challenge.

That's why China send it's Coast Guard on handling fisheries dispute in SCS and not PLAN. On that context all patrol boats from the Navy should be given to coast guard, as they are not suitable for military duties and challenge anyway.

TNI-AL should only operate Corvettes as the smallest vessels on their inventory. They should only working with proper warships and not small patrol boats anymore. However they still building those 44 m coastal patrol boats, which only good for patrolling short range from their base. What can those patrol boats can do on modern naval challenge ? Nothing..thus why Navy still adamant to have it ?
All those because Navy still doesn't want to relinquish coastal patrol duties, because it's very "lucrative". In sense the Navy still want to have jurisdiction on commercial sea security. Something that should be handle by Coast Guard.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What about KRI Teluk Ende 517? It was for many years TNI-ALs only hospitalship, before 990 was commissioned.
It seems it is now a normal LST, without real medical facilities.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
was for many years TNI-ALs only hospitalship, before 990 was commissioned.
If not mistaken, the medical facilities in KRI Teluk Ende is not build in permanently. It's more on mobile unit. While such as KRI Dr Soeharso build with more permanent Medical Units, even tough in the beginning it's also build as LPD.

If we see the superstructure of Dr Soeharso, it's different from other LPD in Makasar Class even the ones that build in ROK as Dr Soeharso did.
Seems this shown during construction this LPD than come to redesign phase to become more dedicated medical ships.
While Teluk Ended still from beginning retain capabilities of regular Tacoma Class LST.
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
If not mistaken, the medical facilities in KRI Teluk Ende is not build in permanently. It's more on mobile unit. While such as KRI Dr Soeharso build with more permanent Medical Units, even tough in the beginning it's also build as LPD.

If we see the superstructure of Dr Soeharso, it's different from other LPD in Makasar Class even the ones that build in ROK as Dr Soeharso did.
Seems this shown during construction this LPD than come to redesign phase to become more dedicated medical ships.
While Teluk Ended still from beginning retain capabilities of regular Tacoma Class LST.
Yes indeed, so the replacement of KRI Semarang 594 ( first hospital ship) and the second hospital ship (with first steel cutting recently done) are actually the first two ships purposely built as hospital ship...
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Agree, off course it's stupid and counterproductive. The thing is all those 'maritime' agencies are fighting more or less same turf, the jurisdiction on commercial activities in the coastal and teritorial sea.

There's a lot of commercial activities that need to be regulated and control in the sea. The distribution and coordination of Jurisdiction despite all the talk of current administration for maritime focus is not properly solved.

The idea of Bakamla as Indonesian Coast Guard it self is being the agency that handle non miltary security of commercial activities in the Indonesian Teritorial and EEZ waters. That's big scope, that all other current maritime agencies patrol duties like Fisheries, Custom, SAR and Police should be under Bakamla coordination.

Off course those agencies try to fight, and maintain their patrolling jurisdiction. After all that's the biggest 'pie' on their activities.
It can only be solve if the political will of current administration really want to stream line maritime jurisdiction and bueracracy. That's what I still don't see happen yet.

As for Bakamla/Coast Guard overlapping jurisdiction with the Navy, in my opinion it is should be more clear cut. Coast Guard handle non military maritime security, while the Navy handle the Military challenge.

That's why China send it's Coast Guard on handling fisheries dispute in SCS and not PLAN. On that context all patrol boats from the Navy should be given to coast guard, as they are not suitable for military duties and challenge anyway.

TNI-AL should only operate Corvettes as the smallest vessels on their inventory. They should only working with proper warships and not small patrol boats anymore. However they still building those 44 m coastal patrol boats, which only good for patrolling short range from their base. What can those patrol boats can do on modern naval challenge ? Nothing..thus why Navy still adamant to have it ?
All those because Navy still doesn't want to relinquish coastal patrol duties, because it's very "lucrative". In sense the Navy still want to have jurisdiction on commercial sea security. Something that should be handle by Coast Guard.
I think we are all agree with you, but the navy keeps ordering small patrol boats. In December 2019 two 28 meters long aluminium boats (PC-28M?) were delivered, these boats are armed with a 20 mm gun (its not a Yugoimport 20mm M71/08 isn't it?) and two 12,7 mm machineguns.
KAL Anyer I-3-64 and KAL Rajegwesi II-5-40

Also in August 2020 two Pari-class (PC-40M ?)
KRI Karotang 872 and KRI Mata Bongsang 873 were launched in Batam. If im not wrong some of these 45,5 meter long ships are armed with the Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm gun.

I understand Indonesia needs also small patrol boats as the largest archipelago in the world, but the navy needs larger, better and heavily armed vessels. The majority of the navy's (more than 50 pcs) vessels are completely unusable in Laut Natuna (Utara).
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
understand Indonesia needs also small patrol boats as the largest archipelago in the world, but the navy needs larger, better and heavily armed vessels.
Unless there's politicall will to sort out Maritime Jurisdiction, the Navy still put resources to build those small patrol boats. So does the other maritime agencies from Coast Guard, Maritime Police, Fisheries and SAR.
As if they race to build those boats to keep their jurisdiction being taken.

Well, what do I complaining about. At least they build something. Eventough it's only good to patrol area near their respective base/ports. Then again it's the area where most commercial activities in the sea takin on. It's very lucrative jurisdiction. ;)
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

From PT. PAL online sites. Japanese Defense Officials visit PAL shipyard facilities. Seems Japan on the serious move to find export market for their Defense Equipment. With Indonesia serious to make involvement of domestic shipyards on defense procurement, they're now working to create potential partnership.

I suspect they're looking for potential partnership on OPV/Corvettes size vessel. Perhaps evolved design from PAL own KCR/Fast Missile Boats 60. From previous PAL announcement and design rendering, they're planning to offer OPV/Corvettes design evolve from KCR 60.

Despite all the talks on Damen PKR Light Frigates and Iver Based Frigates, those OPV/Corvettes project I suspect will still be the main combat fleet in the future especially in term of numbers.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

From PT. PAL online sites. Japanese Defense Officials visit PAL shipyard facilities. Seems Japan on the serious move to find export market for their Defense Equipment. With Indonesia serious to make involvement of domestic shipyards on defense procurement, they're now working to create potential partnership.

I suspect they're looking for potential partnership on OPV/Corvettes size vessel. Perhaps evolved design from PAL own KCR/Fast Missile Boats 60. From previous PAL announcement and design rendering, they're planning to offer OPV/Corvettes design evolve from KCR 60.

Despite all the talks on Damen PKR Light Frigates and Iver Based Frigates, those OPV/Corvettes project I suspect will still be the main combat fleet in the future especially in term of numbers.
Japan is trying to put the new 30FFM on the export market, as we could see on the Navalnews video you have posted at the JMSDF-thread.
So it is possible that they try to find out if Indonesia is interested in the OPV-version of the 30FFM, or like you said a joint development of a new OPV/korvet class based on the KCR-60 with maybe Japanese systems.

Or.....its just a visit and nothing will happen until 2024....
 
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