Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
We know Indian bureaucracy on defense planning create their own 'side projects' thus resulted on much decision delay. Something that if not careful will happen to Indonesian defense SOE. The model of Indian inefficient defense SOE already shown similarities taken by Indonesian defense SOE.

In such the big problem in overall Tejas project delay not only related to HAL inefficient process, but also to Indian politics insistence for Kaveri Turbofan engine. When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404. It take a lot of wrangling within Indian bureaucracy and Political circles to decide the mass production of Tejas Mk1a version still using GE404.

Indian Political circles now even has to swallow their nationalistic pride on taking GE414 for the next Tejas Mk2 for their indigenous MRCA program. This kind of nationalistic wrangling is different with PRC approach that doesn't shy away on taking/using Russian engine for time being until they can come out with their own reliable version for their J-10 as example.

India meantime spend times on try to salvage Kaveri for Tejas Mk1a, even talk with French on using Snecma core for Kaveri. Until they don't have choices to speed up Mk1a mass production schedule by still using imported GE404.
 

Bonplan

New Member

@Bonplan We have the requirement that posters provide a couple of lines of text explaining why they are posting the particular item. I have already suggested that you read the rules. Green ink posts from a Moderator are something that is in your best interests to follow.

Ngatimozart.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
@Bonplan, if you only want to put video without any comments from you. I suggest you put it on Videos thread. Don't put it on discussion thread like this one. The mods will not like it.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Welcome to Defencetalk.
Like Ananda already said, its maybe better if you add some text/comment/opinion/explanation to your video. It is not only the way we normally post, but this video is also in an not-understandable language without subtitles.

Thanks berfore!
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
At last.....India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Airbus Defence and Space on 24 September to buy 56 C295 MW medium transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to replace its legacy Avro 748M transport fleet.

On 1 November 1961, so almost 60 years ago, the first Indian-assembled HAL-748 made its first flight. By the end of production, HAL had completed 89 Indian-built aircraft, 72 of which were for the Indian Air Force.

The MoD declared in an official statement that the deal involves acquiring 16 C295s from Airbus in fly-away condition from Spain, while the remaining 40 aircraft will be built in partnership with the private-sector Tata consortium via a technology transfer.

So it seems there will be no cooperation with the state owned HAL.

 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's good that HAL have been left out of the loop. Tata should do a good job and the project delivered close to on time and near budget.
 

Adioz

New Member
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
What makes you think that HAL waited before ordering the engines? They placed the order merely 6 months after receiving the Tejas Mk1A order.


When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404.
Agree with the larger point of bureaucratic delays but the amount spent on Kaveri development is hardly enough. They spent somewhere around $280 Million on the development, if I remember correctly. That is not "pouring", rather its "sprinkling" compared to what market leaders like GE have put in year after year for decades.


2. I speculate that the Indian MOD is cutting out Russian influence at HAL by shutting down the Su-30MKI line totally (as HAL was the one that prevented a non-Russian foreign fighter from being made in India). The IAF’s current planned procurement is for a new fleet of 114 fighters (this follows the cancellation in 2015 of its 2007 tender for 126 MMRCA), and the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters as a stop-gap measure in 2016.

3. Short of numbers, the IAF has launched the procurement of 114 medium fighters in an exercise that closely mirrors the MMRCA tender.
  • With the USAF order of eight F-15EX in hand and the prospect of 72 more (as follow on American orders to come in 2021-2026), Boeing is going to be able to offer significant off-sets to Indian companies if they can win the 114 fighter tender — HAL will be left in the cold.

  • IMO, Boeing will offer the F-15EX to the IAF, while offering the block 3 Super Hornet to the Indian Navy (which is separately pursuing the acquisition of 57 carrier-deck fighters, to eventually replace their unreliable MiG-29Ks).
4. The US Navy uses the Block 3 Super Hornet and Growler as carrier-deck fighters. It is likely the line will be shutdown after the production of the last few block 3 Super Hornets (at most 36 more from FY 2022 to 2024). This will facilitate the ramp up of production for the F-35Cs from the current 12 a year (for both the US Navy and US Marines) and pay for development of Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter by the end of Biden’s term in office. A win of 57 with the Indian Navy will keep the Super Hornet line open for 3 to 4 more years.
Maybe, but I am willing to bet F-15EX will never see service in IAF for the sole reason that its too heavy an aircraft. IAF has clearly stated it needs Medium fighters. F-15EX is too beastly and the Su-30MKI already fulfills that role.

It would be beneficial to both the Indian Air Force and Navy if HAL was to be removed from the Indian military aviation scene. It's been a millstone around the neck of Indian military aviation for years and in fact the Indian Government should sell it off or disestablish it. It is a government department, is a typical Indian government bureaucracy and has no idea about working in the aviation market place. I dread to think how many hundreds of billions of US dollars that its incompetence and sheer bungling has cost the Indian government over the years.
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
Well HAL has all the characteristics of a government department, even though it's an SOE. The point is that the IAF are sick of the continual delays, cost overruns, and mediocre performance of HAL designed capabilities. It's negatively impacting upon their operational capability. How profitable is HAL? Is it actually profitable at all? Profit and loss are just one metric. Efficiency, reliable products, on time delivery at the contracted cost, capabilities that are at the least comparable to ones enemies best capabilities, are what should be designed and provided by the company. That it isn't doing.

It's had decades to sort all of this out and India isn't short on the talent or institutes of higher learning. If the Chinese achieved what they have done in their military aviation field, why hasn't India? Yes the Chinese cheated, but India has had the advantage that India have access to western educational, scientific, engineering and aviation facilities since 1947 and whilst India has struggled with domestic social problems, as well as external problems from the start, it has made staggering progress since. Unfortunately HAL smothered that.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
What makes you think that HAL waited before ordering the engines? They placed the order merely 6 months after receiving the Tejas Mk1A order.
You better read all the context before you go jumping-in on answering. Sandhi’s comment on the Indian (not just HAL) decision to order 99 GE404 (as video from Indian media shows). He was saying that India should have decided to use GE404 long time ago, rather than waiting for indigenous engine/Kaveri program (which until now basically halted, based on Indian Media reports).

They spent somewhere around $280 Million on the development, if I remember correctly. That is not "pouring", rather its "sprinkling" compared to what market leaders like GE have put in year after year for decades.
Do you have source that confirm it's only USD 280 Mio (better be official government sources) that being 'poured' on Kaveri ? Because I read also from Indian forums, which Indian members claim different numbers. Better read the forum rules where if you claim something has to be based on credible sources.

You can't also compare how much GE pouring on developing GE404 in early 70's cause it is not Apple to Apple with what an Indian Government Research Institution pouring to developing Kaveri much later on. The accounting calculation will be different for one thing, and USD to USD value comparison is much different between what US and India (different Purchasing Power scale) spend.
 
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Adioz

New Member
Well HAL has all the characteristics of a government department, even though it's an SOE.
Oh sweet summer child (GoT reference). If you think HAL is "like a government department", wait till you hear about the shenannigans of the infamous Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). In front of the likes of OFB, HAL appears like a saint. Though it ain't.

The point is that the IAF are sick of the continual delays, cost overruns, and mediocre performance of HAL designed capabilities. It's negatively impacting upon their operational capability.
Yes HAL QC issues are a pain in the a$$, especially when it comes to engines. There is a line I once saw written at an Indian Air Force station: "Poor maintenance is murder". Doesn't seem like HAL adheres to it strictly. And there have been programs like HJT Sitara which are FUBAR to the point of needing a redesign causing a decade's worth of delay. But its not like HAL is without positives either like LCH, LUH, HTT-40, HTSE-1200, HTFE-25, etc; along with the parts HAL supplies for India's space program. And most of these being recent programs hints at improvements in HAL's work culture maybe. But compare that to OFB and finding the positives of OFB is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

How profitable is HAL? Is it actually profitable at all? Profit and loss are just one metric. Efficiency, reliable products, on time delivery at the contracted cost, capabilities that are at the least comparable to ones enemies best capabilities, are what should be designed and provided by the company. That it isn't doing.
HAL is a profitable enterprise, but that could be largely due to it having a monopoly in Indian Aerospace. The recent defence reforms seem to have broken that monopoly. This is what has me excited about the future of Indian Defence Industry. Now these PSUs (not just HAL but almost all the PSUs) need to compete for contracts from the military and civilians. Although there is still some work left in regards to leveling the playing ground between private and public enterprises in India.
Lion's share of QC issues relating to HAL have to do with either MiG-21 or engines. Remove these two and the rest of HAL QC is satisfactory in most cases. Sticking to deadlines is something HAL does seem to struggle with at times. The capability of its products though, especially compared to China, aren't bad at all. And when I say "its products", I don't mean everything they manufacture but the products that they themselves design and manufacture.
Now compare that with what the OFB does and whatever you said about HAL applies on OFB 10 times over. Point is, in the Indian parlance, HAL is much better than a government department. I realize I am playing the devil's advocate here, but I am happy with the current direction of defence sector reforms. Scope for improvement is always there though. But lets see if HAL continues to be profitable 10-15 years from now. If it doesn't reform itself, it might get sold off next decade.


It's had decades to sort all of this out and India isn't short on the talent or institutes of higher learning. If the Chinese achieved what they have done in their military aviation field, why hasn't India? Yes the Chinese cheated, but India has had the advantage that India have access to western educational, scientific, engineering and aviation facilities since 1947 and whilst India has struggled with domestic social problems, as well as external problems from the start, it has made staggering progress since. Unfortunately HAL smothered that.
I am not going to pretend that HAL's monopoly has been good for Indian aerospace sector, it hasn't. Its a small part of what ailed Indian economy as a whole since Independence: License Raj. Indian economic growth has only lifted off after economic reforms started in early 1990s. Those reforms didn't spread in aerospace sector until very recently. But comparing Indian and Chinese aerospace industries is an apples to oranges comparison. It cannot be answered without going outside the scope of this thread and delving into geopolitics, domestic politics, global and local economic policies and trends, demographics, etc. So lets refrain from off-topic for now.

You better read all the context before you jumping on answering. Sandhi comment on Indian (not just HAL) decision to order 99 GE404 (as video from Indian media). When India should decide to used GE404 long time ago, rather than waiting for indigenous engine/Kaveri program (which until now still not progressing enough).
Maybe I am being thick, but I still don't understand it. I did read the context (though could have misunderstood it). If he is talking about Indian decision to de-link Kaveri program from Tejas, then that decision occurred back in 2008. What is there to suggest that "India" was waiting for Kaveri program to succeed after that? The decision to order the 99 GE-404 this year simply follows the larger Tejas Mk1A order which also got placed this year. Where is the delay?

Do you have source that confirm it's only USD 280 Mio (better be official government sources) that being 'poured' on Kaveri ? Because I read also from Indian forums, which Indian members claim different numbers. Better read the forum rules where if you claim something has to be based on credible sources.
Ofcourse. Here is the official source: https://cag.gov.in/webroot/uploads/...liance_Defence_Air_Force_and_Navy_16_2010.pdf
Pardon me for a lose currency conversion.

You can't also compare how much GE pouring on developing GE404 in early 70's cause it is not Apple to Apple with what an Indian Government Research Institution pouring to developing Kaveri much later on. The accounting calculation will be different for one thing, and USD to USD value comparison is much different between what US and India (different Purchasing Power scale) spend.
Agreed. Catch-up growth is always faster. GE didn't have nearly the same kind of CFD and FEA toolkit that GTRE had its disposal, thanks to advancements in computational mechanics and computers themselves. I am merely pointing out the fact that developing an engine equivalent to GE-404 can't be done on the peanuts that GTRE's budget is. Maybe I chose the wrong example, should have chosen the Chinese one instead.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Maybe, but I am willing to bet F-15EX will never see service in IAF for the sole reason that its too heavy an aircraft.
1. India has brave airmen and pilots but they are supported by a Ministry of Defeat (Indian MOD); whose goal seems to prevent fleet modernisation by conducting platform competitions, whose criteria for selection seems to be so poorly written as to enable every fighter manufacturer to instead of a select 2 or 3 as qualified fighter finalist manufacturers. The Rafales and Eurofighters may be lighter (than the F-15EX) but after all the relevant Indian specified inserts may not be cheaper.

2. Are fighters role measured by weight, or role preponderance? Go read Air Power 101 for New Members, for the 4 roles of AirPower. You will notice none of these roles are defined by weight class. The IAF selection of Rafales is the Indian MOD procurement of 36 multi-role strike fighters, which is obviously not enough given the authorised strength of the IAF.

3. If the platform is to perform mainly in an air superiority role, the tranche 4, Eurofighter Typhoon has certain performance characteristics in the high-transonic sped range and technology inserts that enable it to excel in that role — this includes BAE Systems' Striker HMSS helmet, for a close-in, turning fight when paired ASRAAM air-to-air missiles. For BVR fights, it’s super cruise ability, along with the long range MBDA Meteor air-to-air missiles that gives its first look, first shoot capability at range.

IAF has clearly stated it needs Medium fighters. F-15EX is too beastly and the Su-30MKI already fulfills that role.
4. I note that there no reference to light, medium or heavy in many of the F-15 user club. The F-15 family is being used by numerous tertiary air forces like the JASDF, the ROKAF and RSAF to perform various roles that the Su-30MKI will not be used for (given it’s known role in the IAF) — to enhance deterrence within their threat matrix. It’s an integrated design response to avoid the need for a complex strike package in certain mission sets.
(a) The ROKAF have integrated the Taurus KEPD 350 (a Swedish-German air-launched cruise missile) into their F-15Ks with CFTs (giving it range), for self escort penetrating strikes against a nuclear armed North Korea (that may or may not have Chinese support at the start of hostilities). This means the Koreans plan to conduct penetrating strikes in the face of Chinese air defence systems, supported by their Peace Eye E-737s.​
(b) The RSAF is a noted innovative user of the platform for maritime ISR, SEAD and anti-ship strike, with its CFTs (giving it range), internal EW systems (giving it persistence and internal cooling system for self protection jamming support), that even amazed the USAF. The Americans have commented on the innovative use of a Singaporean self-escort penetrating strike fighters in maritime role (for sea control), to compliment the data gathered by Singapore’s tiny MPA fleet and supported by G550 CAEWs.​
 
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Adioz

New Member
1. India has brave airmen and pilots but they are supported by a Ministry of Defeat (Indian MOD); whose goal seems to prevent fleet modernisation by conducting platform competitions, whose criteria for selection seems to be so poorly written as to enable every fighter manufacturer to instead of a select 2 or 3 as qualified fighter finalist manufacturers. The Rafales and Eurofighters may be lighter (than the F-15EX) but after all the relevant Indian specified inserts may not be cheaper.

2. Are fighters role measured by weight, or role preponderance? Go read Air Power 101 for New Members, for the 4 roles of AirPower. You will notice none of these roles are defined by weight class…
I remember reading that link few years ago. Very informative read. But the "heavy-medium-light" categories are an IAF classification, as has been stated by multiple Air Force Chiefs over the years. From my understanding of it, the classification is based not just on the weight, because that is a useless metric in and of itself. But weight is an indicator of more relevant parameters like the endurance, size of radar, payload, hardpoints and most importantly, operating costs. Its the same as a "hi-lo" combination of fighter aircraft in other air forces.

Lets take MiG-21 and its replacement: Tejas as an example. The role is to have a "light" jet that can fit in the forward airbases with small HAS, have low operating costs and quick turn-around times. Primary role was meant to be interceptor but with Tejas entering the picture, there is now a lot more flexibility due to Tejas being multi-role. In Exercise Gagan-Shakti 2018, Tejas managed to attain the highest sorties per day out of all the aircraft in IAF fleet. But its radar is nowhere near as powerful as a heavy category Su-30MKI. But it wouldn't cost nearly as much as a Sukhoi to operate or own and will be able to conduct more sorties than a Su-30MKI, though with less on-station time or with requirement of refueling.

Point is, most Air Force's understand this distinction and have at least two classes of fighters, though they probably don't label them "light" and "heavy" like the IAF does. IAF however, has three classes, don't ask me why, I don't know for sure. I think they should drop the light category entirely, or at least put all single-engine medium fighters like Mirage in the light category but they don't. They refer to the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A as Light Combat Aircraft while calling the Tejas Mk2 a Medium Weight Fighter. Basically putting Rafale and Tejas Mk2 in the same category. Frankly it might even be something as simple as HAS dimensions that is the cause of this classification but whatever it is, its important to the Air Force because they don't drop that classification.

The competition you are talking about has is a role that has been dubbed the "Medium Multirole Fighter Aircraft" by the Indian Air Force itself. And by its own admission, Sukhoi-30MKI is a "Heavy Air Dominance Fighter". So no doubt F-15EX wouldn't even be considered in this competition by virtue of it being in the same "Weight-class" as a Su-30MKI. Its a bigger bird than a Rafale, for example. In the words of former Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha:
“But we have just ordered 36 aircraft and we require more aircraft in this middle weight category to give entire spectrum of capability,” he said, adding that a void has been created in the past because of obsolescence and many of the squadrons will be past their use-by date. “We have already used them for four decades plus. It is time to retire them and get new aircraft… Over the next 10 years, we must have 200-250 aircraft. It has to be balanced out. In the heavy weight spectrum, we have enough. But in the medium weight category, we need to have more. Yes, about 200 will be very good,"
source: India needs 200-250 more Rafale fighters, 36 not enough: IAF chief Arup Raha
 
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Adioz

New Member
4. …The F-15 family is being used by numerous tertiary air forces like the JASDF, the ROKAF and RSAF to perform various roles that the Su-30MKI will not be used for (given it’s known role in the IAF) — to enhance deterrence within their threat matrix. It’s an integrated design response to avoid the need for a complex strike package in certain mission sets.

(a) The ROKAF have integrated the Taurus KEPD 350 (a Swedish-German air-launched cruise missile) into their F-15Ks with CFTs (giving it range), for self escort penetrating strikes against a nuclear armed North Korea (that may or may not have Chinese support at the start of hostilities). This means the Koreans plan to conduct penetrating strikes in the face of Chinese air defence systems, supported by their Peace Eye E-737s.​

(b) The RSAF is a noted innovative user of the platform for maritime ISR, SEAD and anti-ship strike, with its CFTs (giving it range), internal EW systems (giving it persistence and internal cooling system for self protection jamming support), that even amazed the USAF. The Americans have commented on the innovative use of a Singaporean self-escort penetrating strike fighters in maritime role (for sea control), to compliment the data gathered by Singapore’s tiny MPA fleet and supported by G550 CAEWs.​
Sure each Air Force customizes its systems to achieve certain mission profiles. For example, some of the so-called "Heavy Air-Dominance fighter" of the Indian Air Force, the Su-30MKI, are also modified to carry the BrahMos-A cruise missile and at least one squadron (called the Tigesharks) has been placed in W.Bengal to replace a Jaguar squadron in the maritime strike role. Currently, Su-30MKI are also the first aircraft to receive the new Indian Anti-radiation missile NGARM a.k.a. Rudram-1. So even though its called an air-dominance fighter in IAF service, its not limited to that role. There is currently an upgrade of the Su-30MKI that is being worked upon intermittently that will likely open up many new roles for the Su-30MKI. The upgrade includes AESA radars, new RWR, MAWS, new jammer pods, new cockpit and possibly new engines (only part of upgrade that depends on external party).
 
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Adioz

New Member
  • First photos of stealthy flying wing UAV called Stealth Wing Flying Testbed (SWiFT) conducting taxi trials:
  • This is a technology demonstrator of the larger Ghatak stealth UCAV which might be the only aircraft to be powered by a Kaveri engine derivative. Work on the dry version of Kaveri is on, a new inlet distortion resistant fan was displayed earlier last year:
  • Prototypes of the new Kaveri dry engines are being manufactured. Turbine blade material (Superni 263A) dispatched earlier this year: First consignment of parts for Kaveri engine
  • Fluidic Thrust Vectoring will be used as has been researched by NAL: https://nal-ir.nal.res.in/12145/1/cp191.pdf
  • Initial funds for Ghatak (approx. $30.8 Million) were released in 2016: https://pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=158007
  • Funds included funds for development of critical technologies for both AMCA and Ghatak, showing that the two projects are closely linked. My guess would be its in the RAM/RAS department.
  • Some reports suggest that the SWiFT, which is a mere Technology Demonstrator, will be developed as its own project. SWiFT is to be powered by either the Russian NPO Saturn 36MT engine or the Indian Manik Engine: https://newsonair.com/2021/06/23/drdo-initiates-the-trails-of-advanced-stealth-swift-drone/
  • This is an ADA project till now, and naturally has not been included in the HAL CATS concept, but it would be a cool platform to have a stand-in jammer on. Its too small to carry current anti-radiation missile (Rudram-1) though.
  • Ghatak has been shown to have an internal weapons bay, possibly similar in size to AMCA's own weapons bay. I see unmanned wingman potential.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Adioz,

What is the reason behind the new engines for the MKIs?

Would I be correct in saying that only part of the MKI fleet will be configured to carry Brahmos?

At the moment what data link is fitted to the MKI? Is it the intention for the MKIs, Fulcrums and Rafales to have a common data link?
 

Adioz

New Member
Adioz,

What is the reason behind the new engines for the MKIs?

Would I be correct in saying that only part of the MKI fleet will be configured to carry Brahmos?

At the moment what data link is fitted to the MKI? Is it the intention for the MKIs, Fulcrums and Rafales to have a common data link?
  • New engines for MKI are meant to be part of mid-life upgrade.This upgrade is dubbed the "Super Sukhoi upgrade" and has been planned since around 2010.
    • Initially, it was supposed to be carried out by Russians entirely but they quoted a price above budget of IAF, so the upgrade was put in cold storage.
    • Now there are signs that it would be mostly Indian upgrade given the avionics DRDO has been developing recently.
    • But the biggest point remains the engines, the current AL-31FP engines have reliability issues as told to Parliament by Defence Minister in 2016: Sukhoi fighter jets have faced midair engine trouble: Manohar Parrikar
    • As to why new engines, AL-41F-1S engine is on offer and its got 14% higher thrust. Should be useful in combating the drag due to multilaunch rails for increased BVRAAM loadout, among other things. Not sure what IAF stance is on the issue.
    • Invariably, as an airframe grows older, its upgrades generally lead to an increase in dry weight of aircraft. So makes sense to look for new engine to atleast maintain thrust to weight ratio.
  • Yes. Currently, only 42 Su-30MKI are planned to carry BrahMos-A out of a total of 272 Su-30MKI.
    • These require structural modification which was first carried out and validated by HAL without Russian help.
    • Unsure of the present status of total number of jets modified.
    • By January last year, the first two newly built Su-30MKI with the modification were delivered to the newly ressurrected Squadron 222 (Tigersharks) at AFS Thanjavur (close to Bay of Bengal and Sri Lanka). They are meant to perform a maritime strike role.
    • Last deliveries of Su-30MKI by HAL to IAF rolled out this January, also to the Tigersharks squadron.
    • Another modified Su-30 MKI squadron is likely to replace Squadron 6 (Dragons) which is a Jaguar squadron in the maritime strike role in AFS Jamnagar (close to Pakistan and Arabian Sea).
    • No information of how many in each squadron will receive the modification, but there were reasonable rumours of a third Su-30MKI squadron with this modification to be placed at AFS Hasimara (close to Lhasa, Tibet), co-located with Squadron 101 (Falcons) operating the Rafale. If that happens, then it would mean that 14 out of 18 Su-30MKI jets in each of the three squadrons will have this modification, adding up to a total of 42 Su-30MKI with this modification.
    • Further implies that at least 14 Su-30MKI with this modification are active right now (all in Tigershark squadron).
  • Data link
    • Till last year, Su-30MKI depended on the INCOM 1210A radios made by HAL: https://www.ijraset.com/fileserve.php?FID=7772
    • As of 2011, the ECCM of these radios was sub-par (see page 31, section 2.4): https://cag.gov.in/uploads/download..._Defence_Air_Force_and_Navy_20_2011_chap2.pdf
    • Air Force is trying to implement an ODL (Operational Data Link) across its entire fleet and various ground nodes
    • Indigenous options for SDR have been available:-
    • But in 2017 Air Force awarded the contract to a Joint-venture between Israeli Rafael and Indian Astra Microwaves Pvt. Ltd. (majority stake owned by the Indian company). This is the radio: Welcome
    • Its based on the Israeli Rafael's BNET-AR SDR with significant Indian sourced content.
    • ODL integration with Su-30MKI started last year (thank the Gods): Sukhoi-30MKI starts getting New Secured Radio and Radio altimeter – Indian Defence Research Wing
    • Although its meant to be implemented across the board in the Air Force, I have only heard Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG, Mirage 2000 and Tejas Mk1A being mentioned with this news. No mention yet of Jaguar or Rafale. Isn't listed on Rafale's "India specific enhancements" list either. Lets see what happens.
    • This was asked once in Parliament back in 2014: Dr. Shashi Tharoor's official website
      • QUESTION:
        (a) whether the Integrated Radio Communication System (INCOM) developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) does not meet the requirement of jam-resistant and secure radio sets and if so, the details thereof;

        (b) the expenditure incurred on the INCOM sets developed by the HAL;

        (c) whether the IAF has accepted the deliveries in spite of defects and non-usability of the equipment and if so, the details thereof, along with the reasons therefor;

        (d) whether the Government proposes to replace or redesign these radio sets and penalize the HAL; and

        (e) if so, the details thereof?
      • ANSWER BY MINISTER OF STATE (RAO INDERJIT SINGH) IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
        (a) Integrated Radio Communication set (INCOM) was required to operate in four modes viz.,
        (i) Conventional mode,
        (ii) Secure mode,
        (iii) Jam-resistant mode and
        (iv) Secure + Jam-resistant mode. The INCOM set first time designed & developed by HAL in India was based on operational requirement. These sets operated satisfactorily for conventional mode. Currently, these systems are in use by various aircraft platforms of IAF.

        (b) An expenditure of Rs.10.14 crore was incurred on development of INCOM.

        (c) IAF accepted these sets in conventional mode to meet the urgent operational requirements to replace radio sets in many fleets.

        (d) & (e): IAF is proposing to replace the INCOM system with Software Defined Radio systems (SDRs) in a phased manner.

        Phase-1 of the programme is ongoing under a global RFP for which HAL is the integration partner for the acquisition planned from Rafael, Israel.

        For Phase-2, HAL has initiated design and development of indigenous SDR system which is presently under trials. These SDRs will be Jam-resistant with secure features.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
Thank you very much for that. Much appreciated.

Some years ago it was written in a blog that part of the reason the IAF was in a hurry to get Rafale is because with the retirement of the Flogger fleet, there arose an urgent requirement for a platform which could perform the low level strike role. Apperently, because they are derived from the Su-27 which was optimised for the high altitude interception role, the airframe of the MKIs were didn't have the tolerences needed for the low level terrain following strike role. Amother reason given is that Bars - being a non AESA radar - could not go on the low level terrain following mode whilst also scanning the skies for airborne threats.

Does this sound right?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Also, on Tejas.

What is your personal opinion? Will all the resources which have been poured into it really enable a single engine lightweight platform to performs all the roles as intended?
 
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