Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
We know Indian bureaucracy on defense planning create their own 'side projects' thus resulted on much decision delay. Something that if not careful will happen to Indonesian defense SOE. The model of Indian inefficient defense SOE already shown similarities taken by Indonesian defense SOE.

In such the big problem in overall Tejas project delay not only related to HAL inefficient process, but also to Indian politics insistence for Kaveri Turbofan engine. When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404. It take a lot of wrangling within Indian bureaucracy and Political circles to decide the mass production of Tejas Mk1a version still using GE404.

Indian Political circles now even has to swallow their nationalistic pride on taking GE414 for the next Tejas Mk2 for their indigenous MRCA program. This kind of nationalistic wrangling is different with PRC approach that doesn't shy away on taking/using Russian engine for time being until they can come out with their own reliable version for their J-10 as example.

India meantime spend times on try to salvage Kaveri for Tejas Mk1a, even talk with French on using Snecma core for Kaveri. Until they don't have choices to speed up Mk1a mass production schedule by still using imported GE404.
 

Bonplan

New Member

@Bonplan We have the requirement that posters provide a couple of lines of text explaining why they are posting the particular item. I have already suggested that you read the rules. Green ink posts from a Moderator are something that is in your best interests to follow.

Ngatimozart.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
@Bonplan, if you only want to put video without any comments from you. I suggest you put it on Videos thread. Don't put it on discussion thread like this one. The mods will not like it.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Welcome to Defencetalk.
Like Ananda already said, its maybe better if you add some text/comment/opinion/explanation to your video. It is not only the way we normally post, but this video is also in an not-understandable language without subtitles.

Thanks berfore!
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
At last.....India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Airbus Defence and Space on 24 September to buy 56 C295 MW medium transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to replace its legacy Avro 748M transport fleet.

On 1 November 1961, so almost 60 years ago, the first Indian-assembled HAL-748 made its first flight. By the end of production, HAL had completed 89 Indian-built aircraft, 72 of which were for the Indian Air Force.

The MoD declared in an official statement that the deal involves acquiring 16 C295s from Airbus in fly-away condition from Spain, while the remaining 40 aircraft will be built in partnership with the private-sector Tata consortium via a technology transfer.

So it seems there will be no cooperation with the state owned HAL.

 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's good that HAL have been left out of the loop. Tata should do a good job and the project delivered close to on time and near budget.
 

Adioz

New Member
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
What makes you think that HAL waited before ordering the engines? They placed the order merely 6 months after receiving the Tejas Mk1A order.


When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404.
Agree with the larger point of bureaucratic delays but the amount spent on Kaveri development is hardly enough. They spent somewhere around $280 Million on the development, if I remember correctly. That is not "pouring", rather its "sprinkling" compared to what market leaders like GE have put in year after year for decades.


2. I speculate that the Indian MOD is cutting out Russian influence at HAL by shutting down the Su-30MKI line totally (as HAL was the one that prevented a non-Russian foreign fighter from being made in India). The IAF’s current planned procurement is for a new fleet of 114 fighters (this follows the cancellation in 2015 of its 2007 tender for 126 MMRCA), and the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters as a stop-gap measure in 2016.

3. Short of numbers, the IAF has launched the procurement of 114 medium fighters in an exercise that closely mirrors the MMRCA tender.
  • With the USAF order of eight F-15EX in hand and the prospect of 72 more (as follow on American orders to come in 2021-2026), Boeing is going to be able to offer significant off-sets to Indian companies if they can win the 114 fighter tender — HAL will be left in the cold.

  • IMO, Boeing will offer the F-15EX to the IAF, while offering the block 3 Super Hornet to the Indian Navy (which is separately pursuing the acquisition of 57 carrier-deck fighters, to eventually replace their unreliable MiG-29Ks).
4. The US Navy uses the Block 3 Super Hornet and Growler as carrier-deck fighters. It is likely the line will be shutdown after the production of the last few block 3 Super Hornets (at most 36 more from FY 2022 to 2024). This will facilitate the ramp up of production for the F-35Cs from the current 12 a year (for both the US Navy and US Marines) and pay for development of Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter by the end of Biden’s term in office. A win of 57 with the Indian Navy will keep the Super Hornet line open for 3 to 4 more years.
Maybe, but I am willing to bet F-15EX will never see service in IAF for the sole reason that its too heavy an aircraft. IAF has clearly stated it needs Medium fighters. F-15EX is too beastly and the Su-30MKI already fulfills that role.

It would be beneficial to both the Indian Air Force and Navy if HAL was to be removed from the Indian military aviation scene. It's been a millstone around the neck of Indian military aviation for years and in fact the Indian Government should sell it off or disestablish it. It is a government department, is a typical Indian government bureaucracy and has no idea about working in the aviation market place. I dread to think how many hundreds of billions of US dollars that its incompetence and sheer bungling has cost the Indian government over the years.
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
Well HAL has all the characteristics of a government department, even though it's an SOE. The point is that the IAF are sick of the continual delays, cost overruns, and mediocre performance of HAL designed capabilities. It's negatively impacting upon their operational capability. How profitable is HAL? Is it actually profitable at all? Profit and loss are just one metric. Efficiency, reliable products, on time delivery at the contracted cost, capabilities that are at the least comparable to ones enemies best capabilities, are what should be designed and provided by the company. That it isn't doing.

It's had decades to sort all of this out and India isn't short on the talent or institutes of higher learning. If the Chinese achieved what they have done in their military aviation field, why hasn't India? Yes the Chinese cheated, but India has had the advantage that India have access to western educational, scientific, engineering and aviation facilities since 1947 and whilst India has struggled with domestic social problems, as well as external problems from the start, it has made staggering progress since. Unfortunately HAL smothered that.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
What makes you think that HAL waited before ordering the engines? They placed the order merely 6 months after receiving the Tejas Mk1A order.
You better read all the context before you go jumping-in on answering. Sandhi’s comment on the Indian (not just HAL) decision to order 99 GE404 (as video from Indian media shows). He was saying that India should have decided to use GE404 long time ago, rather than waiting for indigenous engine/Kaveri program (which until now basically halted, based on Indian Media reports).

They spent somewhere around $280 Million on the development, if I remember correctly. That is not "pouring", rather its "sprinkling" compared to what market leaders like GE have put in year after year for decades.
Do you have source that confirm it's only USD 280 Mio (better be official government sources) that being 'poured' on Kaveri ? Because I read also from Indian forums, which Indian members claim different numbers. Better read the forum rules where if you claim something has to be based on credible sources.

You can't also compare how much GE pouring on developing GE404 in early 70's cause it is not Apple to Apple with what an Indian Government Research Institution pouring to developing Kaveri much later on. The accounting calculation will be different for one thing, and USD to USD value comparison is much different between what US and India (different Purchasing Power scale) spend.
 
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Adioz

New Member
Well HAL has all the characteristics of a government department, even though it's an SOE.
Oh sweet summer child (GoT reference). If you think HAL is "like a government department", wait till you hear about the shenannigans of the infamous Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). In front of the likes of OFB, HAL appears like a saint. Though it ain't.

The point is that the IAF are sick of the continual delays, cost overruns, and mediocre performance of HAL designed capabilities. It's negatively impacting upon their operational capability.
Yes HAL QC issues are a pain in the a$$, especially when it comes to engines. There is a line I once saw written at an Indian Air Force station: "Poor maintenance is murder". Doesn't seem like HAL adheres to it strictly. And there have been programs like HJT Sitara which are FUBAR to the point of needing a redesign causing a decade's worth of delay. But its not like HAL is without positives either like LCH, LUH, HTT-40, HTSE-1200, HTFE-25, etc; along with the parts HAL supplies for India's space program. And most of these being recent programs hints at improvements in HAL's work culture maybe. But compare that to OFB and finding the positives of OFB is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

How profitable is HAL? Is it actually profitable at all? Profit and loss are just one metric. Efficiency, reliable products, on time delivery at the contracted cost, capabilities that are at the least comparable to ones enemies best capabilities, are what should be designed and provided by the company. That it isn't doing.
HAL is a profitable enterprise, but that could be largely due to it having a monopoly in Indian Aerospace. The recent defence reforms seem to have broken that monopoly. This is what has me excited about the future of Indian Defence Industry. Now these PSUs (not just HAL but almost all the PSUs) need to compete for contracts from the military and civilians. Although there is still some work left in regards to leveling the playing ground between private and public enterprises in India.
Lion's share of QC issues relating to HAL have to do with either MiG-21 or engines. Remove these two and the rest of HAL QC is satisfactory in most cases. Sticking to deadlines is something HAL does seem to struggle with at times. The capability of its products though, especially compared to China, aren't bad at all. And when I say "its products", I don't mean everything they manufacture but the products that they themselves design and manufacture.
Now compare that with what the OFB does and whatever you said about HAL applies on OFB 10 times over. Point is, in the Indian parlance, HAL is much better than a government department. I realize I am playing the devil's advocate here, but I am happy with the current direction of defence sector reforms. Scope for improvement is always there though. But lets see if HAL continues to be profitable 10-15 years from now. If it doesn't reform itself, it might get sold off next decade.


It's had decades to sort all of this out and India isn't short on the talent or institutes of higher learning. If the Chinese achieved what they have done in their military aviation field, why hasn't India? Yes the Chinese cheated, but India has had the advantage that India have access to western educational, scientific, engineering and aviation facilities since 1947 and whilst India has struggled with domestic social problems, as well as external problems from the start, it has made staggering progress since. Unfortunately HAL smothered that.
I am not going to pretend that HAL's monopoly has been good for Indian aerospace sector, it hasn't. Its a small part of what ailed Indian economy as a whole since Independence: License Raj. Indian economic growth has only lifted off after economic reforms started in early 1990s. Those reforms didn't spread in aerospace sector until very recently. But comparing Indian and Chinese aerospace industries is an apples to oranges comparison. It cannot be answered without going outside the scope of this thread and delving into geopolitics, domestic politics, global and local economic policies and trends, demographics, etc. So lets refrain from off-topic for now.

You better read all the context before you jumping on answering. Sandhi comment on Indian (not just HAL) decision to order 99 GE404 (as video from Indian media). When India should decide to used GE404 long time ago, rather than waiting for indigenous engine/Kaveri program (which until now still not progressing enough).
Maybe I am being thick, but I still don't understand it. I did read the context (though could have misunderstood it). If he is talking about Indian decision to de-link Kaveri program from Tejas, then that decision occurred back in 2008. What is there to suggest that "India" was waiting for Kaveri program to succeed after that? The decision to order the 99 GE-404 this year simply follows the larger Tejas Mk1A order which also got placed this year. Where is the delay?

Do you have source that confirm it's only USD 280 Mio (better be official government sources) that being 'poured' on Kaveri ? Because I read also from Indian forums, which Indian members claim different numbers. Better read the forum rules where if you claim something has to be based on credible sources.
Ofcourse. Here is the official source: https://cag.gov.in/webroot/uploads/...liance_Defence_Air_Force_and_Navy_16_2010.pdf
Pardon me for a lose currency conversion.

You can't also compare how much GE pouring on developing GE404 in early 70's cause it is not Apple to Apple with what an Indian Government Research Institution pouring to developing Kaveri much later on. The accounting calculation will be different for one thing, and USD to USD value comparison is much different between what US and India (different Purchasing Power scale) spend.
Agreed. Catch-up growth is always faster. GE didn't have nearly the same kind of CFD and FEA toolkit that GTRE had its disposal, thanks to advancements in computational mechanics and computers themselves. I am merely pointing out the fact that developing an engine equivalent to GE-404 can't be done on the peanuts that GTRE's budget is. Maybe I chose the wrong example, should have chosen the Chinese one instead.
 
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