Flanker Export Thread
- Thread starter Haavarla
- Start date
Not if the Royal Malaysian Air Force [RMAF] has a say in it as it has never been really keen on Russian made fighters. Both the Fulcrums and Flankers were political decisions, forced on the RMAF by the government. The main reason the Fulcrums were bought in 1993 was because of its price, a barter deal which the Russians accepted and the prospect of developing greater economic ties with Russia. The Flanker deal was also very political, as the Russians offered an offset package and a slot in their space programme for a Malaysian to go into space..... The RMAF's main preference remains the Super Hornet.
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Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #84
That might be true..
But if a new offer from Sukhoi/IAPO are given, a real generous one.
Like a aka 'Super MKI' offer to a sweet price.
Or a total package with some Yak-130 and/or MS-21 airliner.
http://www.irkut.com/en/news/press_release_archives/index.php?id48=466
Nothing is carved in the stone as of yet.
Let wait and see.
But if a new offer from Sukhoi/IAPO are given, a real generous one.
Like a aka 'Super MKI' offer to a sweet price.
Or a total package with some Yak-130 and/or MS-21 airliner.
http://www.irkut.com/en/news/press_release_archives/index.php?id48=466
Nothing is carved in the stone as of yet.
Let wait and see.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The issue as I see if, for the RMAF at least, is that they are looking to align themselves with US/US-allied air forces doctrine and conops. Having Russian made fighters can cause problems with what seems to be the desired levels of interoperability both within the RMAF and with the RMAF interacting with friendly and allied air forces. Of course the Russian aircraft could be kitted out with non-Russian avionics and datalinks, but to do so increases the price and there are only a few countries with experience doing such work.
A case in point, the RMAF appears to have been shopping around for some for of AEW to increase the SA beyond what Malaysia has been able to accomplish with ground-based radar stations. It appears that vendors have offered various suggestions, with a Lockheed C-130 variant fitted with AEW radar and stations, NG E-2D Hawkeye, a proposed C-295 AEW and a Saab/Embraer offer mounting the Erieye aboard a RJ-145.
If the RMAF were to make such a purchase, then unless any follow-on fighters are capable of receiving info from such valuable ISR assets, it would mean that Malaysia largely wasted money and capabilies.
-Cheers
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
There is a rather significant difference between India and Malaysia in terms of defence, industry and technology. India is looking for significant TOT and/or co-development of a number of solutions, amongst them being able to get different pieces of kit to talk to each other. Plus there is an entire economy of scale issue where India is able to do things in numbers which Malaysia cannot.Um.. like IAF P-8 and A-50I
I don't think this will be a huge problem for Malaysia though.
Now if there Russia was also offering an AEW capability using the A-50 or similar, along with robust datalinks to utilize along with MPA aircraft, the situation would be a bit different. Whether Government will care of not is another story.
-Cheers
The A-50I has an Israeli radar, and god knows what, for innards. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much easier to equip the A-50I with something compatible then the A-50U.Um.. like IAF P-8 and A-50I
I don't think this will be a huge problem for Malaysia though.
It would increase the price, but given the extremely competitive prices of Russian fighters, I wonder if this price increase would even matter much? Is it really the price that would decide the issue, or the time it would take (given that the AEW capability, has yet to be chosen, nevermind physically acquired, the same goes for the fighters).
This is typical of the way Russia likes to do business. I would not be surprised if they offered similar incentives attached to a new MKM deal.
The integration of systems is always the killer - not the tech set. The two most likely countries to do it are the Israelis and the French - and option 1 is gone straight away.
The reality is that option 2 might not get access to all of the US capability, much the same as US companies would get access to French tech sets.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I was being a bit more circumspect, but as GF mentioned, the two countries with expertise in adapting Western kit to Russia aircraft are Israel and France, Israel having provided significant help to India for some of their systems. For several reasons, Israeli aid or equipment is not an option for the RMAF. If it were, I would have expected a modified G550 with conformal Elta radar arrays to also have been on offer for the RMAF AEW.
While the platform price increase due to the adaptation might not be significant due to the potentially low price of the green airframe fighters, the platform price alone is not the only consideration. There is the time required to successfully make such modifications or design and install them into green airframes. There is also a significant amount of risk in doing such modification and design work, ranging from full programme failure down to very delayed IOC, with the potential for partial programme failure in between. Hence the importance of having some degree of expertise working on such modifications.
As for the AEW not having been selected yet that is not particularly significant IMO. Two of those on offer are already in operation and datalink capable, including Link 11 and Link 16. The Lockheed offering sounds like work that had been done on the EC-130E for the USCG where an APS-145 (radar used on the E-2 Hawkeye) was mounted onto a Hercules. From what I understand, Lockheed has developed and modular control system for such radar arrays, possibly as a developmental outgrowth from the modular MPS Lockheed developed for the HC-144 Ocean Sentry for the USCG. The one I am not certain of is the EADS offering of an AEW configured C-295 variant, but this is largely due to me just not having heard of it previously. Given the European exposure to AEW systems and datalinks, I am confident that any such offering would be compatible with and provide such capabilities.
The question would then still remain, if the RMAF does get such a system, would a future fighter purchase then be able to make use of an AEW or not? And if not, what could realistically be done to enable to the fighters to make use of it?
-Cheers
Malaysia does not recognise the state of Isreal. With the domestic politics of Malaysia, there is no chance of that happening, so let's not speculate further.
With that, shall we come back to the thread topic? Many thanks.
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Here's the question then, could they for an MKM deal of some sort with Israeli avionics, if the contract with Israel was signed between IAPO and Israeli firms, with Malaysia only having to deal with IAPO?
The Indian MKI had Israeli avionics, but for the MKM, IIRC the Malaysians put in French and S. African avionics and radar warning systems. IMHO, for the Malaysians, it can't just be IAPO white labeling an Isreali made product or sub-system. So the answer still remains a firm, NO.
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Not sure if the Russians have made such an offer [an offer for Backfires was made at LIMA 1999!] but there is no intention of seeking such a capability from the Russians.
It has already long adopted a Western style approach, in terms of doctrine, organisation and numbers of hours flown. From the 1970's onwards after it received RAAF training for it's ex-RAAF Sabres and after it received F-5Es,Fs and RF-5Es, the air arm the RMAF was most influenced by was the USAF. Foreign air arms the RMAF trains the most regularly with are the RAAF [FPDA] and the USAF [ the annual CARAT and Cope Taufan/Air Warrior].
The main problem faced with the Fulcrums was the lower MTBO of the engines [which had their lives slightly extended before delivery] and other flight components, plus initial problems faced in getting spares, which was later resolved. As for the MKMs, integration issues, which also were faced by the IAF, was the main problem. The RMAF doesn't have much complains with its Fulcrums and Flankers, in terms of actual performance/capabilities.
The main problem here is cash as the RMAF has a long shopping list - additional Cougars, additional ground based radars, additional LIFTs, an upgrade for the C-130s and Nuris - and the government is reluctant to approve any more big tickets items until the next elections. Cash has also been allocated and a contract signed for a Hornet upgrade, which will include Navflir pods, Sidewinder Xs, JHMCS and software upgrades.
At one time, the main contender was believed to be the Eriye, due to its price tag. SAAB has also offered a Gripen/Eriye package, similiar to what was accepted by the RTAF, but the Gripen isn't seen as a likely contender anymore. Unless additional funds are approved, I can't see the RMAF eventually ending up with any other AEW aircraft than the Erye.
According to a Malaysian defence journalist, the Russians were complaining that their profit margins were very low due to the integration of non-Russian gear on the MKMs. My opinion is that unless there is no alternative, is it is pointless spending cash on integration for Western sourced avionics when other fighters that are on offer have already been integrated with everything that would possibly be needed by the RMAF. The Super Hornet, for which all integration has already been done and paid for by Uncle Sam, is a good example.
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As OPSSG has pointed out the Malays are quite firm in not having anything that is associated with Israel.
Zip, Zero, Nada chance.
It would be quite spectacular, albeit pure speculation, if the French were chosen (in place of Israel) for the A-100 project (the next-gen AEW for the VVS currently in the design stage). It would not only offer increased interoperability with NATO standard equipment (including for the VVS itself), but also make Flanker sales to countries that are looking for the whole package, not just the planes, much more attractive.
Air Force Brat
Member
I would have to agree with gf0012, that won't fly in Malay, I do find it fascinating to consider the dissimular aircraft combat training offered by the sukois, and strangely enough a private civilian outfit about a hundred miles up the road has at least two mig-29s, one of which first flew here in central Illinois last december, I found out later that another civilian outfit if Rockford, Illinois had two Flankers, but they may have sold them as they where being offered for private sale. The Mig-29 belonged to an outfit called Red Air, which had purchased them from one of the former Soviet Republics. I examined the one called "Natasha" about 5 or 6 years ago and was rather astonished at the rather forlorn condition of the aircraft which at that time wasn't airworthy. They have changed their name to Air USA, and offer the Alpha Jet, L-59, and a least one of the Mig-29s. If anyone would be interested in more information, I would be happy to contact them to enquire about a visit, as I would love an excuse to see "Natasha" now that she is airworthy. One my last visit they were very friendly and all to happy to show their aircraft. There is no mention on their current websight of the Mig-21 which was also a two seat version, and which one of the guys offered me a back seat. I rather doubted he was serious, in any regard knowing the Migs flight characteristics I'm not sure I would have the stones, regards the Brat.:fly