John Fedup
The Bunker Group
That’s certainly the case in my country!
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
This article Availability rate of NH-90 Cayman helicopters remains 'particularly worrying' - Military Zone (opex360.com) - it's in French, Google translate handles it well, except for the part about the hovercaft was full of eels. I thought this quote, about availability for the French Army and Navy fleets was damning:
'In 2018, the availability rate of NH-90 TTH of ALT was 30.4% while that of NH-90 NFH reached 35.5%'.
'In 2018, the availability rate of NH-90 TTH of ALT was 30.4% while that of NH-90 NFH reached 35.5%'.
the road runner
Active Member
I am curious what happens when Availability rates drop below specified contractual agreements? Anyone?
Does the contractor just get away with murder and bag loads of money while they wipe their hands of any wrong doing and leaving the operator with a dud? NH-90 really is sounding like a waste of treasure at this point...
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Not sure if you will get a straight answer the details of a lot of these agreement are secret for many reasons (commercial, government and defence).
Typically they involve penalties, many of the build contract have companies paying penalties. We got a free NH90 because of the underperformance on the delivery. There is often some sort of negotiation, about what can be done about rectification and some sort of timeline and milestones along the way.
Clearly defence is over it. The NH90 and the Tigers have been pretty disappointing all over. At some point you have to cut your losses, and admit it isn't probably going to achieve the levels you want and there are better options out there.
With both, savings start coming in when you switch to the new platforms, we have already had these burdens for a decade. They got some use, they have clear idea of all the issues and given the manufacturer more than adequate time to attempt to address them, if they could fix them. That hasn't happened, after all this, they are still disappointing platforms. Not just for Australia, other countries are disappointed too. Germans, the Dutch, etc.
Getting rid of two whole fleets, and losing an operator is pretty huge. Australia hopefully will have some get out clauses that allow them to dispose of them painlessly. Airbus will then likely need to work out what to do with them.
Its also the right time to ditch them. There are new generation of helicopters, the UH-60V for example.
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FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
30 SP howitzers and 15 armored ammunition carriers officially ordered
Construction of a new Hanwha production facility, in Greater Geelong, Victoria to begin in 2nd Qtr 2022.
Production of vehicles to begin in 4th Qtr 2024.
I don't know, building a whole new facility for 45 vehicles seems a bit expensive, in capital and time, to me.
Construction of a new Hanwha production facility, in Greater Geelong, Victoria to begin in 2nd Qtr 2022.
Production of vehicles to begin in 4th Qtr 2024.
I don't know, building a whole new facility for 45 vehicles seems a bit expensive, in capital and time, to me.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
A follow up order for similar numbers is expected later in the Decade and if Hanwha wins the Land 400 Phase 111 IFV contract up to 450 AS-21 Redback IFVs will be built there. But yes if it stops at 45 then it could get expensive.
Yes I find it somewhat extravagant building a manufacturing facility for just 45 vehicles. Unless Hanwa intend using it for further export orders.
I think there are a couple of things at play here. Firstly, let's not forget we are in unofficial election mode in Australia. The elecorates in and around the Geelong area have been traditionally hard fought over. An official promise of employment and other economic benefits to the region will be welcome in a region that has had its share of economic knocks over the years. Secondly, an official announcement of a significant spend on military equipment from South Korea is an important message, both symbolically and materially, that Australia no longer just sees the U.S, the U.K and Europe as the major suppliers of military equipment for its armed forces. It shows that further engagement with 'friends' in Asia is actual, and not just words in a policy statement. It is a recognition of the changing nature of security in the Indo Pacific region, and the very real need to firm up relationships with friends and allies in the region. From my perspective, it is relatively small beginnings for a hopefully far greater engagement with South Korea through Hanwa's bid in Land 400 , phase 3. Other nations in Asia will recognise the significance of Australia's move. l think it is an important first step.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
This is the first phase, budget of up to $1.3b.
The second phase has a budget of up to $2.3b.
It’s been widely reported previously that the fleet will likely double, eg, potentially 60 AS9 and 30 AS10.
No doubt Hanwha is banking on the AS21 Redback winning the IFV competition.
I had read a while ago that South Korea was looking to either replace the K21 or add to the K21 fleet, AS21 would be a likely candidate, which should mean manufacturing opportunities here in Oz for that project.
IMO, the manufacturing facility allows Hanwha to negate Rheinmetall's advantage (MILVEHCOE, Ipswich, QLD) in the local manufacturing criterion. This will aid them in the Land 400 Phase 3 competition.
Military Vehicle Centre of Excellence (MILVEHCOE) | State Development, Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning
Military Vehicle Centre of Excellence (MILVEHCOE) | State Development, Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning
If those numbers are correct, 60 SPGs, then we are looking at a major expansion of the Army.
Add to that the shore based Anti ship missiles battery's, HIMARs, Nassams, potentially a patriot type system, the Arty alone is going to eat up a heap of man power.
We would be looking at at least another full brigade, probably more.
Are we moving into mobilisation mode?
Gryphinator
Active Member
I've seen in the last year that 7Bde have been asking for ex digs to come back on a casual basis. It was specifically RAAC guys they were after. Something is up for sure....
buffy9
Well-Known Member
On the artillery side of the house, I believe the plan is still to raise the fires brigade on top of the artillery regiments located within the combat brigades and the STA batteries within the new aviation command. No source unfortunately...
To save manning in the long-term I think it would be best to replace the M777s entirely with the SPGs - rather than attempting to raise a new artillery regiment on top of a need for more air defenders and drone operators as the new stuff comes online over the next decade and a half. More guns is always good - but they aren't economical if they can't be covered with air defence or can't move quickly enough to escape enemy fires. This is without mentioning rocket artillery (with distant potential for a regiment's worth), the LBASM or high-speed missile defence, should it emerge different to the medium-range AD. Loitering munitions might also complicate the artillery/fires space as time goes on.
Or, alternatively, use the six batteries of SPGs (two regiments worth) to replace six M777 batteries - leaving one bty in each gun regiment to support the motorised battalions. Then leave fires brigade to handle the long-range fires and air defence, which can be allocated as necessary.
Modern Anzacs: Defence News (australiandefender.com.au) (in re. to fires brigade)
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I imagine it would be the latest and greatest, commonwealth isn't cutting corners to save bucks at the cost of capability.
www.australiandefence.com.au
Seems like a lot of artillery.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Hanwha facility allows various other south Korean stuff to be made here.
Its in SK interest to have a manufacturing supply line for their equipment, located outside of SK. Anything within SK is likely to be a target pretty quickly in a conflict, manufacturing, spares and logistics warehouses will be heavily targeted.
The South Koreans make a lot of stuff.
Huntsman – Australia’s lethal arachnid - Australian Defence Magazine
The government is currently evaluating a proposal from Hanwha Defense Australia, under a sole-source tender mechanism, for a locally-built variant of its successful 155mm, 52 calibre K9 Thunder SPH, t...
www.australiandefence.com.au
I wouldn't be surprised if the Hanwha facility allows various other south Korean stuff to be made here.
Its in SK interest to have a manufacturing supply line for their equipment, located outside of SK. Anything within SK is likely to be a target pretty quickly in a conflict, manufacturing, spares and logistics warehouses will be heavily targeted.
The South Koreans make a lot of stuff.
I'm certain that if you go back through the thread, one of Hanwa's offers/sweeteners was to integrate the new facility into their logistics system as a supplier to all users. We seem to be consciously positioning ourselves as a proper partner within Asia-Pacific rather than a mere customer. Even if Hanwa owns the facility, it gives more weight to the relationship for both countries.
Clearly there's an eye to getting the IFV contract too, but then if that happens the facility will certainly be needed.
oldsig
(Edit..@StingrayOZ, sorry same point as yours. Perils of slow one finger typing over breakfast)
Just a reminder that the UH70L offered for original AIR 9000 had the same T701A engines that the existing Blackhawk ADF fleet had. The T701A powered Blackhawks were underpowered to carry a section in Afghanistan so ADF used Chinooks instead. It is only in recent years that Blackhawks have been powered with T701Ds (as are the prospective AH-64Es) with enough power to operate safely hot and high as we may need to do in SE Asia. The NH-90s selected had the RTM 322 engines that could carry a section in those conditions.
Lolcake
Active Member
HIMARS with future precision munitions and up to 60 AS9 would be an absolute gamechanger. This really is amazing news.I imagine it would be the latest and greatest, commonwealth isn't cutting corners to save bucks at the cost of capability.
Seems like a lot of artillery.Huntsman – Australia’s lethal arachnid - Australian Defence Magazine
The government is currently evaluating a proposal from Hanwha Defense Australia, under a sole-source tender mechanism, for a locally-built variant of its successful 155mm, 52 calibre K9 Thunder SPH, t...
I wouldn't be surprised if the Hanwha facility allows various other south Korean stuff to be made here.
Its in SK interest to have a manufacturing supply line for their equipment, located outside of SK. Anything within SK is likely to be a target pretty quickly in a conflict, manufacturing, spares and logistics warehouses will be heavily targeted.
The South Koreans make a lot of stuff.
Looking forward to the Patriot GBAD annoucement soon. Would never have imagined we would be getting all this gear back in 07. The nuclear subs are indeed the cherry on top. Really have come quite far from the days where the Leopard AS1s and the M113s being the backbone of our mechanised force.
Only shame was the F-111's not really being replaced as there is no modern day equivalent. We really havent found a true replacement for it. But i guess we dont need them anymore if we get Virginia's/astutes with Hypersonic missiles/Tomahawks
One of the major factors in the original decision….
Interesting the article posted by Lolcake indicates the M777s will be retained. Huntsman – Australia’s lethal arachnid - Australian Defence Magazine
Defence says the 155mm, 39 calibre M777A2 will remain “an important capability” for the ADF in support of light and air-mobile forces (the 155mm gun can be airlifted aboard RAAF C-130J-30 Hercules transports and as an underslung load by Army’s CH-47F Chinook helicopters), while the Protected Mobile Fires capability will support Army’s armoured vehicles. Army is also currently considering its future organisational structures and location options to accommodate the Protected Mobile Fires capability and has made no decisions at this point in time.
“Protected Mobile Fires will be the ADF’s primary 155mm artillery system, complemented by the current M777A2 Lightweight Towed Howitzer, significantly enhancing the ADF’s indirect fires capability,” the spokesperson summed up. “The system seeks to address a known capability gap that has existed since the cancellation of the Self-Propelled Howitzer Land 17 Phase 1C project in 2012.”
Defence says the 155mm, 39 calibre M777A2 will remain “an important capability” for the ADF in support of light and air-mobile forces (the 155mm gun can be airlifted aboard RAAF C-130J-30 Hercules transports and as an underslung load by Army’s CH-47F Chinook helicopters), while the Protected Mobile Fires capability will support Army’s armoured vehicles. Army is also currently considering its future organisational structures and location options to accommodate the Protected Mobile Fires capability and has made no decisions at this point in time.
“Protected Mobile Fires will be the ADF’s primary 155mm artillery system, complemented by the current M777A2 Lightweight Towed Howitzer, significantly enhancing the ADF’s indirect fires capability,” the spokesperson summed up. “The system seeks to address a known capability gap that has existed since the cancellation of the Self-Propelled Howitzer Land 17 Phase 1C project in 2012.”