Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Unfortunately sad news for the Army today with reports of a young Soldier who collapsed on exercise on Mar 8 passing away.

RIP Digger
5 RAR have lost 2 in a month. I remember my 1st ex in Darwin (8/12 Mdm Regt) they sent JNCO's out within 3 days of marching in, many from "down south" for a team building exercise.
A dozen or so went down with heat by teatime.
The post-ex debrief was everyone who went down with heat had to explain why they did. Worst case of bastardisation I ever saw and down right lack of common sense. Many were not acclimatised and had spent the summer on leave.
More recently an OC of 8/9 allegedly refused ambulances being called for diggers going down with heat at Canungra.
CFA's are not Paramedics....
 

cdxbow

Active Member
I think I may have mentioned some years ago in these forums that I am a relative of Bill Doolan, sometimes known as 'Driver Doolan' see VX35406 DRIVER WILLIAM THOMAS DOOLAN, 2/21ST INFANTRY BATTALION, WHICH FORMED PART OF GULL FORCE, ... | Australian War Memorial (awm.gov.au) and Submarine Matters: Song of Bill Doolan's Last Stand, Gull Force, Ambon, WWII, 1942 (gentleseas.blogspot.com) and that for a number of reasons his sacrifice was never formally recognised by the army despite his daughter, Wendy's attempt to get some recognition. I received an email from her yesterday:

" I was able to your give your father he good news that my late father Bill Doolan, has just been awarded a Medal of Gallantry, to be presented at Government House on 20th April My father was killed in Ambon, Feb. 1942, holding back the Japanese, so his comrades could escape. This Award has taken 79 years to come to fruition !"

For Wendy this is really important but it's been very disappointing it's taken 79 years. There was certainly some very strong resistance to giving him any recognition, now finally corrected. Sometimes takes a while for the CoA to do the right thing.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think I may have mentioned some years ago in these forums that I am a relative of Bill Doolan, sometimes known as 'Driver Doolan' see VX35406 DRIVER WILLIAM THOMAS DOOLAN, 2/21ST INFANTRY BATTALION, WHICH FORMED PART OF GULL FORCE, ... | Australian War Memorial (awm.gov.au) and Submarine Matters: Song of Bill Doolan's Last Stand, Gull Force, Ambon, WWII, 1942 (gentleseas.blogspot.com) and that for a number of reasons his sacrifice was never formally recognised by the army despite his daughter, Wendy's attempt to get some recognition. I received an email from her yesterday:

" I was able to your give your father he good news that my late father Bill Doolan, has just been awarded a Medal of Gallantry, to be presented at Government House on 20th April My father was killed in Ambon, Feb. 1942, holding back the Japanese, so his comrades could escape. This Award has taken 79 years to come to fruition !"

For Wendy this is really important but it's been very disappointing it's taken 79 years. There was certainly some very strong resistance to giving him any recognition, now finally corrected. Sometimes takes a while for the CoA to do the right thing.
That's bloody brilliant and well overdue. IMHO what he did was worthy of a VC. Well done Wendy for fighting the good fight for her dad.

E kore rātou e kaumātuatia
Pēnei i a tātou kua mahue nei
E kore hoki rātou e ngoikore
Ahakoa pehea i ngā āhuatanga o te wā
I te hekenga atu o te rā
Tae noa ki te aranga mai i te ata
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them
We will remember them.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
5 RAR have lost 2 in a month. I remember my 1st ex in Darwin (8/12 Mdm Regt) they sent JNCO's out within 3 days of marching in, many from "down south" for a team building exercise.
A dozen or so went down with heat by teatime.
The post-ex debrief was everyone who went down with heat had to explain why they did. Worst case of bastardisation I ever saw and down right lack of common sense. Many were not acclimatised and had spent the summer on leave.
More recently an OC of 8/9 allegedly refused ambulances being called for diggers going down with heat at Canungra.
CFA's are not Paramedics....
Seriously? Explain then why 3RAR could take off from RAAF Richmond, jump into FNQ a few hours later, force March into Tully and complete jungle training without heat exhaustion? So many examples. Rapid deployment troops may not have the luxury of climatization. It’s not ideal, but defence is definitely suffering WH&S and PC in this modern stupid world.
 
Seriously? Explain then why 3RAR could take off from RAAF Richmond, jump into FNQ a few hours later, force March into Tully and complete jungle training without heat exhaustion? So many examples. Rapid deployment troops may not have the luxury of climatization. It’s not ideal, but defence is definitely suffering WH&S and PC in this modern stupid world.
Seriously, guys die from heat. I'll take your word for it no one went down with heat. In my example, these diggers were not in an online regt on 24 hrs notice to move. I'll add that this happened in 2002. I'll also wager your jump wasn't in the wet season after a month off either.
Ill also ask you to not disrespect these 5RAR diggers anymore with how much better you were or how defence has gone soft please...
Cheers
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Dry or wet? Noting it is the build down from the wet up there at the moment; and the difference in the conditions between the two is vast.
March is the hottest month of the year although this year hasn’t been too bad, lotsa rain.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Dry or wet? Noting it is the build down from the wet up there at the moment; and the difference in the conditions between the two is vast.
Kangaroo 92 was in the build up in November 1992, and I have lived in Darwin since 1999, am fairly familiar with the weather here. Rotations to RCB Malaysia have been going 12 months a year since the 1960’s.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Seriously, guys die from heat. I'll take your word for it no one went down with heat. In my example, these diggers were not in an online regt on 24 hrs notice to move. I'll add that this happened in 2002. I'll also wager your jump wasn't in the wet season after a month off either.
Ill also ask you to not disrespect these 5RAR diggers anymore with how much better you were or how defence has gone soft please...
Cheers
It’s not about how much better we were, but is about how defence has gone soft 100%, as has society in general. You can disagree all you want, but defence has gone soft, a general refelection of society and social engineering. I work in an industry where about 50% are Army, mainly from 5 RAR but also from 8/12, 2 CAV and lots of reps from other units. This includes 2 ex officers, also Navy and RAAF . All would agree that defence has gone soft. Plenty of them are recent discharges.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’ll add another late note to the above.
I know soldiers die from heat. I have suffered heat exhaustion very recently while prospecting here, lucky for me I treated myself and also lucky I had a life straw to drink from a flood plain.
Soldiers today ask forced to do route marches wearing a helmet, which is just stupid. A forced March is moving quickly on foot from point A to B. If you are marching quickly on foot, in columns, you could safely say you are in a semi safe area, otherwise you would be moving tactically, patrolling. You don’t patrol at 5kph. Also body armour etc is worn where we didn’t even have it.
Last point.
Due to the PC and WH&S standards today, Army are not preparing their soldiers to be mentally tough enough. This is being investigated as a possible reason for a rise in PTSD as well. The environment today’s soldiers are asked to work in is frustrating for them. I am referring to their work environment not their physical location. They have to consider things we never had to worry about.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I could be wrong but I get the impression that in defence these days there is more talk about OH&S, inclusion, diversity, fairness etc. but actually less common sense and compliance. I have encountered quite a few (mostly army and navy) who are stupidly gung ho and do stuff that would have had them torn a new one in the 90s.

There almost seems to be a level of pride in being able to circumvent policy in regards to looking after people, i.e. completely screwing over someone, applying a horrendous level of covert harassment , setting them up to fail, then calmly saying "Are you ok" or if they have done a really good job on them "are you thinking of killing yourself". Current serving and ex junior officers and NCOs often seem to be the worst, lacking the maturity, experience, compassion and common sense that older more senior individuals (and ironically some of the much younger newer people) have.

In the early 90s we still had some Vietnam vets training us, one was even a former RSM of the SASR, there were also regular cadre staff, most from 3 RAR but also some other battalions. They were across heat exhaustion and heat stroke, as well as hypothermia, they watched and looked after their troops, and made sure they watched and looked after each other. These days from what I've seen is its more vicious and selfish, more back stabbing, and favouritism. They don't look after each other and sadly too many junior officers and junior leaders are willing and ready to throw their troops under the bus.

These days they say but don't do the right things, where as previously, more often than not, they did the right things without making a big deal about it. Not saying the old days were perfect but that I'd rather work with or for, as well as trust, someone old school than many of the new generation of so called leaders.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
New DTR is out. Interesting Q&A section on the L400 Ph3 contenders:

6 versus 8 dismounts.
A deal breaker or just a nice to have?
If the Redback has more internal volume, this may help future proof reconfigurations in a vehicle class that should be around for a few decades.
A lot to consider in the final decision for sure, but flexibility should count for something!


Regards S
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
6 versus 8 dismounts.
A deal breaker or just a nice to have?
If the Redback has more internal volume, this may help future proof reconfigurations in a vehicle class that should be around for a few decades.
A lot to consider in the final decision for sure, but flexibility should count for something!


Regards S
AFAIK the requirement was for 6. As for the AS21, I will leave it to the experts to judge whether this would actually accommodate 8 fully kitted out troops and their gear practically speaking (looks tight to me?)



 

buffy9

Active Member
6 versus 8 dismounts.
A deal breaker or just a nice to have?
If the Redback has more internal volume, this may help future proof reconfigurations in a vehicle class that should be around for a few decades.
A lot to consider in the final decision for sure, but flexibility should count for something!


Regards S
I always thought the more dismounts the better, but in this case it doesn't conform to the current section size present within the battalions (9 now, up from 8 under Beersheba). Any increase in related section size may require an increase in battalion size?

IIRC the current APCs and PMVs are each crewed by two members of the section with the remaining seven acting as dismounts. With the IFV this would be altered to three crew and six dismounts. If the Redback is chosen and all eight seats are filled with the crew still being derived from the section, then we are looking at 11 man sections.

If the section is engaged in activities that require small unit tactics and where casualties are more likely (jungle or urban warfare) then I can see the need for the increased section size or increased number of dismounts. The added fire support and mobility offered by these vehicles may also be less of an advantage - cover and concealment being in far greater supply, with terrain (buildings or jungle) serving to constrain movement to set paths, which could serve as funnels.

But this is without considering the other advantages an IFV has in a myriad of other environments and settings. AFVs have been effectively utilised in many recent urban engagements - from Marawi to Fallujah, Mosul and Raqqa. Tracked vehicles may also have a mobility advantage in the difficult terrain present in or getting to these areas (trenches aimed at stopping wheeled vehicles come to mind).

Edit: It is also perhaps worth considering that, with an IFV in support of the section, the need for one brick to support the other in fire and movement becomes less relevant (as was a part of Beersheba). APCs and PMVs were never designed to take part in the fighting - with tanks expected to provide infantry support. However a tank could only cover so many targets and areas at once - meaning to some degree a section may need to support itself with one brick laying covering fire and the other moving.

With an IFV in support of the section this is less of an issue - with a dedicated GPMG, 30mm autocannon and potentially a HMG/AGL providing support to both bricks.

If Army chooses to go with the Redback it would logically have the choice to go with the eight seat option or to downsize to six seats.* The former would provide additional room for attached personnel or larger sections (32 dismounts vs 24 in a platoon), though increasing section size would significantly increase the size of the infantry battalions and would de-standardise it from the PMV battalions.** On the other hand, the current six dismounts would conform with the current section size - with the overall firepower, mobility and protection offered by the IFVs being worth the conversion of one dismount into a crew member.

* Which would then be a case of seeing how modular the Redback is during the RMA.

** On the potential de-standardisation, I am sure this would occur regardless once conversion to IFVs begins in earnest. Three man crews operating an AFV is substantially different than operating a battle wagon like the PMV.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
AFAIK the requirement was for 6. As for the AS21, I will leave it to the experts to judge whether this would actually accommodate 8 fully kitted out troops and their gear practically speaking (looks tight to me?)



Good Pic

Sporting the new urban Camouflaged Patten for blended Stealth City warfare I see

I wonder if it will catch on? ;)


Regards S
 

Navor86

Member
I got a question regarding DFSW platoon. According to lwd 3-3-7 the DFSW consists of 3 sections. Light role Bn should in theory have a Manoeuvre support section of 12 men. Here is a quote from a wbsite called battle order
On paper, the light role Rifle Platoon should have an integral 12-man Manoeuvre Support Section, made up of 3 teams of 4 men each serving a MAG58 general-purpose machine gun. This was intended to be implemented under the Infantry 2012 changes as of 2008 and would theoretically give a light role platoon commander (not mechanized) 3 MAG58 machine guns and a mix of Carl Gustavs and more under-barrel grenade launchers. Each team would consist of 1 Team Leader (one of which is the Section Commander) with an EF88, 1 Gunner with a MAG58, 1 Grenadier with an EF88 and ML40 (and Carl Gustav recoilless rifle if the mission dictates) and 1 Sharpshooter with an HK417 designated marksman rifle. In reality however, these sections are a part of the DFSW (direct fire support weapon) Platoon of the infantry battalion's Support Company. They are tasked out to the Rifle Companies/Rifle Platoons at the battalion commander's discretion to bolster the strength of units expected to come into heavy contact.
So here is my question does that mean that the DSFW has 3 sections of " heavy" weapons( Javelin, AGL, HMG) and 3 MSS for the light role platoons, effectively making it a small company?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I got a question regarding DFSW platoon. According to lwd 3-3-7 the DFSW consists of 3 sections. Light role Bn should in theory have a Manoeuvre support section of 12 men. Here is a quote from a wbsite called battle order

So here is my question does that mean that the DSFW has 3 sections of " heavy" weapons( Javelin, AGL, HMG) and 3 MSS for the light role platoons, effectively making it a small company?
That website seems both out of date and wrong.

Under the old organisation, each infantry platoon did have its own manoeuvre support section, however they had nothing to do with DFSW platoon that was part of support company. They belonged to the platoon commander, although they could be grouped at company level to create a manoeuvre support platoon if the mission dictated.

Under the new organisation (which looks suspiciously similar to the old old organisation), the platoons have lost their manoeuvre support sections, with there being just one at company level again. DFSW platoon still exists unchanged as part of support company.
 
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