Australian Army Discussions and Updates

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And it sounds remarkably like the UK situation with regard to Iraq - the IHAT witchhunt - where it became obvious that the ambulance chasers were actually paying locals to provide "testimony" as to the "atrocities" committed by British forces. That resulted in ruined reputations and careers, and some suicides; and after many years of angst to I think two convictions out of the hundreds or possibly thousands who were originally put under scrutiny. And that of the left wing press, including the BBC, was brutal. As an aside, if you want to raise your blood pressure, read the wikipedia article about IHAT and note the alleged comments of the copper who is supposedly (in substance) said "we know they were guilty", or go back and read the self serving leader articles that were published at the time the real story came out.....

I wonder if the recently announced Royal Commission into suicides in the ADF will look at in what way (if any, to be fair) Government, Opposition or Press statements or articles have contributed to Veteran suicides. Somehow, I doubt it.

As I think (and hope) I said at the time, can't remember, must be senility, the Inquiry described a number of alleged incidents with varying degrees of evidence to support them; and with a burden of proof that was nowhere near "beyond reasonable" doubt. That is the function of courts to determine if and when are any actual charges are laid. Until such time as the courts convict somebody, if they do, everybody is entitled to the presumption of innocence. And, WRT the commendation, group punishment (which is what the withdrawal was, effectively) is not legal either in Australian law generally or in the Defence Force Discipline Act in particular.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Johnny Mercer, the UK Veterans affairs secretary actually quit over the recent apparent decision to exclude NI veterans from the prosecution time limit for allegations relating to war crimes. Rare man of character. I think as a society we need to look more closely at the stresses and strains of combat and stop trying to judge things on the basis of a road traffic accident. I'm not saying redo My Lai every other Sunday but at least require a reasonable burden of proof.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think something that is over looked in these matters is the effect of coercion, fear, and knowledge of the consequences if you don't do what you are told or don't keep your mouth shut.

This isn't just defence and isn't just junior leaders, it is usually initiated at much higher levels with people known to be doing the wrong thing supported, protected, even rewarded by higher ups. So long as there is the appearance that all is good, that is more important than ensuring things are all good.

When the truth inevitably comes out it needs to be remembered that many accused were unwilling participants. It needs to be remembered there were superiors and politicians desiring, even implying certain things should be done, while keeping there own hands clean. It also needs to be remembered what happens to whistle blowers and those who try and fail to change things.

Not saying there should be no investigations, or that no one should go to gaol, rather that mitigating circumstances have to the considered. There also has to be an understanding that unwilling participants will also be suffering guilt, may have self harmed, be in a very bad place mentally because of what they were forced to witness or even do. These people need help, support and in some cases treatment, not more stress, adverse publicity and punishment.

Leaders and instigators, by all means throw away the key, but the rest, commonsense and compassion is probably more appropriate.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Breaking news over Army’s Elbit BMS system. Army has ordered all work on BMS to immediately stop and will be discontinuing it’s use, with no explanation or information on replacement…

More to follow.
WOW ok that is interesting indeed, did find this as the only other reference I could find, everything else that comes up looks like business as usual !!


Speculation on my part, but in my previous life when something like this would happen it would be due to a system being compromised !!

Cheers
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The really dumb thing is back in the 90s the old DSTO was developing an Australian BMS built around decentralised data nodes providing for graceful degradation following combat loses. To be in this situation now demonstrates again, how narrow minded and short sited government decisions have been.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
We may be getting 4 more Chinooks
The US-DSCA announced on 29 April, that approval has been given for the sale of 4 more CH-47F Chinooks to Australia, under a $269m FMS contract.
This would bring the number up to 14
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We may be getting 4 more Chinooks
The US-DSCA announced on 29 April, that approval has been given for the sale of 4 more CH-47F Chinooks to Australia, under a $269m FMS contract.
This would bring the number up to 14
Good news but it also indicates that the MRH90 is still not performing. Its a line I've pushed for a long time, if any helo needs early replacement it's the combat wombat, not the tiger.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Busy morning.
The DSCA has approved a M-1 upgrade package for Australia that will include
75 M-1A2 SEPv3 MBT with a unique Armour package and the Common Remotely Operated Weapons Station Low Profile(CROWS-LP)
29 M-1150 Assault Breaker Vehicles
18 M-1074 joint assault bridges
6 additional M88A2 Recovery Vehicles
122 Engines
The package also includes a range of equipment for Ops, trg, maintenance and logistics.
Total cost est is $1.685b
This certainly represents a significant increase over the current fleet
Its likely that the Tanks will come out of US reserve stock, be upgraded and then replace the 59 in Australian service
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Busy morning.
The DSCA has approved a M-1 upgrade package for Australia that will include
75 M-1A2 SEPv3 MBT with a unique Armour package and the Common Remotely Operated Weapons Station Low Profile(CROWS-LP)
29 M-1150 Assault Breaker Vehicles
18 M-1074 joint assault bridges
6 additional M88A2 Recovery Vehicles
122 Engines
The package also includes a range of equipment for Ops, trg, maintenance and logistics.
Total cost est is $1.685b
This certainly represents a significant increase over the current fleet
Its likely that the Tanks will come out of US reserve stock, be upgraded and then replace the 59 in Australian service

Wonder what happens with the current fleet trade in do they go back to US for cheaper fleet?

Would be good if they made another show how they rebuild them again can’t rember the name of the show from Lima
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Wonder what happens with the current fleet trade in do they go back to US for cheaper fleet?

Would be good if they made another show how they rebuild them again can’t rember the name of the show from Lima
I believe it will be a trade in, i would say the US has probably got a few thousand in storage awaiting upgrade so they will take 75 out of storage and ours will be returned(maybe one to go to the Armour Museum at Pucka?)
The show your talking about was called Mega Factories M-1 Tank, available on YT but you have to pay for it.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wonder what happens with the current fleet trade in do they go back to US for cheaper fleet?

Would be good if they made another show how they rebuild them again can’t rember the name of the show from Lima
Yep, effective trade-ins, with our existing vehicles to go back to the US remanufacturing ‘pool’ once the new vehicles are delivered.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Wonder what happens with the current fleet trade in do they go back to US for cheaper
Read the link and it's explained in the last paragraph. As I understand it this is the standard method of upgrading even for the US Army

oldsig
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's been said before, in the grand scheme of things MBTs are comparatively cheap and deliver a lot of bang for your buck. Great to see numbers going up as well as the version being acquired being brought in line with the current best US version.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think something that is over looked in these matters is the effect of coercion, fear, and knowledge of the consequences if you don't do what you are told or don't keep your mouth shut.

This isn't just defence and isn't just junior leaders, it is usually initiated at much higher levels with people known to be doing the wrong thing supported, protected, even rewarded by higher ups. So long as there is the appearance that all is good, that is more important than ensuring things are all good.

When the truth inevitably comes out it needs to be remembered that many accused were unwilling participants. It needs to be remembered there were superiors and politicians desiring, even implying certain things should be done, while keeping there own hands clean. It also needs to be remembered what happens to whistle blowers and those who try and fail to change things.

Not saying there should be no investigations, or that no one should go to gaol, rather that mitigating circumstances have to the considered. There also has to be an understanding that unwilling participants will also be suffering guilt, may have self harmed, be in a very bad place mentally because of what they were forced to witness or even do. These people need help, support and in some cases treatment, not more stress, adverse publicity and punishment.

Leaders and instigators, by all means throw away the key, but the rest, commonsense and compassion is probably more appropriate.
Your reply is basically acknowledging that someone is guilty of something once again.
Why can’t you just wait and see what the truth actually is?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Your reply is basically acknowledging that someone is guilty of something once again.
Why can’t you just wait and see what the truth actually is?
You seem to be suggesting that because what allegedly happened, occurred in a war zone there should be no investigation and therefore no trial and no determination of guilt or innocence.

Taking this a step further it suggests that certain individuals should be above the law.

I am against witch hunts and punishing those unfortunate to be scapegoated but believe intently that if crimes are suspected to be committed they should be investigated, if there is sufficient evidence, charges should be laid, if it progresses to trial and the person found guilty, they should be appropriately sentenced.

Quite simple, it's called the rule of law, not perfect but better than most countries need to live with.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No Volk. I am suggesting that soldiers, like every other person in this country have the RIGHT to natural justice.
Your post reads that you think that some of guilty, were probably bullied into covering it up or coerced into the allegations.
In other words, you have already decided that war crimes have been committed, and there are multiple guilty parties.
Let natural justice take place Volk. Comment after the smoke clears.
You know prison officers in the NT were accused or tourtering juveniles at Don Dale by the media. No officers were charged as a result of the surpreme court cases, the children’s commission and a royal commission.
All I am saying it really sounds as though you have already made up your mind. And that is not fair considering the only info you have is mainstream media.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You seem to be suggesting that because what allegedly happened, occurred in a war zone there should be no investigation and therefore no trial and no determination of guilt or innocence.

Taking this a step further it suggests that certain individuals should be above the law.

I am against witch hunts and punishing those unfortunate to be scapegoated but believe intently that if crimes are suspected to be committed they should be investigated, if there is sufficient evidence, charges should be laid, if it progresses to trial and the person found guilty, they should be appropriately sentenced.

Quite simple, it's called the rule of law, not perfect but better than most countries need to live with.
Have you been drinking?
Read what I wrote in my post again please and then explain how you came to that conclusion.
 
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