Australian Army Discussions and Updates

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well not sure what the rest of you think of this ? But I personally think this is a pretty pathetic and frankly disgraceful attempt at gutter inter force politics ! what an absolute toss !!

Happy for anyone else to convince me otherwise, but basically stating that the problems are because of the Army and that the RAAF is used to this type of complex equipment and the capability should be handed over to them is just plain untrue and dumb !! Correct me if I am wrong ? Guessing they would want everything else too then !!

Cheers

 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well not sure what the rest of you think of this ? But I personally think this is a pretty pathetic and frankly disgraceful attempt at gutter inter force politics ! what an absolute toss !!
Happy for anyone else to convince me otherwise, but basically stating that the problems are because of the Army and that the RAAF is used to this type of complex equipment and the capability should be handed over to them is just plain untrue and dumb !! Correct me if I am wrong ? Guessing they would want everything else too then !!
I stopped paying attention when I heard the word "retired". No longer relevant. Also look at the source, sounds like a slow news day at the desk and they're looking for some short term outrage from the one eyed Defence supporter set. Ignore.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well some of us ex air force and navy bods would reckon that the ye ancient Bedford RL is a bit to technical for the army :p

Yes the item is a load of crap. It's an absolute load of dogs bollocks. IMHO the problem is not the Army's airmenship and technical abilities, but the procurement process that occurred and the failings within it.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I stopped paying attention when I heard the word "retired". No longer relevant. Also look at the source, sounds like a slow news day at the desk and they're looking for some short term outrage from the one eyed Defence supporter set. Ignore.
Chief of Air Force : Ok we have taken over the Attack Helicopters from the Army, now where‘s our leading expert on Helicopters?
Staff : Total silence
CAF : Anyone?
Staff : Ah Sir whats a Helicopter?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well not sure what the rest of you think of this ? But I personally think this is a pretty pathetic and frankly disgraceful attempt at gutter inter force politics ! what an absolute toss !!

Happy for anyone else to convince me otherwise, but basically stating that the problems are because of the Army and that the RAAF is used to this type of complex equipment and the capability should be handed over to them is just plain untrue and dumb !! Correct me if I am wrong ? Guessing they would want everything else too then !!

Cheers

I notice the Army doesn’t have the same ‘organisational issues’ with the complex American Chinook, Blackhawk or the European EC-135, but it does with Tiger and MRH-90...

I notice Mr Brown doesn’t apparently see Navy’s helicopters needing to be operated by the RAAF, so presumably they are aware of how to operate ‘complex aircraft’ and yet they too are having so many troubles with MRH-90 that they are off-loading them back to Army, yet do not have the same issue with their far more complex Romeos...

Something is wrong in this scenario, but it isn’t Army or Navy...
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, the two choppers, tiger and taipan, should be re named leggless lizard and file snake. Both equally harmless and pretty much useless. A mixed fleet of chinooks and new gen blackhawks would be a sensible way to go, sell off the NH 90’s (cheap if need be) to who ever will take them and give the tigers to the RAAF lol. Maybe look at the numbers of Apaches too. 29? 32 would give a few to put in storage and raid for parts , or maybe use to rotate them in when others go through deep maintenance.
Sadly, it seems the NH 90,s are here to stay. What an expensive exercise they were.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, the two choppers, tiger and taipan, should be re named leggless lizard and file snake. Both equally harmless and pretty much useless. A mixed fleet of chinooks and new gen blackhawks would be a sensible way to go, sell off the NH 90’s (cheap if need be) to who ever will take them and give the tigers to the RAAF lol. Maybe look at the numbers of Apaches too. 29? 32 would give a few to put in storage and raid for parts , or maybe use to rotate them in when others go through deep maintenance.
Sadly, it seems the NH 90,s are here to stay. What an expensive exercise they were.
Again I don't believe it is the aircraft at fault. Both are good platforms, but it was the procurement and how it was done where the fault lies. There appears to be no due diligence done on sustainment and the logistics of supporting the platforms from Europe. One thought that I have is that to many presumptions were made by Defence and they failed to account for delays in parts delivery, everything.

If you look at the NZ procurement of the NH90, we acquired an extra one as an attritional spares aircraft, so that when we had an AOG (Aircraft On Ground), like the lightning strike on the rotor blade incident, we had the aircraft back into service quickly. We didn't have to wait months for a new rotor blade. One off the attritional aircraft was used and a replacement was ordered from Airbus.

This is similar to the SH-2G(A) Seasprite fiasco which was another Australian procurement disaster. Although Defence blamed Kaman for it, it was actually Defence's fault for demanding a capability that was then impossible to deliver. So like then, there is a significant amount of arse covering going on within Defence.

I would have to ask why the French and Germans don't have anywhere near the same problems with the Tiger and they've used it in combat? So what where is this mantra of Tiger is rubbish coming from? Certainly not from the Army Tiger ARH aircrew. They love it.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I notice the Army doesn’t have the same ‘organisational issues’ with the complex American Chinook, Blackhawk or the European EC-135, but it does with Tiger and MRH-90...

I notice Mr Brown doesn’t apparently see Navy’s helicopters needing to be operated by the RAAF, so presumably they are aware of how to operate ‘complex aircraft’ and yet they too are having so many troubles with MRH-90 that they are off-loading them back to Army, yet do not have the same issue with their far more complex Romeos...

Something is wrong in this scenario, but it isn’t Army or Navy...
Is it because there are fleets in the thousands of Blackhawk and Chinooks and parts supply logistics is simpler?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Again I don't believe it is the aircraft at fault. Both are good platforms, but it was the procurement and how it was done where the fault lies. There appears to be no due diligence done on sustainment and the logistics of supporting the platforms from Europe. One thought that I have is that to many presumptions were made by Defence and they failed to account for delays in parts delivery, everything.

If you look at the NZ procurement of the NH90, we acquired an extra one as an attritional spares aircraft, so that when we had an AOG (Aircraft On Ground), like the lightning strike on the rotor blade incident, we had the aircraft back into service quickly. We didn't have to wait months for a new rotor blade. One off the attritional aircraft was used and a replacement was ordered from Airbus.

This is similar to the SH-2G(A) Seasprite fiasco which was another Australian procurement disaster. Although Defence blamed Kaman for it, it was actually Defence's fault for demanding a capability that was then impossible to deliver. So like then, there is a significant amount of arse covering going on within Defence.

I would have to ask why the French and Germans don't have anywhere near the same problems with the Tiger and they've used it in combat? So what where is this mantra of Tiger is rubbish coming from? Certainly not from the Army Tiger ARH aircrew. They love it.
The crew love it, yes they do, when they are flying.
The Infantry also loved the SLR, M4,s and M203’s.
The RAAF loved the F111’s and the Kiwis loved the A4’s........
The crews also loved the blackhawks.
The relevance of having an extra airframe to cannabize? So we have a fleet of 47 NH 90’s we should just use 7 as spare parts? That is about the same ratio as you kiwis have?
$350 million sitting around in case we need some widgets...that’s about 12 blackhawks.
The NH 90’s are maintenance pigs.
The tigers are the same, with what, 9 years before IOC was achieved?
The NH90 procurement was NOT the problem at all. It was/is the constant problems surfacing. Infantrymens boots damaging the floor. The ramp has load restrictions that make it pretty much irrelevant, the seats could only cope with 110kg, I weighed 90 kg cleanskin, add a pack, webbing and rifle and I would have been 150kg plus. No door gun position, no fast rope or rappelling capability, and it dosnt flare meaning it’s landings are much slower presenting an easier target. It was the wrong platform from the start.
The tiger looked great on paper. Longer range and some extra capabilities, but in real service, not much extra range and we required an extra 7 aircraft , 29 to keep a squadron of 16 operational.
Further, the Apache and Blackhawk use the same engine, and the army’s M1 tank uses a derivative of the same engine....
You realise that the RNZAF could have got 16-18 blackhawks for the price of their 9 NH90,s? Pretty sure a Blackhawk will fit inside a C130J30. An NH90 won’t.
 
Last edited:

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
The tiger looked great on paper. Longer range and some extra capabilities, but in real service, not much extra range and we required an extra 7 aircraft , 29 to keep a squadron of 16 operational.
Two squadrons, eight apiece, of 16. Twenty-two was always insufficient, regardless of the aircraft. I think the old 3-1-1-1 model for air force combat aircraft may have merit, to some degree. (That is, for every three operational aircraft, you have one in squadron maintenance, one in deep maintenance / attrition reserve, and one for conversion.)
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Two squadrons, eight apiece, of 16. Twenty-two was always insufficient, regardless of the aircraft. I think the old 3-1-1-1 model for air force combat aircraft may have merit, to some degree. (That is, for every three operational aircraft, you have one in squadron maintenance, one in deep maintenance / attrition reserve, and one for conversion.)

24 aircraft per squadron for 12 operational at any one time?

Whats the ADF requirement for operational aircraft at any one time

3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
12-4-4-4

My understanding was for every 12 aircraft 8 are usually operationally available
 

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
24 aircraft per squadron for 12 operational at any one time?

Whats the ADF requirement for operational aircraft at any one time

3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
3-1-1-1
12-4-4-4

My understanding was for every 12 aircraft 8 are usually operationally available
Not sure how they do their maths. I expect economics plays much too great a part. The 3-1-1-1 idea I've read from others is a rough guide, but does seem to - roughly - work out with some aircraft types at home and abroad.

If we look at the F/A-18A/B Hornets for the RAAF, we bought 57 As and 18 Bs, for three operational squadrons and one operational conversion unit. I understand the typical squadron strength is 14-16. Applying the rough formula above and rounding a little, you could say squadrons of 16 with 12 aircraft operationally available (or whatever the correct lingo is for that, I'm not sure) and four in maintenance, plus another four per squadron in deeper maintenance / attrition reserve, equals 60 single-seaters, not far off 57. Falls down on the two-seaters though, with it working out to 12, but we have 18. Anyway, funnily enough, Spain originally acquired 60 As and 12 Bs.

I've seen another formula used - apparently - in the US Air Force, which was based on squadron strength. If I recall correctly, it was something like you took your total squadron strength for a type (the typical 24 aircraft per squadron times the number of operational squadrons) and then added 10% of that for maintenance, then an extra 10% of the new total for conversion, and finally another 10% of the new total for attrition / flight testing. When you consider the squadron strength is not operationally available aircraft, I think it works out fairly similar to the 3-1-1-1 formula. I've also seen that the USAF allocates - or use to anyway - four pilots to every three aircraft in a squadron plus the squadron commander. I bet we don't.

Anyway, I digress. Not sure if such formulas have as much relevance with dual control aircraft, where you have co-pilots. That would change things. For the Tiger though, I don't see it should be so different than with fighter squadrons. With 16 assigned to the two operational squadrons, only having six left over for conversion, deeper maintenance, flight testing, clearly is too few. Not sure how they've arrived at 29 though?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Again I don't believe it is the aircraft at fault. Both are good platforms, but it was the procurement and how it was done where the fault lies. There appears to be no due diligence done on sustainment and the logistics of supporting the platforms from Europe. One thought that I have is that to many presumptions were made by Defence and they failed to account for delays in parts delivery, everything.

If you look at the NZ procurement of the NH90, we acquired an extra one as an attritional spares aircraft, so that when we had an AOG (Aircraft On Ground), like the lightning strike on the rotor blade incident, we had the aircraft back into service quickly. We didn't have to wait months for a new rotor blade. One off the attritional aircraft was used and a replacement was ordered from Airbus.

This is similar to the SH-2G(A) Seasprite fiasco which was another Australian procurement disaster. Although Defence blamed Kaman for it, it was actually Defence's fault for demanding a capability that was then impossible to deliver. So like then, there is a significant amount of arse covering going on within Defence.

I would have to ask why the French and Germans don't have anywhere near the same problems with the Tiger and they've used it in combat? So what where is this mantra of Tiger is rubbish coming from? Certainly not from the Army Tiger ARH aircrew. They love it.
I would disagree, in that part of the issue has been the aircraft itself, or more specifically, while Defence was making the selection (with no small amount of involvement from gov't and various state/industry/ex-def lobbyists) based off information from the vendor which turned out to be inaccurate IIRC. Both the NH90 and Tiger platforms were themselves still in development when selected, yet it does appear as though they were 'sold' as completed systems. Between the helicopters still being developed, delays in the capability becoming available for service due to developmental issues encountered (like floor cracking, etc.) and then at least some inaccurate/bad data, that can cause hordes of service problems.

Take an area like maintenance for example. The ADF would have had experience with maintaining the S-70A Black Hawk, and therefore have a really good idea what the maintenance cost and schedule would be, and incidentally that was a specific design criteria for the US Army for high aircraft availability (80%+ IIRC). I am certain that Defence would have asked questions about what the maintenance and cost schedule for the NH90 would be, as well as the aircraft availability. Unfortunately, if an aircraft is a new design and still in development, then accurate data for the maintenance schedule and # of maintenance hours per flight hour, cost per flight hour, and availability is not really available.

As a side note, I recall that Defence was looking at both NH90 and the UH-60M Black Hawk as a potential replacement for the S-70A Black Hawk, but the UH-60M variant (which was preferred by Army I believe) was still being developed so was not selected.

Part of the bitterness I believe some have regarding the MRH90 selection, is that it seems to have been another case where something was 'sold' as a completed system when they were still in development, which means that the estimates were naturally off. On a related note, Australia only ordered 46 MRH90's, the 47th example was 'given' to Australia in lieu of Airbus being hit with penalties for failing to meet contract requirements for the MRH90.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The relevance of having an extra airframe to cannabize? So we have a fleet of 47 NH 90’s we should just use 7 as spare parts? That is about the same ratio as you kiwis have?

You realise that the RNZAF could have got 16-18 blackhawks for the price of their 9 NH90,s? Pretty sure a Blackhawk will fit inside a C130J30. An NH90 won’t.
The RNZAF and NZ Army wanted a minimum of 10 flyable aircraft and one for spares. BUT the govt and Treasury would only spring for 8 + 1. The NZ Army was the actual customer and didn't want the Blackhawk because it didn't give them the lift capability that they required. A little bit of research goes a long way.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I would have to ask why the French and Germans don't have anywhere near the same problems with the Tiger and they've used it in combat? So what where is this mantra of Tiger is rubbish coming from? Certainly not from the Army Tiger ARH aircrew. They love it.
You want to know - look at some of the comments between your comment and now - it generally comes down to ignorance with some poisoning from MRH-90. Note I've never been involved with MRH-90 and can't - and won't - make any comments on that capability.

There's enough of my posts through here that lay out AIR87's selection and use of Tiger in the Regt. The reality is most of Tiger is shrouded in a seemingly impenetrable layer of BS myth. Even stuff like the famed ANAO report is full of errors - some of which I'm convinced was insiders trying to push a point of view.

Some key ones:

Apache would have been better. With hindsight, possibly. But we were being offered D's without Longbow and with a bunch of avionics stripped out. Effectively A's. They'd have been out of date well before a feasible MLU / CAP. It was a close run thing, but at the time the -64D Longbow was the final version going to be made and Tiger had a better starting point and way ahead.

It can't communicate. It was never designed to. AIR87 is the last major Army project before BMS was stood up. It was going to have L16, but the CoA removed that after Army stood up BMS. No matter which variant won, it wouldn't have been fitted, nor been able to communicate.

We didn't buy enough. We bout exactly what we wanted. We didn't give numbers, we gave an availability rate. We wanted x% of the fleet available 60% of the time and y% at 80%. Tenders had to submit their fleet numbers. Eurocopter said 22, Boeing 21 and Bell 19. This is the point where I think the CoA made it's biggest error - we didn't ask for clarification on the maintenance hours per flying hour. Eurocopter and Bell both gave unrealistic numbers that, because they were new helicopters with modern digital avionics, HUMS and fault finding, we accepted. Just like every single platform we have decided since then. Turns out, both of them we about 33% under the reality. Funnily enough, about 20 - 30% more spares, frames and workforce would have made the fleet a dream. BTW - the first point about Apache? We could only afford 1x of them. So we wouldn't have been able to buy 21 anyhow...

IOC was delayed. I worked on the deployment plan to put jets into operational theatres in the late 00's and early 10's, before IOC was called. The delays to IOC related primarily to three things - one of which isn't possible for any attack helicopter, one of which was a result of us turning LPAs into LHDs and one of which was a problem that we should have focused on earlier - but wasn't an issue in fighting in those areas at that time. It was a political decision to not throw them in, not a capability issue.

Technicality. Tiger is the most complicated thing that the Army owned until the CRV comes in. Senior's underestimating this complexity hurt us for years. It was just meant to be a modern, gunned up Kiowa - but we bought something much, much more capable. It was sold to us with the same 1990s ideas about maintenance that the US and Europe followed - HUMS tells you everything and you don't need complex fault finding or highly skilled technicians. So we raped RAEME and AAvn. Oops; turns out you do need that stuff.... To give an idea, be 100% reliable for the maintenance of ~30 1971 VW Beetles. Stuff you need a 1/2" spanner, a Phillips head screwdriver and some tape and that's it. Now, rip them out and replace with some 2008 Porsche 911 GT2s. Imagine what you need to learn.

CoA relationships. Let's not kid ourselves, it's been rough. Not all of that was Eurocopter though - the CoA did some really silly stuff. I cringe when I see that 'we've learnt the lessons of AIR87'. Ha. But let's not throw too many stones. With Tiger, we generally had front row seats as we were making it work unlike the other three nations. We pushed hard. And demanded some dumb things. On some things we got shit service. I think AIR 9000 poisoned a lot of this, but we had worked out most of our misunderstandings and errors by early 2010s.

Australian-isation killed it. We made three alterations, one no cost and two that turned a profit. They had no delay and the French retrofitted two, the Spanish all three and the German's one.

---

The reality is that the Army was playing catch up. We needed attack helicopters, and had delayed purchasing it through the 1980s and 90s. We got exactly what we asked for; perhaps we didn't think about what we wanted well enough - but I'm not sure on that. The tender and initial doctrine was sound. We've updated it heaps obviously, as we've learnt the capability. But it was always meant to be gone by the end of the 2020s, and hopefully the replacement won't be such a learning curve. We underestimated the technical requirements, we put too much faith in the latest technology in glossy brochures (oh, hello Collins, Attack, Hobart, P-8, F-35, BMS, AS4, CIOG, etc etc etc...) and didn't sell it's successes. The frustrating tale about Tiger isn't Tiger - but sitting in Canberra watching mistakes like these being made again, again and again....
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RNZAF and NZ Army wanted a minimum of 10 flyable aircraft and one for spares. BUT the govt and Treasury would only spring for 8 + 1. The NZ Army was the actual customer and didn't want the Blackhawk because it didn't give them the lift capability that they required. A little bit of research goes a long way.
A little bit of research goes a long way is a pretty condescending tone.
Do you think the RNZAF would have bought the NH 90 if the ADF didn’t?
8 NH90’s gives you a marginal increase in lift capability. Does the RNZAF load it with 20 fully geared up grunts? Are all 8 available all the time?
If you do an ET type operation, how many will NZ be prepared to deploy, 4? 6?
In the real world, 12 blackhawks would have given the NZDF a lot more flexibility, I doubt very much 20 fully equiped grunts per platform compared to 9-11 per platform would be a money saver or an operational advantage. Being that there is about a $25 million saving per platform, and spare parts available from Bunnings type convenience supply chain.
 

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
A little bit of research goes a long way is a pretty condescending tone.
Do you think the RNZAF would have bought the NH 90 if the ADF didn’t?
8 NH90’s gives you a marginal increase in lift capability. Does the RNZAF load it with 20 fully geared up grunts? Are all 8 available all the time?
If you do an ET type operation, how many will NZ be prepared to deploy, 4? 6?
In the real world, 12 blackhawks would have given the NZDF a lot more flexibility, I doubt very much 20 fully equiped grunts per platform compared to 9-11 per platform would be a money saver or an operational advantage. Being that there is about a $25 million saving per platform, and spare parts available from Bunnings type convenience supply chain.
Operating more platforms to deliver the same lift would surely cost more in personnel numbers? And isn't personnel about half the ADF's costs?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We could speculate on that. The NH 90’s require more maintenance time than the blackhawks. That’s more down time, so you could argue that maintenance Manning could be higher. The Apache, Blackhawk and seahawk all use the same engines, as well as the army’s M1 tanks, use a similar turbine. So you could consolidate and-save on a lot of spares and supply chains. A mix of CH47’s and blackhawks would give a lot of flexibility in battlefield lift, an extra 4 CH47,s would negate the need for big increase in platform numbers.
 

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
We could speculate on that. The NH 90’s require more maintenance time than the blackhawks. That’s more down time, so you could argue that maintenance Manning could be higher. The Apache, Blackhawk and seahawk all use the same engines, as well as the army’s M1 tanks, use a similar turbine. So you could consolidate and-save on a lot of spares and supply chains. A mix of CH47’s and blackhawks would give a lot of flexibility in battlefield lift, an extra 4 CH47,s would negate the need for big increase in platform numbers.
From what others are saying, it seems the maintenance requirement has proven to be more than what was expected. I can see the logic in trying to deliver more capability for the same number of personnel. If we think about operations from the LHDs too, six MRH-90s can take off and land, what, 96 soldiers if they use seats, more if not, in one go? That's almost a full rifle company. Six Blackhawks would carry two-thirds the number perhaps? Hindsight is, of course, never wrong.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would have to ask why the French and Germans don't have anywhere near the same problems with the Tiger and they've used it in combat?
For Germany:

By 2015 six out of 43 delivered and 23 operational Tigers were considered combat-worthy (2016: 15 of 48 - 2019: 8 out of 53) and by 2016 the order was cut in half - to less than what had been delivered by then, with about one-quarter phased out of service. About a year ago the army was also massively criticizing Airbus for consistently delaying contracted maintenance services for Tigers - and that's considerably after an army investigation found that the 2017 crash of a German Tiger in Mali (during the only combat deployment of German Tigers) was due to an "inexperienced and untrained Airbus maintenance team wrongly adjusting the main rotor control".

Oh, and the last time the whole fleet was grounded was last July to August for faulty bolts.
 
Top