Argentina Air Force News and Discussion

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1-SlILFemVX5FWFaofNFlk

Looks like Argentina has selected 10/FA50,s from South Korea as interim fighters. Wonder if this deal will go through, and wonder if it will lead to a purchase of KFX when available?
A bit of googling came up with the fact that they will be paying an almost unbelievable US$200m for ten FA-50's plus sim to be paid over 10 years. That they will get two initial airframes with the remaining 8 following in tranches.

Argentina negotiates purchase of 10 light fighter FA-50 from South Korea

Personally, I think there is quite a bit lost in translation over this or the Argentine government has not released the full package details.

Assuming they will be FA-50 Block 20's the package value of ten aircraft should be more around the US$400m mark.

It is more plausible that US$200m is for the first two airframes and sims with a support contract in place as a down payment, with the remaining 8 airframes paid over 10 years costing a further US$200m. Even the above is a great deal.

Or it could be that KAI is selling 10 of their 20 TA-50's first introduced in 2011 for US$200m plus a support package, weapons, sim et al in which they will balance with replacement FA-50's to keep the production line ticking over? That again would be a great deal.

I will be fascinated with what was actually offered. The truth will slowly emerge.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #122
I will be fascinated with what was actually offered. The truth will slowly emerge.
The plot thickens - KAI say they've not been told they won and that it only covers 8 aircraft rather than 10! They'll need a few more than that in the end however. (KAI yet to receive confirmation of Argentine FA-50 win)

I've also been hearing Leonardo haven't thrown the towel in either and are still trying to push M364, in addition to Saab still in the wings trying to get Gripen approvals through.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The plot thickens - KAI say they've not been told they won and that it only covers 8 aircraft rather than 10! They'll need a few more than that in the end however. (KAI yet to receive confirmation of Argentine FA-50 win)

I've also been hearing Leonardo haven't thrown the towel in either and are still trying to push M364, in addition to Saab still in the wings trying to get Gripen approvals through.
I am getting the impression that this is more Argie tyre kicking, because it appears that nothing official has been said. The Jane's story cites an "informed source" who claims that ... "he expects the government to sign off on the planned procurement 'in the near future' with deliveries to commence shortly after. Argentina has national presidential elections at the end of October, and the source noted that these may slightly prolong the timeline, but that he still expects the deal to go through." This is why I suspect it's tyre kicking.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am getting the impression that this is more Argie tyre kicking, because it appears that nothing official has been said. The Jane's story cites an "informed source" who claims that ... "he expects the government to sign off on the planned procurement 'in the near future' with deliveries to commence shortly after. Argentina has national presidential elections at the end of October, and the source noted that these may slightly prolong the timeline, but that he still expects the deal to go through." This is why I suspect it's tyre kicking.

Harsh man, it's not like we've read a dozen or more stories over the last twenty years about the Argentine government making an aircraft purchase that never went through is it ? Oh...uh..

Seriously, if the Argentinians had ordered all the aircraft they were interested in over the last two decades, they'd be the 8th or 9th largest airforce
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
"In January 2018, the sale of the five Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard Modernisés that had retired from active duty within the French Navy was announced during a visit of President Macri in France. The €12 million contract also included eight ATAR 8K50 engines, spare parts and a training simulator. After Argentina delayed the payment for four months, the five aircraft were finally delivered. In May 2020, one of them made its first rollout."

Source: Argentine A-4AR fighter jet crashes near Cordoba, pilot dead

Primeras imágenes de los Super Étendard adquiridos por la Armada Argentina

So, are all of these 5 delivered to the airforce and already operational?

Edit:
Sorry...it seems to be the Argentina Navy, i should have post it in the navy thread.
 
Last edited:

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Zonar Militar has been reporting on going plans to acquire 10 single seat and 2 dual seaters and the shortlist now includes JF-17 and MiG-35. In the case of the JF-17, the interest is mainly in the Block 3 variant for the single seaters with a delegation from CATIC reportedly visiting Argentina this week.

The choice of the MiG-35 is unusual, given the probability of attracting a responses under CAATSA. Perhaps as leverage to get a better deal from the Chinese?

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Zonar Militar has been reporting on going plans to acquire 10 single seat and 2 dual seaters and the shortlist now includes JF-17 and MiG-35. In the case of the JF-17, the interest is mainly in the Block 3 variant for the single seaters with a delegation from CATIC reportedly visiting Argentina this week.

The choice of the MiG-35 is unusual, given the probability of attracting a responses under CAATSA. Perhaps as leverage to get a better deal from the Chinese?

Given the close ties with Lockheed-Martin, i am actually surprised that Argentina doesnt choose for second-hand refurbished F-16s.
Argentina had some problems in the past with chinese fishing boats in their EEZ, and although the JF-17 is undoublty cheaper than F-16s and MiG-35, it is still made of chinese quality and durability. After all, besides Pakistan only a handfull of poor 3rd World Countries with close ties to china have the JF-17 in their fleet.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
FAA did ask for F-16s during the Menem presidency back in the 90s. They were turned down and were offered the A4 Fighting Hawks.

This whole affair could be just a huge gambit; as much as the US isn't remotely interested in arming Argentina, they may not tolerate Argentina purchasing from China either.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
FAA did ask for F-16s during the Menem presidency back in the 90s. They were turned down and were offered the A4 Fighting Hawks.

This whole affair could be just a huge gambit; as much as the US isn't remotely interested in arming Argentina, they may not tolerate Argentina purchasing from China either.
After many years, at last Argentina made the decision to order the JF-17. The FA-50 was ofcourse a better choice, but being not able to buy the FA-50 because of British components, Argentina has no other choice than ordering the JF-17. Well, maybe the HAL Tejas would also be a suitable candidate, but i dont know if there are any British components in the Tejas




Edit:
It seems that the Tejas also uses Martin-Baker 16LG zero-zero ejection seats.
 
Last edited:

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
After many years, at last Argentina made the decision to order the JF-17. The FA-50 was of course a better choice, but being not able to buy the FA-50 because of British components, Argentina has no other choice than ordering the JF-17. Well, maybe the HAL Tejas would also be a suitable candidate, but i dont know if there are any British components in the Tejas




Edit:
It seems that the Tejas also uses Martin-Baker 16LG zero-zero ejection seats.
And in the bigger picture it seems to me that the US will have to allow KAI the opportunity to develop the FA-50 further as the JF-17 could end up in a number of other countries and slightly shifting that alignment balance to a Beijing centred world from a DC centred world.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Isn't Boeing wants to develop T-7 further as LCA? In sense similar concept as T-38 being developed as F-5. If US allowing even bankroll Boeing to do this, it can provide US with their own LCA (direct control by them) to whoever nation in South America, Africa, and Asia that can't afford any MRCA price tag.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Seems present Argentinian administration wants to pursue JF-17, and also Defense Industrial co-op with China. That's will be interesting concerning Argentinian Coast Guard sometimes violent encounter with Chinese fishing fleet.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Well they'll just have to separate both issues - that of buying Chinese fighters and that of Chinese trawlers in their waters. Just like how Argentina won't stay no to.Chinese investment despite issues with Chinese trawlers.

As it stands even if the cash was available, Brit pressure would probably prevent them obtaining American and European, so that just leaves them.with the Chinese option. After decades of operating European stuff switching to.Chinese will require some getting use to but there appears to be no.other alternative. The Russians might 've willing to step in but the Argies would have to.inquire if the Americans are all right with that or will apply CAATSA [IIRC Argentina in the past was offered MiG29s way before MiG-35s even existed].
 
Last edited:

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Seems present Argentinian administration wants to pursue JF-17, and also Defense Industrial co-op with China. That's will be interesting concerning Argentinian Coast Guard sometimes violent encounter with Chinese fishing fleet.
Agree, but...
“In my experience, nothing in [the] Argentine defense sector is set [in] stone until contracts are signed and Argentina actually starts paying,”
And i think this is the case with most countries these days.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
After decades of operating European stuff switching to.Chinese will require some getting use to but there appears to be no.other alternative.
The Chinese military technological evolution has rapidly been moving away from the Russian/Soviet templates to Western/U.S. templates, thanks to both their espionage activities and consultancies from friendly countries that have extensive experience in operating Western/U.S. military aircraft and associated weapon systems. Besides, the JF-17 is designed to cater to the needs of another Western-oriented air force - i.e. PAF. I think the FAA would find it not too difficult to adjust to the JF-17, especially if their training on the aircraft is expedited by the PAF (some pressure from the UK may be exerted in this area). The main problem, as I see it, is going to be long-term financing for the acquisition of the aircraft in substantial numbers.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Granted but being Chinese made one has to question the MTBF/TBO of the gearbox, landing gear and other components. The
JF-17 is powered by a Russian RD-33 and although the number of hours it can fly before needing an overhaul has been extended; I have no idea how it compares to Western equivalents. Another issue is how much integration/certification on the actual platform is needed to meet Argentine requirements.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
They don't have much choices. The other proposal are used Danish F-16s. Beyond the questionable lifespan, they would be restricted in the type of munitions they could acquire (e.g probably AIM-9Ls).

The Chinese can offer them access to a full range of AA, AG munitions without any political restrictions. A couple of JF-17 Block III with PL-12/SD-10s would be a threat that needs to be taken seriously, compared to defanged F-16s.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
They don't have much choices. The other proposal are used Danish F-16s. Beyond the questionable lifespan, they would be restricted in the type of munitions they could acquire (e.g probably AIM-9Ls).

The Chinese can offer them access to a full range of AA, AG munitions without any political restrictions. A couple of JF-17 Block III with PL-12/SD-10s would be a threat that needs to be taken seriously, compared to defanged F-16s.
Also, the Danish air force has decided to keep its F-16s flying for, at least, three more years in the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Further extension of service cannot be ruled out either. This possibly rules out the Danish F-16s entirely.

I am assuming the FAA is interested in acquiring more or less 12 Block-III variants. From a little bit of info that I have gathered, and if I am not entirely incorrect, they seem more interested in the Chinese WS-13 engines than the Russia RD-93. The Block-III is intended to be integrated with the WS-13 but I am unsure if the engine is immediately available.
 
Top