Argentina Air Force News and Discussion

RobWilliams

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Following previous stories about Argentinian procurement of Kfirs, M2000s, Gripens and Su-24's, Argentina and China have signed an agreement to form a working group to study the possible introduction of the JF-17 or J-10B into Argentinas air force.

Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360

If the option is exercised, a transfer of 14 aircraft is expected.

Unlike previous stories this one might actually occur considering Argentina/China seem to be cooperating more closely, however such talks with China about the JF-17 at least have came to nothing before. Still, it's a development to watch.
 

pkcasimir

Member
Following previous stories about Argentinian procurement of Kfirs, M2000s, Gripens and Su-24's, Argentina and China have signed an agreement to form a working group to study the possible introduction of the JF-17 or J-10B into Argentinas air force.

Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360

If the option is exercised, a transfer of 14 aircraft is expected.

Unlike previous stories this one might actually occur considering Argentina/China seem to be cooperating more closely, however such talks with China about the JF-17 at least have came to nothing before. Still, it's a development to watch.
Argentina is broke and can't pay for any aircraft. So broke that the only thing keeping Argentina afloat is an $11 billion currency swap arranged last July with China, her second largest trading partner. I see this as a sop the Chinese gave to Fernandez so she could strut and continue to threaten over the Falklands (Malvinas) to distract from the fact that Argentina's economy is a mess..This isn't the forum to get into the mess that is Argentina and her President but I don't see this going anywhere.
 

Aussie optimist

New Member
Following previous stories about Argentinian procurement of Kfirs, M2000s, Gripens and Su-24's, Argentina and China have signed an agreement to form a working group to study the possible introduction of the JF-17 or J-10B into Argentinas air force.

Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360

If the option is exercised, a transfer of 14 aircraft is expected.

Unlike previous stories this one might actually occur considering Argentina/China seem to be cooperating more closely, however such talks with China about the JF-17 at least have came to nothing before. Still, it's a development to watch.

If Argentina did acquire the J10b I wonder how this would affect the uk typhoon numbers on the Falklands. Even more interesting is how Argentina would use the new capability. Would they rattle the sabre or actually actively seek to start a falklands war part 2.
 
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tonnyc

Active Member
It is very doubtful that Argentina will get the J-10. Pakistan has attempted to buy it several times and only gave up last year when they start hoping for J-31. Moreover, the PLAAF is replacing their older J-7 and others with the J-10. This adds up to some 300-400 J-10, ensuring that Chengdu's J-10 production is fully booked for the next few years.

PLAAF would resist any plan for giving or even selling J-10. They consider the modernization of their own fleet to take priority. Pakistan would feel slighted if Argentina gets J-10. More so if it's given rather than sold. They will feel that China should have tried harder to sell the JF-17 to Argentina and that since they have been an ally longer and more faithfully, they are the ones who should get the J-10.

JF-17 is the more likely possibility. But even then it is not certain. After all, the 2013 offer went nowhere. Who knows about this time.
 

StobieWan

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If Argentina did acquire the J10b I wonder how this would affect the uk typhoon numbers on the Falklands. Even more interesting is how Argentina would use the new capability. Would they rattle the sabre or actually actively seek to start a falklands war part 2.
They have an awfully long way to go before they can even get these aircraft worked up - in terms of starting an FI2 conflict, they have no amphib capability, are slowly rebuilding their SSK fleet and have almost no AAR/Heavy lift. The entire Argentine navy got about 200 days or less at sea last year. That's less than some single ships do in a blue water navy like the USN or the MN for contrast.
 

RobWilliams

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Not concerned at all about the Falklands, if they started funding everything they needed (which is a lot of kit) today they wouldn't be good to go for at least a decade.


It just seemed like after a number of failed fighter acquisition procurement project which have failed either due to budgeting or political interference by the UK, they've turned to a provider which can offer attractive payment methods* and be able to offer a two-fingered-salute to the UK.

*last I heard they were willing to take agricultural goods as payment IIRC

There's a general election in Argentina this year, in October I think. Could shake things up.
 

swerve

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It's a presidential election. The one thing about it which is certain is that by the end of the year Ms Fernandez de Kirchner will not be president. The constitution forbids her from standing this time.
 

harryriedl

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They have an awfully long way to go before they can even get these aircraft worked up - in terms of starting an FI2 conflict, they have no amphib capability, are slowly rebuilding their SSK fleet and have almost no AAR/Heavy lift. The entire Argentine navy got about 200 days or less at sea last year. That's less than some single ships do in a blue water navy like the USN or the MN for contrast.
As far as I'm aware the SSK activity has been non existent for the last decade. Everything else rings true as well. Even if a speculative JF17 were to introduced wouldn't it have the same range issues as the rest of the fleet(for decent combat range that far from Argentina wouldn't you be looking at Su30 class fighters) plus the adaptation to Russian and Chinese equipment.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
If Argentina's planned purchase of several KC-390s (with Argentinean-made parts) goes ahead, & they get AAR kit for them (e.g. from Bedek - Cobham is not available as a supplier), even the JF-17 will give them more aircraft time over the Falklands than they can currently get with perhaps one out of their two very old KC-130s operational.
 

RobWilliams

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It's a presidential election. The one thing about it which is certain is that by the end of the year Ms Fernandez de Kirchner will not be president. The constitution forbids her from standing this time.
I didn't mean if CFK would remain in power, I meant the type of person who replaces her could either echo her policies or bin them depending on their political adgenda. That's something i cannot comment on.
 

ngatimozart

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Well it's one thing acquiring the aircraft but a different thing operating and sustaining them over a long period of time. With the economic climate of Argentina, one would have to wonder if the Argentine Air Force would have the financial resourcing available to operate the aircraft. The question has to be asked: What other Argentine Defence capabilities and / or govt expenditure would have to be sacrificed for this capability?
 

StobieWan

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Economically, apart from defaulting the crap out of the rest of the world, Argentina's economy isn't bad - their cash situation is fairly solid I believe - so they could spend a fair amount on defence without too much effort.

Their main issue in the past seems to have been political - the lack of will to spend money on the forces - and considering their role in the history of Argentina it's possible the civilian government isn't keen to strengthen them.
 

RobWilliams

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Interesting article from DefenseNews, although it's some anonymous Argentinian AF source it seems to draw logical conclusions.

Argentina Eyes Second-Hand Kfirs To Replace Mirages

JF-17 binned because costs of adding Western avionics and other mods* raised costs. Gripen binned too because although studies have found suitable non-UK components, costs to modify the airframe, test and certify the new aircraft made the costs too high.

Reportedly it's back to the Kfir. Don't get me wrong, there's been another half dozen articles saying 'No no no, it's THIS one they're getting' so I'm not saying it's a definite, but I until now there's not been much chatter about the details of the JF-17/Gripen deals. The speculation has been mostly on point, however.

*arent Pakistani JF-17s more Westernised than Chinese variants?
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting article from DefenseNews, although it's some anonymous Argentinian AF source it seems to draw logical conclusions.

Argentina Eyes Second-Hand Kfirs To Replace Mirages

JF-17 binned because costs of adding Western avionics and other mods* raised costs. Gripen binned too because although studies have found suitable non-UK components, costs to modify the airframe, test and certify the new aircraft made the costs too high.

Reportedly it's back to the Kfir. Don't get me wrong, there's been another half dozen articles saying 'No no no, it's THIS one they're getting' so I'm not saying it's a definite, but I until now there's not been much chatter about the details of the JF-17/Gripen deals. The speculation has been mostly on point, however.

*arent Pakistani JF-17s more Westernised than Chinese variants?
I believe so Italian radars at least. I thought the Kfir deal was shut down to UK pressure. Their is also the issue of payment whether in kind or finance in Argentinians hunt for a new fighter.
 

tonnyc

Active Member
*arent Pakistani JF-17s more Westernised than Chinese variants?
Pardon the digression, folks. Just going to answer Rob a bit.

All the talk about Westernization, AFAIK, fizzled because of cost concerns. Confirmed Western JF-17 components are Martin-Baker ejection seat and a French oxygen regulation system. Grifo radar didn't happen and Chinese KLJ-7 was selected for the mass production version. Pakistani sources differ on how much Western components will be used for JF-17 Block 2. I am not going to speculate on those.

By the way, where did you read about why JF-17 is binned by the Argentinians? I got no dog in this but would like to read up on what the Argentinians think about their air force modernization.
 

RobWilliams

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Pardon the digression, folks. Just going to answer Rob a bit.

All the talk about Westernization, AFAIK, fizzled because of cost concerns. Confirmed Western JF-17 components are Martin-Baker ejection seat and a French oxygen regulation system. Grifo radar didn't happen and Chinese KLJ-7 was selected for the mass production version. Pakistani sources differ on how much Western components will be used for JF-17 Block 2. I am not going to speculate on those.

By the way, where did you read about why JF-17 is binned by the Argentinians? I got no dog in this but would like to read up on what the Argentinians think about their air force modernization.
I was wondering because I had an impression PAF JF-17 were more Western (based on gut feeling) but reportedly Argentina seemed to want even more Westernisation.

It's in the Janes link a couple of posts above :)
 

MastanKhan

New Member
I was wondering because I had an impression PAF JF-17 were more Western (based on gut feeling) but reportedly Argentina seemed to want even more Westernisation.

It's in the Janes link a couple of posts above :)
Hi,

For the JF 17 BLK 3---paf is going to add aesa---, It is between either the Chinese or the Italians. Paf says that it is happy with the KLJ right now. They may stick with the Chinese version of aesa---and the paf is happy with the RD93 as well.

For the JF 17---supposedly the Chinese refused to sell them the anti ship missiles---but the bottomline is that the Argentinians don't have funds. They don't have an infra structure to fight a war in Falkland.

A possible issue came up in installing Israeli electronics and European engine in the aircraft. That raised up the cost. So there are a lot more problems in this procurement.
 

tonnyc

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Aw, I was hoping that you have a more direct source, e.g., articles from Argentinian publications. Thanks though.
 

RobWilliams

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It's tricky to follow accurately because seemingly the Argentine Govt doesn't publish a whole lot about their fighter procurement. I'm checking Argentine aviation forums to try find out what's happening but they have the same sources that we do.

As an aside, here's an interesting article.

Argentina chooses Israel over China for fighter jet purchase|WCT

Although this article says that it was cheaper than the Kfirs, there's a funny line that - according to Russia - China wouldn't sell AShMs to Argentina due to UK diplomatic pressure and that's why they didn't buy :rolleyes:
 
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