Argentina Air Force News and Discussion

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Not entirely certain how they can finance F-16s when inflation in Argentina is so high. Those F-16s are well over 25+ years old and would suffer similar fate of their A-4 Fighting Hawks with short service life.

 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not entirely certain how they can finance F-16s when inflation in Argentina is so high. Those F-16s are well over 25+ years old and would suffer similar fate of their A-4 Fighting Hawks with short service life.


Looks like the Danish jets are spoken for - they're being donated, along with the spare Netherlands jets to Ukraine.

I suspect any jets they do buy will end up sitting on an apron somewhere, gathering moss, with no spares or flying time.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
What is interesting to me is the US government's willingness to offer the F-16s in the first place.

US geopolitical concerns (on the possibility of China getting a toehold in Argentina) trumps UK's sanctions or concerns. Of course, the F-16 has any UK made components so that made any sanction on that basis impractical.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
What is interesting to me is the US government's willingness to offer the F-16s in the first place.

US geopolitical concerns (on the possibility of China getting a toehold in Argentina) trumps UK's sanctions or concerns. Of course, the F-16 has any UK made components so that made any sanction on that basis impractical.

The US has always had to tread a line balanced around their own wider interests and those of their allies - nations do not have friends, they have interests after all.

Transferring F16 without a BVR missile, in the absence of Argentina having air to air refueling capability, it makes little difference to the security of the Falkland Islands overall. Right now, Argentina's economy is in dire trouble and their armed forces, particularly and Navy and Air force are greatly depleted. That may suit us well, but re-arming them by forging closer ties with the US would likely suit the US better than letting China expand in influence further.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
The US has always had to tread a line balanced around their own wider interests and those of their allies - nations do not have friends, they have interests after all.

Transferring F16 without a BVR missile, in the absence of Argentina having air to air refueling capability, it makes little difference to the security of the Falkland Islands overall. Right now, Argentina's economy is in dire trouble and their armed forces, particularly and Navy and Air force are greatly depleted. That may suit us well, but re-arming them by forging closer ties with the US would likely suit the US better than letting China expand in influence further.
The US are not merely concerned about the Argentinians access to modern capabilities such as BVR missiles, ASHMs that could come with a China package, but also Argentina buying these on a Chinese credit line, and hence creating a more enduring presence in the region. We saw the similar US reaction when Uruguay was considering Chinese OPVs.

This could have been avoided if UK had allowed Argentina to go ahead with various attempted acquisitions, whether used Spanish Mirage F1M to used Kfirs. Even the KAI F/A-50 would hardly threaten British interests in the Falklands. Those platforms (if they had the budget for them to behind with) had the same deficiencies in terms of limited range and controlled access to advanced western munitions.

If the embargo is about sticking it to the Argies and to remind them to hands off the Falklands, it worked for decades, aided by an forever-ailing Argentinian economy. But one wonders about the future when there are alternative suppliers (China, first and for most, plus the second tier powers like Turkey, India) of equipment and credit.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Not entirely certain how they can finance F-16s when inflation in Argentina is so high. Those F-16s are well over 25+ years old and would suffer similar fate of their A-4 Fighting Hawks with short service life.

The A-4ARs are modified/refurbished A-4Ms, and the last ones of these are built in 1979. Second hands F-16s from Denmark or the Netherlands are not only more capable, but also younger (built after 1979) and they got the MLU.
So these F-16s are indeed old and maybe also worn out, but probably still good enough for around 2 decades of service.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The US are not merely concerned about the Argentinians access to modern capabilities such as BVR missiles, ASHMs that could come with a China package, but also Argentina buying these on a Chinese credit line, and hence creating a more enduring presence in the region. We saw the similar US reaction when Uruguay was considering Chinese OPVs.

This could have been avoided if UK had allowed Argentina to go ahead with various attempted acquisitions, whether used Spanish Mirage F1M to used Kfirs. Even the KAI F/A-50 would hardly threaten British interests in the Falklands. Those platforms (if they had the budget for them to behind with) had the same deficiencies in terms of limited range and controlled access to advanced western munitions.

If the embargo is about sticking it to the Argies and to remind them to hands off the Falklands, it worked for decades, aided by an forever-ailing Argentinian economy. But one wonders about the future when there are alternative suppliers (China, first and for most, plus the second tier powers like Turkey, India) of equipment and credit.
As for the future, Turkey and India can’t help the Argentina economy any time soon, only China might be able to along with a ton strings attached. Turkey and India have little to gain with minor military kit sales to an impoverished Argentina if it effects relations with the EU, US, and UK wrt trade and their own military acquisitions.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
As for the future, Turkey and India can’t help the Argentina economy any time soon, only China might be able to along with a ton strings attached. Turkey and India have little to gain with minor military kit sales to an impoverished Argentina if it effects relations with the EU, US, and UK wrt trade and their own military acquisitions.
I wonder why Argentina's economy is such a mess for decades and that their defence budget is so limited. Even Third World countries with a lot of corruption like Myanmar or the Philippines are able to acquire small amounts of modern defence equipment.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I wonder why Argentina's economy is such a mess for decades and that their defence budget is so limited. Even Third World countries with a lot of corruption like Myanmar or the Philippines are able to acquire small amounts of modern defence equipment.
Suffered 6 military coups between 1930 and 1976, the last one leading to the misadventure in the Malvina's (Falklands), it would be very hard for any Country to get their economy under control under those circumstances. It is a very long history of mismanagement and corruption and no one is prepared to invest in a country that should have had so much going for it, a good population density in a large country (8th largest) with huge natural resources. They p****d off the wrong country in 1982, one with far too many friends, and are still paying the price 40 years later.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Argentina economic case throughout decades already become staples in nearly every Economics and Business schools. Argentina is become classic empirical case of Middle Income Trap.

Argentina in paper especially in early 20th century have many similar comparison with Australia and Canada. All three have basically European settlers society, unlike Brazil up North, Argentina have temprete climate that more suitables for European (just like Australia, Canada or NZ). Argentina also have large agro industrial base especially cattle economies in the first half of last century, similar to Australia and NZ.

However that's the comparison stop. Just like most South/Latin American nations, Argentina also experienced military junta and dictators. However compare to Brazil, somehow Argentina not able to turn around their economy base toward more industrialized balance. Their 'democracies' economic policies after the last Military Junta tople not long after their miss calculate British response in Falkland, should at least give more confidence to the investors.

However succesive government after democracies return, simply so far fail to give enough boost of confidence toward sustainable growth. Market and Investors simply not confince the governments able to handle Argentina main problem, which is Inflation. Even during better time in during 2003-2008, inflation in Argentina also still higher in the neighborhood. Argentina should be one of leading food producers, however they don't manage to handle domestic food prices.

This resulted creditors loosing confidence, and if creditors loosing confidence, so do investors. Thus the cycles of problem loans and not enough investments to jump start economy continues toward this days.

As for Armed Forces Investments, I just see the succesive civilians governments after last military junta, simply do not want to invest much in Military. For me it is just like the civilians still want to punish the military after all this time.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I wonder why Argentina's economy is such a mess for decades and that their defence budget is so limited. Even Third World countries with a lot of corruption like Myanmar or the Philippines are able to acquire small amounts of modern defence equipment.
It's not just the economy (which should be booming: the fact that it isn't is due to dysfunctional politics), but the political reaction to military rule in 1976-83. The military government decided to "reorganise" society, by killing those who were seen as enemies. The freedom given to the soldiers tasked with this was exploited by them to rape, steal, torture & murder. The armed forces also showed themselves utterly incompetent at running the economy, foreign affairs (starting a war by almost comical wishful thinking, misinterpreting all the evidence as meaning what they wanted it to mean & acting on their fantasies - leading to a rude awakening), & even what was supposed to be their speciality, fighting a war.

After the armed forces gave up & handed power back to civilians, they were seen (correctly) as the main military threat to Argentina (none of its neighbours were any threat) & successive governments have starved them of money to limit their ability to do harm. Also, the soldiers have spent what little money they've had ineffectively, favouring spending on such things as generous pensions for officers & their families over even basic maintenance of equipment, leading to such humiliations as a destroyer sinking at its moorings, & a submarine failing to come up from a dive.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
The transfer is still proceeding. They have taken the next step by filing the Third Party Transfer (TPT) documents.


Denmark is also committed to transfer 19 F-16s to Ukraine. The entire F-16 fleet of Denmark consist of 48 + 14 spares (62).

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member

This is a more nuanced view. While is proceeding on an administrative level, there has been no budget allocated in 2024.
 

Redshift

Active Member
The transfer is still proceeding. They have taken the next step by filing the Third Party Transfer (TPT) documents.


Denmark is also committed to transfer 19 F-16s to Ukraine. The entire F-16 fleet of Denmark consist of 48 + 14 spares (62).

One potential problem might be the ejector seats and or electronic control mechanisms.

A British firm Martin Baker supplied a lot of equipment in that area and a quick Google search shows Martin Baker electronicd on some F16s, I have no idea how widespread that is amongst all F16s
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
One potential problem might be the ejector seats and or electronic control mechanisms.

A British firm Martin Baker supplied a lot of equipment in that area and a quick Google search shows Martin Baker electronicd on some F16s, I have no idea how widespread that is amongst all F16s
As far as i know, F-16s were equipped with ACES II ejector seats, manufactured by Collins Aerospace (a division of Raytheon Technologies). But maybe you are right and there are some Martin-Baker components installed.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
So Argentina got ex Denmark F-16, seems there's enough 2nd hand F-16 ex Euro that's not going to Ukrainian. I remember certain MinDef official from certain ASEAN country that say no 2nd hand F-16 available, as all 2nd hand F-16 available (especially ex NATO that's been done MLU upgrade) slote for Ukrainian.

The 2nd hand F-16 is competing with 2nd hand Mirage 2K for interim fighters, while this particular SEA Nation wait for their brand new Rafale and presumably F-15EX. The ex NATO F-16 MLU ones (as the one that Argentine being offer) are the ones being put against ex Gulf Kingdoms Mirage 2K offer.

Perhaps US doesn't want to sell 2nd hand F-16 and graciously give the market to the Frenchie for 2nd hand Mirage 2K.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
So Argentina got ex Denmark F-16, seems there's enough 2nd hand F-16 ex Euro that's not going to Ukrainian. I remember certain MinDef official from certain ASEAN country that say no 2nd hand F-16 available, as all 2nd hand F-16 available (especially ex NATO that's been done MLU upgrade) slote for Ukrainian.

The 2nd hand F-16 is competing with 2nd hand Mirage 2K for interim fighters, while this particular SEA Nation wait for their brand new Rafale and presumably F-15EX. The ex NATO F-16 MLU ones (as the one that Argentine being offer) are the ones being put against ex Gulf Kingdoms Mirage 2K offer.

Perhaps US doesn't want to sell 2nd hand F-16 and graciously give the market to the Frenchie for 2nd hand Mirage 2K.
Those European F-16s are much more older and worn out than Qatari Mirage 2000s. But still i also believe it is better for that certain ASEAN-country to add new F-16s instead of F-15s.
 
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