ADF General discussion thread

[Morgo]

Interesting but it will be wait and see.

Is it a win. Don't count your chickens before they hatch or your winnings before your emu crosses the finish line.

If not a win, it appears to be at least be a try scored (assuming no concessions made behind the scenes). A proper hard fought four pointer, not one of those weird 5 pt ones you Kiwis are in to.

Edit: Added smiley face to show sarcasm before I get banned permanently

 

[ngatimozart]

If not a win, it appears to be at least be a try scored (assuming no concessions made behind the scenes). A proper hard fought four pointer, not one of those weird 5 pt ones you Kiwis are in to.

Us Kiwis play the Holy Games as its played in heaven. God is All Black Cap #1.

I wouldn't even call it a try now a penalty goal. Maybe a free kick out of your own in goal area. It's a game within a game within a game, if you get the analogy. It's a bit like what happens in the front row of the scrum and we all know what goes on in there when the Ref is side tracked.

 

[oldsig127]

From what Richard Marles said, China hosted the meeting, so l presume they invited Australia. Marles had previously stated he wouldn't be seeking a meeting and that seems to be the case

Predictable. New Government is seen as an opportunity to steamroll Australia in to "correct" behaviour. Start friendly then see how far to push.

oldsig127

 

[StingrayOZ]

Predictable. New Government is seen as an opportunity to steamroll Australia in to "correct" behaviour. Start friendly then see how far to push.

The official Chinese line will be that it is always others that a naughty and changing, never china.

They could take the opportunity to reset the relationship. However, actual behavior seems to appear to be increasing in aggressiveness. There really isn't any mechanism where china comes back clearly worse off from these ever escalating incidents, and I imagine they play well internally within the party.

From Australia's point of view, the new government will be skeptical as all hell of China. There have been immediate incidents directly with China that are escalations. The P8's and the pacific. So much for a reset. More likely China probing to find a weakness in democracy during a change of government, something they see as a huge weakness. They expected Australia to have more issues than they have changing governments.

But there are a few things that it could do that work in chinas favour like the coal ban and the food ban. Right now there is a huge shortfall of agricultural goods and energy.

 

[ngatimozart]

The official Chinese line will be that it is always others that a naughty and changing, never china.

They could take the opportunity to reset the relationship. However, actual behavior seems to appear to be increasing in aggressiveness. There really isn't any mechanism where china comes back clearly worse off from these ever escalating incidents, and I imagine they play well internally within the party.

From Australia's point of view, the new government will be skeptical as all hell of China. There have been immediate incidents directly with China that are escalations. The P8's and the pacific. So much for a reset. More likely China probing to find a weakness in democracy during a change of government, something they see as a huge weakness. They expected Australia to have more issues than they have changing governments.

But there are a few things that it could do that work in chinas favour like the coal ban and the food ban. Right now there is a huge shortfall of agricultural goods and energy.

Yep, they are playing the bully boy aggressive game and the rhetoric just appears to be getting more jingoistic. This is their Defence Minister during his speech at Shangri La in the weekend.

China vows to ‘fight to the end’ to prevent Taiwan’s independence | News | Al Jazeera

 

[Redlands18]

Australia and New Zealand are sending their largest warships to RIMPAC - Naval News

Australia and New Zealand’s largest warships are on their way to participate in the 28th biannual Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC) exercise. HMAS Canberra was the first to deploy, followed by HMNZS Aotearoa.

www.navalnews.com

Australia and New Zealand have announced their contributions to RIMPAC 2022.
Australia
HMAS Canberra
HMAS Warramunga
HMAS Supply
possibly one Collins Class SSK
2 P-8A
New Zealand
HMNZS Aotearoa
Also a Platoon from the Tongan Armed Forces will embark on Canberra.

In other Exercise news, HMA ships Sydney and Perth will participate in Exercise Pacific Dragon with the USA, Japan and ROK, a BMD exercise.

 

[Massive]

Dutton has put some pressure by putting this out there.

Regardless of politics Minister Dutton was a very experienced minister that got things done.

I also believe that when he made statements as a minister, he only made them if he believed he could deliver. As a result, I suspect that he did believe that he could get two Virginias built in the US (given the timelines he talked to in office). How that would have played out who knows.

Regards,

Massive

 

[At lakes]

Australia paid France millions more than necessary for cancelling subs

Australia overpaid French shipbuilder Naval Group hundreds of millions in compensation, but the bigger picture is rebuilding alliances to tackle China.

www.afr.com

Reports appearing in the digital media that Australia was only required to pay the French 90million euros/50million Australian as per written into the contract for the terminating the contract for the Subs, but agreed to pay the 835million. Who said money cant buy you friends.

 

[AndyinOz]

Anthony Albanese extends term of General Angus Campbell as Chief of the Defence Force Chief of the ADF General Angus Campbell, Vice Chief of the Defence Force David Johnston and Chief of Joint Operations Greg Bilton have all had their terms extended for a further two years by the new Federal government. It would appear that with the region and the wider world in a state of flux that the government or at least the Minister for Defence has come to the conclusion that they need to keep the leadership the same for the next two years

 

[Massive]

I thought that this piece was very thought provoking:

‘Disaster just around the corner’: Australia must not misread China’s deadly strategy

Australia and the West are continuing to miss the bigger picture about China’s imperialistic plans. Time is running out.

www.smh.com.au

I feel we need to be very careful not to be the ally tested in a freedom of navigation excercise or similar. May make sense to only conduct these operations in concert with US forces.

Would appreciate the thoughts of others here.

Regards,

Massive

 

[Stampede]

I thought that this piece was very thought provoking:

‘Disaster just around the corner’: Australia must not misread China’s deadly strategy

Australia and the West are continuing to miss the bigger picture about China’s imperialistic plans. Time is running out.

www.smh.com.au

I feel we need to be very careful not to be the ally tested in a freedom of navigation excercise or similar. May make sense to only conduct these operations in concert with US forces.

Would appreciate the thoughts of others here.

Regards,

Massive

"Accidents" have been alluded to in the past.
Non US nations would be the likely candidates to make a statement of CCP commitment to enforce their commitment of making the local maritime domain their own,
The SMH article is an opinion piece, but it does ring true with the confrontational dynamics's of the region.

So

Crazy idea, but could the P-8A be integrated with the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

You give me Chaff, I can potentially give you something back!!!!!!!


Cheers S

 

[At lakes]

Crazy idea, but could the P-8A be integrated with the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

You give me Chaff, I can potentially give you something back!!!!!!!


Cheers S

Not as silly as it sounds I believe the RAF managed to integrate a couple of sidewinders on a Nimrod during the Falklands War

https://flic.kr/p/zSWa4T

 

[InterestedParty]

Much has been written and spoken in the media in the last few days as our PM is attending the NATO conference and going on to France to "repair" our relationship with France.
France is spoken of as a "great power" in the Pacific and I cant help but wonder if I am missing something significant.
France is obviously a great power in Europe and owns some property in the Pacific at which I believe it stations a patrol boat and occasionally sends one or more larger ships, for which I am thankful.
Is France truly a great power in the Pacific or Indo-Pacific. I really hope it is, it is good to see that Europe is recognising the importance of our area to their future.

@InterestedParty This post has been moved from the NATO thread because it's Australian centric not NATO. It only mentions NATO once and that's in passing. In future please consider the appropriateness of post content to thread topics. Thanks.

Ngatimozart.

 

[Stampede]

Well written article in the Strategist today re the recent incident involving a RAAF P-8 and PLAAF fighter.

By accident or design—or designed accident? China’s unsafe air intercepts | The Strategist

On 26 May a J-16 fighter aircraft from the Peoples Liberational Army Air Force conducted an ‘unsafe’ interception of an Australian P-8A Poseidon routine surveillance flight above international waters. The Chinese fighter pulled alongside releasing ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

I had made mention of a kinetic response option by integrating a AAW missile on the P-8.
This would be an option of ultimate escalation.
In the grey zone of confrontation public perception will be important.

I recall Sea Shepard talking about the importance of video imagery in capturing events in remote locations.
"If it's not on video it didn't happen"

I wonder if the RAAF could mount a camera on it's aircraft to capture both the plane and whats happening in the local vicinity.
Mounted up high on the aircraft's tail, imagery of a hostile jet flying in dangerous proximity and releasing chaff would be an important weapon in the information war.

Just a thought


Cheers S

 

[Massive]

Well written article in the Strategist today re the recent incident involving a RAAF P-8 and PLAAF fighter.

By accident or design—or designed accident? China’s unsafe air intercepts | The Strategist

On 26 May a J-16 fighter aircraft from the Peoples Liberational Army Air Force conducted an ‘unsafe’ interception of an Australian P-8A Poseidon routine surveillance flight above international waters. The Chinese fighter pulled alongside releasing ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

I wonder if the RAAF could mount a camera on it's aircraft to capture both the plane and whats happening in the local vicinity.
Mounted up high on the aircraft's tail, imagery of a hostile jet flying in dangerous proximity and releasing chaff would be an important weapon in the information war.

I for one am strongly aligned to this. Less risk of inadvertently kicking off a war.

Regards,

Massive

 

[DDG38]

I recall Sea Shepard talking about the importance of video imagery in capturing events in remote locations.
"If it's not on video it didn't happen"
I wonder if the RAAF could mount a camera on it's aircraft to capture both the plane and whats happening in the local vicinity.
Mounted up high on the aircraft's tail, imagery of a hostile jet flying in dangerous proximity and releasing chaff would be an important weapon in the information war.

The Poseidon's primary role is maritime surveillance. They would have plenty of collected data (both visual and electronic) to prove the incident happened. Only problem is that most of it would be classified and thus not for public release. Such is the way of international relations. Would love to see the PLAAF come out and try the same sort of tactic with a flight of fast movers.

 

[Stampede]

The Poseidon's primary role is maritime surveillance. They would have plenty of collected data (both visual and electronic) to prove the incident happened. Only problem is that most of it would be classified and thus not for public release. Such is the way of international relations. Would love to see the PLAAF come out and try the same sort of tactic with a flight of fast movers.

No doubt they have some clever kit.
As suggested, if it's not on video it didn't happen.

In this media age we are all very visual.
The event captured and available for the public would be a major deterrence.
The classified stuff stays classified.

Cheers S

 

[StingrayOZ]

Such video evidence would likely stir further heads at home. There isn't a need to do that currently. I think everyone at home is pretty convinced China is causing trouble, that defence is critical, that things are heating up in SCS and incidents like this are not good. China probably wanted a reaction, that is why they do these things.

Remember this happened back in May. Its not like they forgot about it.

I do wonder how we would escort such flights in the future if required. I wonder if a kc30 and short wing of fighters would be doable out of Philippines?

Wonder what we could stretch the range of the F-18 SH with some of those conformal fuel tanks.
In that kind of duty, may be nice not to have stealthy aircraft escorting.

I wonder where the plane came from, one of the island bases? I wonder how long it took them to scramble the plane and intercept the p8. I wonder what Australia learned from this? I wonder what a flight hour cost of a J-16 is compared to a P8?

 

[ngatimozart]

Such video evidence would likely stir further heads at home. There isn't a need to do that currently. I think everyone at home is pretty convinced China is causing trouble, that defence is critical, that things are heating up in SCS and incidents like this are not good. China probably wanted a reaction, that is why they do these things.

Remember this happened back in May. Its not like they forgot about it.

I do wonder how we would escort such flights in the future if required. I wonder if a kc30 and short wing of fighters would be doable out of Philippines?

Wonder what we could stretch the range of the F-18 SH with some of those conformal fuel tanks.
In that kind of duty, may be nice not to have stealthy aircraft escorting.

I wonder where the plane came from, one of the island bases? I wonder how long it took them to scramble the plane and intercept the p8. I wonder what Australia learned from this? I wonder what a flight hour cost of a J-16 is compared to a P8?

I would think that a fighter escort would be somewhat provocative and play into CCP/PRC hands, especially propaganda wise. There are certain pieces of kit on the P-8A that can make it difficult for an annoying aircraft to fly if it's particularly close in. Even the use of its maritime search radar at full power would be enough to cause electronic glitches on the offending aircraft by cooking certain circuits and what not. Mightn't do the pilot's health and reproductive capabilities much good either. But said pilot paid his money and took his chances.

 

[Stampede]

I would think that a fighter escort would be somewhat provocative and play into CCP/PRC hands, especially propaganda wise. There are certain pieces of kit on the P-8A that can make it difficult for an annoying aircraft to fly if it's particularly close in. Even the use of its maritime search radar at full power would be enough to cause electronic glitches on the offending aircraft by cooking certain circuits and what not. Mightn't do the pilot's health and reproductive capabilities much good either. But said pilot paid his money and took his chances.

Yes its an awkward dance.
When are you being too robust or not robust enough!
Provocative or submissive!
Young folk flying sophisticated planes shouldering a lot of responsibility.
Hats off to their courage and professionalism.

Cheers S