Indonesia: 'green water navy'
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
As you said..."warisboring.com" sounds like a website from a leftish political group and some hippies.
But indeed, operational problems are often caused by budget cuts and unwilling politicians.Maybe with the Type 209 our navy has only submarines from '70 design, armed with only mines and classic SUT-torpedoes, but at least it is from a proven design. And if its equipped with modern stuff like the CSU-90 sonar system, then i think these boats are quite usable.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesia selects communication, sonar suite from Wärtsilä ELAC Nautik for Nagapasa submarines | Jane's 360
Upps..Edit:
Just goes through Wartsila website..just realise..altough Wartsila is in Marine Engine and power supply..but in 2015 acquired ELAC which made them player in Sonar industry.
Sonars & Naval Acoustics - Wärtsilä ELAC Nautik - market leader of underwater acoustics
Upps..Edit:
Just goes through Wartsila website..just realise..altough Wartsila is in Marine Engine and power supply..but in 2015 acquired ELAC which made them player in Sonar industry.
Sonars & Naval Acoustics - Wärtsilä ELAC Nautik - market leader of underwater acoustics
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I thought the Nagapasa boats were equipped with the CSU-90 sonarsystem from Atlas Elektronik GmbH....
Something else...about the Trimaran project from PT Lundin.
There were in the past four boats ordered, but after KRI Klewang 625, the project was cancelled. What is the reason behind this?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Changes in Naval Leadership, Naval Priority, the specs not meeting expectation..well our defence planning still based on opportunity and trial..
As the sonar suite..I also tought they go with Atlas like previous 209 (Cakra class)..Rumours been said they go with Wartsila do to better packages..
As the sonar suite..I also tought they go with Atlas like previous 209 (Cakra class)..Rumours been said they go with Wartsila do to better packages..
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you Ananda.
Just read an article from 31-01-2018:
According to Seoul, Jakarta Affirm Cooperation on Fighter Jet, Submarine Development :
"South Korea and Indonesia have renewed a commitment to joint development of 4.5 generation jet fighters and submarines ........"
Joint development of submarines?
I expect they mean another batch of the Type 209-1400 boats built under licence?
Just read an article from 31-01-2018:
According to Seoul, Jakarta Affirm Cooperation on Fighter Jet, Submarine Development :
"South Korea and Indonesia have renewed a commitment to joint development of 4.5 generation jet fighters and submarines ........"
Joint development of submarines?
I expect they mean another batch of the Type 209-1400 boats built under licence?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well let's see where the budget goes..and present mindef is not known for good budget planing. The KFX/IFX instalment fiasco and the military satelite downpayment that missed in final budget allocation, shown their still have problem on budgetary discipline. Thank god we have relative strong and dicipline Finance Ministry that guarding overall national budget execution.
Techically wise, like the Makasar class LPD case, PAL will go conservatively with the known design that they got license with and developed from that. Yes, there are talk on upgrading Changbogo/DSME 209-1400 design, with slightly bigger dimension (by) adding AIP modules and lithium ion batery. Still there are also 'genius' planner in Mindef that wants to move on to new design.
Again this in the end will come down on how much budget that available for second batch submarine program. If they go to completely new design (say modified 214), then means additional budget must be set asside to provide additional 'learning' curve for PAL. My guess PAL it self wants to harness their Submarine proficiencies with second batch of modified 209 design that they are already more familiar with.
There are also talk that switching to 214 will be feasible and not going to be significant additional learning curve, since there are many subsystem similarities between 'late' 209 design (like DSME 209) with 214 design. This argument based on learning curve that Korean and Turkey shipyard doing when they are swithching from 209 to 214. Honestly, I don't know how credible that argument is.
Anyway, all the talk seem's narowing on modified 209 or 214 design as next batch of submarine that PAL will be involved in, on the matter of learning curve. Despite all the talk with French DCNS on modified Scorpene design cooperation with PAL, I will be surprise if Mindef and PAL goes with DCNS. Simply cause it will cost much more I believe for PAL to addept to go with DCNS design, rather stick to 209 or even 214.
Techically wise, like the Makasar class LPD case, PAL will go conservatively with the known design that they got license with and developed from that. Yes, there are talk on upgrading Changbogo/DSME 209-1400 design, with slightly bigger dimension (by) adding AIP modules and lithium ion batery. Still there are also 'genius' planner in Mindef that wants to move on to new design.
Again this in the end will come down on how much budget that available for second batch submarine program. If they go to completely new design (say modified 214), then means additional budget must be set asside to provide additional 'learning' curve for PAL. My guess PAL it self wants to harness their Submarine proficiencies with second batch of modified 209 design that they are already more familiar with.
There are also talk that switching to 214 will be feasible and not going to be significant additional learning curve, since there are many subsystem similarities between 'late' 209 design (like DSME 209) with 214 design. This argument based on learning curve that Korean and Turkey shipyard doing when they are swithching from 209 to 214. Honestly, I don't know how credible that argument is.
Anyway, all the talk seem's narowing on modified 209 or 214 design as next batch of submarine that PAL will be involved in, on the matter of learning curve. Despite all the talk with French DCNS on modified Scorpene design cooperation with PAL, I will be surprise if Mindef and PAL goes with DCNS. Simply cause it will cost much more I believe for PAL to addept to go with DCNS design, rather stick to 209 or even 214.
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^^^ South Korea's battery technology is way more advanced than Indonesia's. We're capable of making Lithium-polymer batteries, but next gen Lithium-sulfur and Lithium-air batteries have twice the energy density or better. South Korea is actually one of the leaders in battery technology, having working prototypes for both types of battery. If either of these types prove reliable and economical, AIP may become unnecessary. This alone would be a big upgrade, especially considering that the present DSME 209 lacks an AIP module. It would essentially double their underwater endurance.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yep..future submarine collaboration on batery with Korea..I do recall from local media is part what being discussed. However I believe most conventional subs tech development seems see the advancement of lithium and AIP will be hand in hand. In sense present AIP already double the endurance, thus AIP with efficient lithium can theoritically quadruple conventional subs underwater performance in such it's clossing in SSN area but still with better noise signature.
That will make any litoral-green water subs class of 209, 214, 218, and scorpene much more endurance within their prefered operational area.
That will make any litoral-green water subs class of 209, 214, 218, and scorpene much more endurance within their prefered operational area.
Slight clarification, AIP and batteries are additive, not multiplicative, and thus the relationship is more complex. AIP fuel cells just have better energy density than batteries, and while batteries get better, so do fuel cells. But we are talking about the Indonesian Navy. Consider this promotional picture from way back in 2009.
Notice the submerged range of 410 nm at 4 knots. Roughly 4.25 days (4 days 6 hours). That's from the battery banks only. This will be from VRLA batteries. Between 2009 and now there are likely be some incremental improvements too, so we might get a slightly better than 410 nm submerged range. But energy density of today's high end VRLA batteries is about 100 Watthours/liter. Meanwhile, Lithium-polymer batteries have energy density of 250 Wh/L or better, depending on the exact type of battery. So merely switching from VRLA to lithium batteries will in theory improve the submerged range to over 1000 nm and over 10 days.
The plan back in 2013 was for a local battery factory to produce the LiPo batteries for the subs by 2025, which is coincidentally about the time when the VRLA batteries will have reached end-of-service-life and have to be swapped. So far so good. It makes sense. Let's hope the sanity faction continue to prevail.
Lithium-Sulfur battery is expected to have an energy density of 500 Wh/L. I'm not as familiar with Li-Air, so I can't talk much about it. Small scale Li-S prototypes so far varies from 350-600 Wh/L. But if the expected performance is achieved, then we get a submerged range of 2000 nm and over 21 days. Mind you, this is maybe two decades from now. While Li-S batteries might enter mass-production in 5 years, submarine reliability requirement is very high. Even lithium ion batteries will only enter actual use in submarines in 2020 (Japan's Soryu submarines), despite that we've been using it everywhere else for what, fifteen-twenty years?
Now, AIP is just better in performance. Ten years ago AIP+batteries already achieved two weeks. Using today's tech it's probably possible to get a month. In two decades maybe two months. But what are we going to use a month and 2800 nm submerged endurance for? The Indonesian Navy isn't going to play in the Pacific Ocean. And a lot of other navies are starting to make the same calculations. Japan's Soryu is going with just lithium-ion batteries, no AIP. If they use the space taken up by the AIP system they should be able to fit twice the number of batteries. Given that Japan is also one of the leaders in battery tech, I expect they can get 2-3 weeks submerged endurance at 4 knots. This is already very good.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Thanks for the clarification on that. I do agree for present litoral subs (209)..geeting better batteries is more important than AIP. My context on AIP and Lithium more on potential future collaboration with Korea after 209. If the collaboration resulted on bigger design, thus considered ocean going conventional subs..then AIP-Lithium combination perhaps is the answered on power banks issue.
I think future consideration for outside litoral submarine operation must be considered for Archipelago Country that sit in the cross hold of two ocean.
I think future consideration for outside litoral submarine operation must be considered for Archipelago Country that sit in the cross hold of two ocean.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
What a surprise, suddenly we got this acquisition.
Indonesian Navy to receive four ScanEagle UAVs in 2018
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
23 February 2018
Key Points
Complete article at Indonesian Navy to receive four ScanEagle UAVs in 2018 | Jane's 360
Nothing about any costs or prizes. But when i read this
"The UAV system and its associated equipment and launchers are provided under a grant by the US government under a capacity building programme for Southeast Asian navies known as the Maritime Security Initiative (MSI)."
I couldn't believe we will get this free of charge, its just too expensive, even without training and spareparts.
I also read on Norinco Type 90B: Self Propelled MLRS Terbaru Milik Armed Korps Marinir TNI AL – Indomiliter.com that the Korps Marinir is in the posession of four Chinese-made Norinco Self Propelled MLRS Type 90B. Whats the idea behind it? They already have several RM70s. Was this a gift from China, is the TNI-AL not really happy with the RM70, or was this just an experimental batch because the chinese ones are cheaper?
Also, how about this? Instruktur Norinco Latih Awak Kanon Type 90/35mm dan Radar AF902 FCS Korps Marinir – Indomiliter.com
Please dont call me a rasist, but chinese products are not really known for their reliability and endurance, so i wonder about their performance. From which i understand the 18 Type 85 twin 23 mm anti aircraft guns in use by TNI-AD are from a horrible quality.
Indonesian Navy to receive four ScanEagle UAVs in 2018
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International
23 February 2018
Key Points
- The Indonesian Navy will receive four ScanEagle UAVs in mid-2018
- Equipment is provided under a grant from the US government, which seeks to build maritime surveillance capabilities of Southeast Asian countries
Complete article at Indonesian Navy to receive four ScanEagle UAVs in 2018 | Jane's 360
Nothing about any costs or prizes. But when i read this
"The UAV system and its associated equipment and launchers are provided under a grant by the US government under a capacity building programme for Southeast Asian navies known as the Maritime Security Initiative (MSI)."
I couldn't believe we will get this free of charge, its just too expensive, even without training and spareparts.
I also read on Norinco Type 90B: Self Propelled MLRS Terbaru Milik Armed Korps Marinir TNI AL – Indomiliter.com that the Korps Marinir is in the posession of four Chinese-made Norinco Self Propelled MLRS Type 90B. Whats the idea behind it? They already have several RM70s. Was this a gift from China, is the TNI-AL not really happy with the RM70, or was this just an experimental batch because the chinese ones are cheaper?
Also, how about this? Instruktur Norinco Latih Awak Kanon Type 90/35mm dan Radar AF902 FCS Korps Marinir – Indomiliter.com
Please dont call me a rasist, but chinese products are not really known for their reliability and endurance, so i wonder about their performance. From which i understand the 18 Type 85 twin 23 mm anti aircraft guns in use by TNI-AD are from a horrible quality.
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I think it really depends on what is being bought but by and large things have improved a lot since the 1970's/80's.
On 'performance' one one still have a 'cheaply' made piece of equipment that performs as advertised :]
On The Scaneagles; it will be interesting to see if they're shore or ship operated.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
@Sandhi, just posted on AF thread on Jane's report that TNI-AU already in procurement process for 4 Chinese Wing Loong MALE UAV. Chinese armament is not this first time being procured. The Norinco MLRS by Marines, just like the other MLRS from Czech have one thing in common, all based on Russian 122mm MLRS that the Marines already familiar with. The local production on 122mm roket for used on those MLRS also big factor on choosing 122mm MLRS, since they are need to be compatible with the rockets geing developed locally.
Well so far from my understanding, the Chinese armaments mostly on what being called mid-range tech armament. The potential usage (with local license) of C-705 SSM and this Male UAV deal, are considered higher end on mid-range tech, but in my opinion still not considered higher end tech stuff by current standard.
The high end tech stuff are still being sourced from US, Europe and Russia. Those kind of equipment that will not being able to license or produced locally not untill some time in future. The Chinese products that being procured are the ones that local supplier (being in cooperation with Chinese or other supplier), are in process to produce their own within near-mid future.
In sense it's something that local facilities can handle problems, if something happen.
Well so far from my understanding, the Chinese armaments mostly on what being called mid-range tech armament. The potential usage (with local license) of C-705 SSM and this Male UAV deal, are considered higher end on mid-range tech, but in my opinion still not considered higher end tech stuff by current standard.
The high end tech stuff are still being sourced from US, Europe and Russia. Those kind of equipment that will not being able to license or produced locally not untill some time in future. The Chinese products that being procured are the ones that local supplier (being in cooperation with Chinese or other supplier), are in process to produce their own within near-mid future.
In sense it's something that local facilities can handle problems, if something happen.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing. Im looking to the image above, and in my opinion its quite remarkable.
On the A-position we see a Burevestnik A-220M 57mm naval artillery system, while the other KCR-60s use mainly chinese systems.
The "senjata kaliber 20 mm", i think they mean the H/PJ-13, which is a chinese copy of the Russian AK-630M in stealth turret, but that is actually a 30 mm CIWS, not a 20 mm.
And about the "shorad", it looks more like a rocket artillery system than a SHORAD-system, some kind of navalised NDL-40.
Also, if the range is almost 4500 km, how is it possible that the endurance at sea is only 5 days?
It may be that the maximum amount of potable water carried limits its time at sea. No all ships have the equipment to make fresh water from saltwater.
It is to be noted that illustration above are not "official" PT PAL KCR 60 render whatsoever. It was originally a render of KCR 60 by a local military forum member (Formil Kaskus) with username incoherent dated 28 January 2012. It was created based on modified KCR 40 design and projected equipment/armaments of KCR 60 project at that time.
Original thread on Kaskus:
http://www.kaskus. us:80/showthread.php?t=12780944 (dead link)
Original discussion on archive Kaskus:
https://archive.kaskus.co.id/thread/12780944/1 (note that most of image links are already dead)
Waybackmachine archive:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120131141411/http://www.kaskus.us:80/showthread.php?t=12780944
And the answer to your question: "No", according to the author that was an Rhan 122mm rocket launcer, not a shorad launcher.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
The latest update about the KCR-60 class, is about the launch of the first unit of Batch 2, so the fourth boat from this class.
PT.PAL INDONESIA(Persero)
https://jakartagreater.com/peluncuran-kcr-60m-kri-kerambit-627/
I wonder what the armament will be eventually, like the image above from post #735, or downgraded to "fitted for but not with" configuration.
PT.PAL INDONESIA(Persero)
https://jakartagreater.com/peluncuran-kcr-60m-kri-kerambit-627/
I wonder what the armament will be eventually, like the image above from post #735, or downgraded to "fitted for but not with" configuration.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesia selects electronic, anti-submarine warfare suite from Thales for Martadinata frigates | Jane's 360
Thales got more deal in Indonesian Navy Sigma based PKR Light Frigate. This again shown still Indonesian practise on launching ships as 'gradual work'.
Thales got more deal in Indonesian Navy Sigma based PKR Light Frigate. This again shown still Indonesian practise on launching ships as 'gradual work'.