German Navy

kato said:

BwPlan 2009 is [out].

Some of the Navy-related stuff in it, unsorted:

- RAM Block 2 planned introduction 2013
- Common Sea/Land Target Missile, starting 2014
- new anti-ship missiles for Helos, starting 2014
- new mine warfare AUV : dropped for now
- IDAS : development 2012, introduction 2016
- K131 corvettes: 2016+, no details yet
- K131 to "strengthen intervention forces" (read: first-line capability - ASW, light AAW?)
- MH90 (NH90 NFH) : 30 helos in plans, introduction 2015+
- Tornado : will continue in naval strike mission 2020+, upgraded
- EGV (Berlin class): third 2008+ building?
- advanced helo support for first two EGV cancelled
- change in fleet numbers until 2013: two new U212A, removal of all U206A
- commissioning of remaining 4 K130 until end of 2008 supposedly (!)
- Bundeswehr looking for a VTOL MALE UAV, navy purpose?
- Atlantique ELINT to be withdrawn as fast as possible
- Eurohawk demonstrator to be used for ELINT 2010+, production version 2013+
- DIRCM for P-3C far off in the future
- ARK "satisfies GGSV demand" until 2011

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Thanks this is very useful.
So if I get it right the German Navy will have 6 U212s in all ? Or 8 ? By the way, the Italian shipyards just got the definitive green light to build our 3rd and 4th U212As for delivery in 2015.

cheers

6, for now. Big parts of the Navy are lobbying for 8. As they're relatively cheap, well... might have some chances still. For construction after 2015 or so.

4x U212A Batch 1, in service
2x U212A Batch 2, currently building

Batch 2 will have some new stuff, including new comm and observation gear and better SOF insertion support through an actual diver lock. Probably not enough to call them U212B, so they keep the designation.

The U206A will probably all be retired by 2010. Current around 6-7 in service, numbers dropping quickly.

kato said:

6, for now. Big parts of the Navy are lobbying for 8. As they're relatively cheap, well... might have some chances still. For construction after 2015 or so.

4x U212A Batch 1, in service
2x U212A Batch 2, currently building

Batch 2 will have some new stuff, including new comm and observation gear and better SOF insertion support through an actual diver lock. Probably not enough to call them U212B, so they keep the designation.

The U206A will probably all be retired by 2010. Current around 6-7 in service, numbers dropping quickly.

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We are also fighting for another 2 beyond the 2 in service and 2 authorized for construction. In theory the 2 authorized replace our 5th and 6th Sauro class SSK, thus leaving open the replacement of the 7th and 8th Sauro at a later time. However with the economic crisis coming in nothing is certain. A shame as the U212 are excellent subs. Our Todaro is running exercises in the Atlantic with the USN as I write.

cheers

Replacement is essentially not so much in numbers, but instead in tonnage, when you look closely:

- six U212A have almost exactly (!) the same tonnage as the 18 U206 + 6 U205 Germany had at the end of the Cold War
- the current 4 U212A have the tonnage of 16 U206/U205, which is roughly as many as has been retired since (shortly before) introduction of the U212A.

Funding post-2016 hasn't been planned in full yet.

Procurement, roughly:
2017 - 0.9 billion under plan
2018 - 1.6 billion under plan
2019 - 2.8 billion under plan
2020 - 4.0 billion under plan
2021 - 5.0 billion under plan

This is because the big projects of all four services will be finished exactly by 2017. The Army might look for a new MBT around then, but for the most part, there's not a lot for Army and Airforce to spend additionally during that time. All the big stuff has long-lead planning, even for that period.

The Navy has a few likely projects for that time: 6 K131, 2 JSS, 3 surveillance ships, 4th A702, 2 (commercial) tankers. P-3C replacement perhaps, quite some investment in mine warfare highly likely. Still enough wiggle room for another 800 million or so for two subs.

Likely distribution of the Navy in the future, by my estimate (time around 2020):

Eingreifkräfte (Intervention Forces)

3 F124 large AAW frigates
4 F123 large ASW frigates
6 K131 corvettes (likely switch-around from K130)
4 U212A (Batch 1)
6 MIW units
4 organic fleet support units (1 A702, 3 A404)

Stabilisierungskräfte (Stabilization Forces)

4 F125 large sea control / ASuW / land-attack frigates
5 K130 patrol/ASuW corvettes (likely switch-around from K131)
2 U212A (Batch 2) (replacing current official 4 U206A)
9 MIW units
2 LPDs (JSS)
5 organic fleet support units (2 A702, 3 A404)

Unterstützungskräfte (Support Forces)

3 ELINT ships (unarmed)
4 MIW units (reconfigured as patrol units for SEK-M naval infantry)
4 fleet support units (2 A704, 2 ocean tugs - all civilian-manned)

Unrated Forces
... everything else (training boats, coastal support, harbour tugs etc)

Interestingly, this would present a large tear-down for the Stabilization Forces - from current 8 frigates, 10 FACs, 9 MIW units, 4 submarines, 6-7 auxiliaries - and that with a rather... numbers-intensive job in comparison to the intervention forces.

What news is there on the final configuration & armament of the F125?
What I've found on the Bundesmarine site is rather general, or old (e.g. a PDF from 2005, still talking of 155mm & MLRS), or both.

BTW - what's wrong with their web designers? The layout falls to pieces on Firefox. Has to be viewed in IE or Opera.

marine.de layout looks fine to me with Firefox 2 and Opera 9.5

The class (and first ship) will be named "Baden-Württemberg", after the state. That's sorta new, was decided in June. First ship in the German Navy with that name. Since, like the F123 and F124, they're large frigates, they're getting state names. Other three ships haven't been named yet. "Baden-Württemberg" will be commissioned around 2014.

A somewhat newer PDF is available [here on DMKN] (in German), from November 2007.

It lists some basic requirements:
- 5000 hours at sea per year; deployment time 2 years
- worldwide, all-climate deployment capability
- dockyard maintenance cycle 60 months

Crew:
- basic crew ~105
- accomodation for 50 special forces
- planning and staff rooms as well as stow space for embarked forces
- air crew ~20 in addition to that

And some basics:
- CODLAG propulsion
- two diesel-electric generators engines (4.7 MW ea), one gas turbine (20 MW)
- four diesel generators for ship electrics (2.9 MW ea)
- four 33' RIBs, 35+ kn, equipped for various purposes; mounts for 40mm GMG and M2
- 2 TEU space on deck for additional equipment
- aviation: 2 MH90

Sensors:
- MFR with enhanced close range resolution (phased array, spread over both masts for redundancy)
- 360-degree IR camera system (14 cameras)
- electro-optical targeting systems (presumably a pair of MSP500)

Yes, no sonar. At least i've never heard any mentioned. Helos will presumably have a dipping sonar. Link 11/22 and Link 16 fully integrated.

Weapons:
- 127mm Vulcano main gun
- 5 Hitrole-NT .50cal RWS; some mounted flexible to fire right down the freeboard
- two remote-controlled searchlights and loudspeakers (non-lethal effectors)
- 8 SSM (Harpoon initially, Standard Land/Sea Target Missile later on)
- large unit standard defense suite: 2 MLG27, 2 M2HB on bridge, 2 RAM Block 2, 4 MASS, ECM
- modular ASW package for mounting on NH90 helos.

No AAW, no torpedoes.

Thanks. I can read enough German to make some sort of sense of it.

More or less the same as the last information I saw. I'm still surprised by how lightly armed it is, for a ship that size carrying only 50 troops & RIBs. I'd expect either more weapons*, or more passenger space & a couple of boats a bit heftier than RIBs.

*e.g. a bit more AA self defence than RAM.

swerve said:

*e.g. a bit more AA self defence than RAM.

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There are a lot of not-so-small ships that have fewer than 40 surface to air missiles (with an 7.5 to 9 km / 4.7 - 5 mi range) for self defense, e.g. UK Type 23 (32 VL Sea Wolf, range 10 km)

Well, it's more or less designed as command ship for a about a squadron of smaller units really. As its primary function anyway.

A lot is apparently going into automation and the long self-reliance - palletized supply system, the environmental measures (waste processing) etc.

The troops - you could always stick another 50-80 in the hangar. Especially if you have a AOR around to base the helos on.

edit: actually, if that's really desired, it also shouldn't be that hard to build lightweight containerized accomodations that would fit in the hangar, e.g. taking up about one of the two spots in there. Three TEU for 25 px ea and a fourth for the public stuff, double-stacked with upper level access inbetween - should fit that easily. Whole hangar two such sets, for 150 px, with a third row with containerized supplies. Just needs some good added ventilation and air supply too

The AAW - well, the basic thought is that if AAW is a concern, a AAW frigate would be added to the "squadron". The F125 - as part of the Stabilization Forces - is meant for low-intensity conflicts, or in concert with other units also medium-intensity.

The land-attack capability should be seen as part of a "bail-out strategy" really. The Somalia deployment in '91 was a rather big part of that i think, the strategy would be that the F125 would pretty much delay hostile forces ashore (acting as part of an overall complex), while own troops there would be evacuated, or would withdraw and regroup on land.
Other than the land-attack capability, it pretty much is limited to self-defense and surveillance, albeit with a large focus on asymmetric attacks.

That's btw also while i think it's likely the K130 corvettes will be moved to Stabilization Forces with introduction of the planned more combat capable K131 class. The K130 has a similar profile, with standoff land-attack capability and otherwise pretty much self-defense only.

Tatra:
By the time the F125 rolls around, RAM Block 2 will be introduced (officially planned one year before first F125 commissioning). Block 2 will push range a bit further, with twice the propellant and a slightly heavier missile likely to 13-15 km max.

kato said:

Tatra:
By the time the F125 rolls around, RAM Block 2 will be introduced (officially planned one year before first F125 commissioning). Block 2 will push range a bit further, with twice the propellant and a slightly heavier missile likely to 13-15 km max.

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Yep, thanks, even read about 11 mi. but didn't want to move beyond well established numbers. Point was to put things into perspective: It would be nice if there where a longer range missile like on the F122/3/4 (NSSM or ESSM) and, yes, RAM is a short range system but, no, it doesn't leave F125 poorly protected (as applies to the German corvettes and missile boats too).

NSSM/ESSM, in the German Navy, is classified as "eingeschränkter Geleitschutz", i.e. "limited AAW escort duty".

The BwPlan explicitly mentions the possibility of a IRIS-T SL naval version for the K131 corvettes (if only to have a exportable SHORAD missile) - credited with a range "in excess of 30 km".
Might be a possibility for a refit, if a capability gap is discovered regarding AAW, especially as the shipboard space requirements are rather small.

kato said:

NSSM/ESSM, in the German Navy, is classified as "eingeschränkter Geleitschutz", i.e. "limited AAW escort duty".

The BwPlan explicitly mentions the possibility of a IRIS-T SL naval version for the K131 corvettes (if only to have a exportable SHORAD missile) - credited with a range "in excess of 30 km".
Might be a possibility for a refit, if a capability gap is discovered regarding AAW, especially as the shipboard space requirements are rather small.

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Land version IRIS-T SL is quoted at 25-30km. Greater range for naval version due to what?

Same booster as land version. I've seen the land version quoted variably as "about 30 km", "in excess of 30 km", "up to 30 km", "25-30 km" and so on.

kato said:

Same booster as land version. I've seen the land version quoted variably as "about 30 km", "in excess of 30 km", "up to 30 km", "25-30 km" and so on.

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There is no booster, other than the missile motor.

Thats good for Germany since their navy is not that strong. Maybe this could beef them up. Does this mean NATO gets there hands on it???

carman1877 said:

Thats good for Germany since their navy is not that strong. Maybe this could beef them up. Does this mean NATO gets there hands on it???

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Errr - I don't see the sense of any of that. Germany has a few different naval SAMs (SM-2, ESSM, RAM) already. And your question doesn't make any sense at all. NATO is an alliance, not an armed force, or country. It has member countries, of which Germany is one. This SAM uses the IRIS-T AAM, which is produced by a consortium including 4 NATO members (Germany has by far the largest share), & has (so far) been bought by three other NATO members. That means seven NATO members already have, or soon will have, their hands on the missile.

carman1877 said:

Thats good for Germany since their navy is not that strong.

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Depends on role really. The Navy is being planned around two future roles - expeditionary warfare, for which the Stabilization Forces will provide the primary assets, and a regional conventional naval conflict.

For such a regional conflict, the Navy would employ just by itself:

• 7 ships with distinct AAW capability (4 for escort, 3 area control); at least 6 more, perhaps up to 10 presumably with a medium-range self-defence AAW capability.
• a 3-dimensional ASW capability with 8 MPA, 30 ASW helicopters, 6 submarines and probably by then 13 ships with onboard ASW sensors and effectors.
• a conclusive ASuW capability with probably 22 ships sporting 116 long-range, sea-skimming dedicated AShM and 296 medium-range missiles with a secondary anti-surface functionality; 6 submarines with 60-70 loaded long-range heavyweight torpedoes
• 24 dedicated naval strike aircraft loading typically 96 medium-range dedicated AShM or 48 long-range heavy cruise missiles with a secondary anti-ship role (Taurus) or 96 laser-guided bombs, 30 helicopters with at least 60 medium-range AShM, and - if procured - up to 32 airlaunched dedicated long-range dedicated AShM, or alternatively 128 light-weight torpedoes onboard 8 maritime patrol aircraft.
• a dedicated mine warfare capability, with 19 dedicated MCM ships and 18 drone minesweepers, and the capability to lay over 1500 mines in a single fleet sortie.
• a fleetwide high degree of self-defense capabilities, with up to 25 frontline ships equipped with an all-aspect, multi-layered defense out to 13-14 km distance, and the other 25 second-line combat ships equipped for close-range defense.
• an organic logistics, tendering, repair and open ocean support and resupply system to actively deploy these forces at least 21 days at sea continuously, rather more for frigates and submarines.

Overall, one of the best-equipped navies in Europe still, especially for a conventional typical ASuW/ASW/AAW all-aspect naval conflict with considerable chances against any non-NATO navy short of Russia, India, China or Japan.

And that's not even considering the naval TBMD the navy is aspiring for, or those old wishes for Taurus to be both navalized and mounted on the MPA.

There´s an interesting new article concerning Project F 125: http://www.soldat-und-technik.de/09-08/inh.pdf

Unfortunately it´s in German and i ´ve not the time to translate it.

They compared the costs of several international frigate projects (FREMM, LCS, Absalon, Zumwaldt) and came to the conclusion, that f 125 is not that expensive as it seemed a few years ago. Most projects got more expensive since then.

There are also interesting features of the f 125 mentioned i didn´t know about. E.g. the diver detection sonar and the dozen of submarine drones...

The diver detection sonar is nothing new. The drones can be found under "AUV" in the BwPlan, and development has been postponed for... well, until next decade minimum.

About the only interesting thing is that the next 400-ton jump in displacement has taken place, and it's now at 7,200 tons.

The way this is going, by the time the first is complete, we're at ... 12,000 tons roundabout, i'd say.