German Navy

[kato]

Interesting. If the Bundeswehr needs 8000 to 13500 lane metres, it could met that with 3-5 ships (as you say) similar to the Point class (2600 lane metres) - which were, after all, German-designed & mostly German-built - if the ownership, or RN-style PFI option, is taken.

The study is "official" - that is done for the Bundeswehr to examine post-ARK options. Acquiring up to 5 RoRos similar to the Point-class is one of the alternatives given, after all. Simply building another 5 Point-class ships would be the cheapest option in that case, likely, since the complete semi-militarized design already exists as is.

That is a lot of lane meters of vehicle space, I wonder how many containers fit the requirement for supplies?

NRF force supplies (German part of a NRF rotation) are stated at 1,200 TEU. The current RoRo ships used in ARK can fit between 600 and 1,000 TEU per ship instead of vehicles, although the study suggests separately chartering a medium-sized container ship (that could fit it all).

As noted, Canada is interested in a JSS, Joint Support Ships. I believe Portugal and Sweden are also interested.

There's a detailed look into three ship types considered by Canada, Portugal and South Africa in the (German) documentation for the conference.
Mostly to emphasize how multi-role support ships are gaining interest lately.

The Portuguese LPD presented (TKMS MRD) is more of a "classic" LPD - 650 troops, 4 LCUs, 2 helo spots, 580 lane meters; additional capability Joint Operations Center (for amphibious operations) and medical support.
The South-African LHD presented (TKMS MHD150) has a strong carrier function (Malgowski's words, not mine), with a potential force protection role through simultaneous operation of 6 helos (14 helos total). In addition it has all the same functionality of the MRD offered to Portugal.

The Canadian JSS (as offered, with TKMS involved in the design) is primarily a replenishment ship with integrated sealift and troop transport ("light amphibious") capability. For strategic sealift, it offers 1,400 lane meters, however the support capability for troops is limited to only 170 men. Helo and medical capability are identical to the Portuguese LPD.

The downside of the Meko Multirole Auxiliary is that it's replenishment capability is comparably small. 6,400 tons fuel aren't much - the German Navy considers the 9,000 tons of an EGV as "basic", and on long-term ocean missions such as OEF (supporting an entire flotilla) it has been proven as needing to shuttle back to port to refill "a bit too often".

South Africa could be interested in "mixing" their intended LHD buy with replacing their replenishment capabilities, yeah. Their AOR is getting kinda old.

 

[kato]

The modularization alluded to by Nolting - and the TKMS personnel - actually gives me some ideas for a potential future German "LCS".

Combine the K131 with the - demanded by some - future large MCM vessel.

At least hull-wise, with the C3 system for Troika Plus installable (as MSD control vessels), as well as give it a potential to dispatch UUVs (e.g. UUVs in MCM role, RIBs in patrol role from same davits). In the patrol role, it'd need at least a flight deck, which could be used for semi-containerized modules in the MCM role.

Say a total of sixteen to eighteen 1000 ton multi-role vessels that could fill a patrol/surveillance/minesweeping role for the Stabilization Forces, replacing all P143A, M332, M332A, M333 and M352 vessels (currently 30 units).

Sounds like a lot, but these 16-18,000 tons tonnage are matched by the current fleet (17,000 tons currently). The German MCM fleet being faster and "ocean-deployable" has been called for occasionally as a future requirement.

In addition, for MCM we'd need a series of say another sixteen new USVs in the 100-150 ton class for Troika Plus. Potentially of similar capability as the proposed Seepferd (from MJ2010 concept) that could independantly deploy mine-hunting UUVs as well.
Also, add at least 2-4 flo-flo ships that could transport these drones over larger distances (4-6 each). These could additionally serve as squadron tenders for MCM forces, replacing the A404 in that role, and could be used in other transport roles within Basis See when needed. These transports wouldn't need to be large even, perhaps 30-40% bigger than current tenders.

 

[gvg]

....There is no telling how many other nations are. Possibly South Africa?

The Netherlands are also looking at a JSS as a replacement for their oldest oiler.

But how likely are these JSS's , LPD's or LHD's after the ETrUS debate, or is this the follow-up on that debate?

 

[kato]

As stated before, really depends on how they play it.

Just like with ETruS, Airforce and Army oppose GMSV at the moment.
The airforce because it sees itself as the primary lift provider, the Army because it doesn't like water.

SKB and ZSanDst, which were not separate during the ETruS discussion, are in favour of GMSV essentially, or at least don't oppose it. However, of course, both services don't really have anything to say in the grander scheme of things.

How likely they are... we'll see when the BwPlan 2009 is leaked. Sometime in the next 2-3 weeks, probably.

 

[perfectgeneral]

I think that with the german merchant fleet and GDP to consider, the german navy should have at least two aircraft carriers and a hundred ship fleet.

 

[swerve]

I think that with the german merchant fleet and GDP to consider, the german navy should have at least two aircraft carriers and a hundred ship fleet.

Germany had 4 decades of facing the largest armoured force in the world across a land border. What would you give priority to?

For the same period, German armed forces were not (still aren't) designed as a stand-alone force, but as part of an alliance, in which there was a degree of military specialisation. The German navy had no taskings for which an aircraft carrier would be anything except a liability. It was intended for operating in narrow seas, in co-operation with land-based air forces.

German access to open ocean is restricted. It requires sailing either through confined waters dominated by other nations (which, BTW, Germany has been allied to for well over 50 years), or a long voyage through wild seas with little traffic. German seaborne freight almost all goes the first way, much of it after first passing through inland waterways in another country. What value do aircraft carriers have in these circumstances?

I could go on, y'know. You need to look at the German armed forces in the light of geography & history.

 

[jako]

perfectgeneral when you say 100 ship fleet do you mean escorts or all ships including subs, patrols minesweepers auxilaries

 

[kato]

Hundred ship fleet?

Germany had more than that less than 5 years ago still.

Year 2000 ship numbers (124 total):
- 3 destroyers
- 12 frigates
- 14 submarines
- 40 fast attack craft
- 34 MCM vessels
- 21 AOs/AORs/tenders/AGIs

The 1990 numbers were about three times that, before all the NVA stuff was sold, and older BM stuff was decommissioned.

 

[perfectgeneral]

A major part of NATO at 1.5% of GDP?

Germany had 4 decades of facing the largest armoured force in the world across a land border. What would you give priority to?

For the same period, German armed forces were not (still aren't) designed as a stand-alone force, but as part of an alliance, in which there was a degree of military specialisation. The German navy had no taskings for which an aircraft carrier would be anything except a liability. It was intended for operating in narrow seas, in co-operation with land-based air forces.

German access to open ocean is restricted. It requires sailing either through confined waters dominated by other nations (which, BTW, Germany has been allied to for well over 50 years), or a long voyage through wild seas with little traffic. German seaborne freight almost all goes the first way, much of it after first passing through inland waterways in another country. What value do aircraft carriers have in these circumstances?

I could go on, y'know. You need to look at the German armed forces in the light of geography & history.

As part of an alliance Germany should be pitching in (more than 1.5% of GDP) . Her oceanic fleet has to get past UK and France, but as you point out, they have been allies for some time now. The fast attack boats are being phased out in favour of ocean going Braunschweig class corvettes. When I talk of a hundred ships I mean these corvettes, MCM, submarines (boats, I know), 2 or 3 aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates. NATO is shifting to a power projection stance. For Germany that could mean LPH, LPD and a blue water fleet.

The UK gave priority to keeping the North Atlantic Ocean sealane open. We did contribute to air and land power in continental europe during the cold war too.

Historically Britain had the majority of the worlds merchant fleet and our navy reflected this, but Germany has changed. So must her armed forces.

 

[kato]

And they are adjusting. As usual everywhere that means downsizing though.

The future German fleet will have 11 large frigates, 11 light frigates, 6-8 submarines, about 20 MCM vessels with a secondary patrol role, 2 LHDs (or whatever the JSS will be), and about 15 large armed auxiliaries including sealift ships.

NATO is increasingly becoming irrelevant in the defense considerations of its members. Capabilities that were procured to contribute in NATO context are being reduced significantly everywhere.

Germany's contribution in Cold War context were MCM and FAC forces. Both are being reduced or removed.

In the future context, Germany's strategy is to be capable of:
- pursuing multiple parallel low- to medium-intensity missions
- supporting army/airforce operations in both National and Allied (EU) context
- protecting German sea trade routes abroad in a low-intensity context
- fighting a regional high-intensity war in conventional naval warfare
- contributing to NATO in current amounts

 

[kato]

IDAS was testfired from U33 while submerged last thursday, successfully intercepting a target drone.

 

[neil]

Has BW plan 2009 been leaked yet? (or announced?)

 

[kato]

Nope, waiting for it too.

The guy at geopowers who usually leaks it is on vacation till 10th though

 

[kato]

BwPlan 2009 is [out].

Some of the Navy-related stuff in it, unsorted:

- RAM Block 2 planned introduction 2013
- Common Sea/Land Target Missile, starting 2014
- new anti-ship missiles for Helos, starting 2014
- new mine warfare AUV : dropped for now
- IDAS : development 2012, introduction 2016
- K131 corvettes: 2016+, no details yet
- K131 to "strengthen intervention forces" (read: first-line capability - ASW, light AAW?)
- MH90 (NH90 NFH) : 30 helos in plans, introduction 2015+
- Tornado : will continue in naval strike mission 2020+, upgraded
- EGV (Berlin class): third 2008+ building?
- advanced helo support for first two EGV cancelled
- change in fleet numbers until 2013: two new U212A, removal of all U206A
- commissioning of remaining 4 K130 until end of 2008 supposedly (!)
- Bundeswehr looking for a VTOL MALE UAV, navy purpose?
- Atlantique ELINT to be withdrawn as fast as possible
- Eurohawk demonstrator to be used for ELINT 2010+, production version 2013+
- DIRCM for P-3C far off in the future
- ARK "satisfies GGSV demand" until 2011

 

[Grand Danois]

What's new on the block 2 version of the RAM?

 

[kato]

New booster (higher range), new canards (higher maneuverability), no rifled launch tube (no ... rolling?).

Was originally planned for introduction 2011+ by USN and German Navy.

 

[Grand Danois]

Hmm. The whole concept is that it rolls in order to keep the cost down. Perhaps it is smarter to incur the roll aerodynamically rather than by rifling?

 

[kato]

No idea. Afaik the rifling is supposed to be removed in order to accomodate the larger rocket motor (146mm diameter instead of 127mm), while not compromising on the number of cells per launcher.

 

[gvg]

So nothing has come of this?

.....Im Mai dieses Jahres habe ich daher zwei neue Projekte in den Bundeswehrplan 2009 aufnehmen lassen. Es handelt sich einerseits um Unterstützungsschiffe, die derzeit die Arbeitsbezeichnung »Joint Support Ship« (JSS) tragen. .....
Source

 

[kato]

Oh, it is in there, pretty much as a footnote to ARK. One sentence.

"Possibilities to close this recognized gap of the complementary Secured Military Sea Transport Capability shall be evaluated additionally."
Page 60, last sentence.

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And i missed one:

New ELINT ships. Oste class will be phased out starting in 2018.