German Navy

[Grand Danois]

They compared the costs of several international frigate projects (FREMM, LCS, Absalon, Zumwaldt) and came to the conclusion, that f 125 is not that expensive as it seemed a few years ago. Most projects got more expensive since then.

Estimating programme cost for the Danish air defence frigates at 1086 mn € is waaay too high. It's 644 mn € plus perhaps 100-150 mn € on top from transfer of equipment and extra man-hours.

And F125 should be compared to Absalon.

 

[Waylander]

I just remain sceptical.

Are some cabins for SEKM, some RIBs and a hangar worth getting a 7.200tons frigate which has really nothing special on it except a good standing time in the area of operations and a small crew.

What is all that space for?

 

[kato]

Well, they could always add another two hull sections in my opinion. And through that outfit it to carry 4-6 EH-101 (or 6-8 NH-90), with two helo spots - instead of 2 NH-90 and one spot. For a helo carrier, it wouldn't be outfitted all that badly.

 

[Waylander]

Hmmm, interesting idea.

I could very well imagine it to get something like that.

Giving the Marine some assets from which they can start limited helicopters operations which in the end is everything we need for possible limited evac ops.

And the increased number of helicopters (and U(C)AVs in the future) would also serve very well in a patrol peacekeeping missions.
Not to talk of the increased sub hunter capabilities the helicopters give to them.

But how likely is that?

 

[swerve]

F125's grown again, I see. 7200 tons now.

Sooo - the price includes VAT at 19%, which is not generally included in warship prices. 440 mn Euros without VAT. I wonder what the range would be at a slightly lower speed? 20 knots is more than the usual economical cruising speed that maximum ranges are given at.

I do wonder how all the space is used. Doesn't seem to be enough stuff & allocated spaces for a ship that size.

 

[harryriedl]

F125's grown again, I see. 7200 tons now.

Sooo - the price includes VAT at 19%, which is not generally included in warship prices. 440 mn Euros without VAT. I wonder what the range would be at a slightly lower speed? 20 knots is more than the usual economical cruising speed that maximum ranges are given at.

I do wonder how all the space is used. Doesn't seem to be enough stuff & allocated spaces for a ship that size.

its getting into T45/Horizon sized vessel with no AAW weapons other than RAM and limited ASW and similarly limited ASuW wheres all that space going into bunkerage extra space for EMF?

 

[kato]

Some points:

• Very high redundancy i'd presume. Engines could be massive, as they're intended to run up to 10,000 hours in two years with only lower-level (crew) maintenance.
• Good amount of space for spare parts too maybe. In particular the bigger stuff of course, so you don't have to fly that in.
• Crew comfort is supposed to be extremely high, in line with the high mission time.
• Some space hasn't been assigned functionality afaik, and is there as a placeholder. The forward deckhouse (B position) for example, was originally intended as space for naval GMLRS - now a placeholder, no functionality.
• They've now assigned "12 underwater drones" to the ship. The only applicable underwater drone there is the [Sea Otter] - a beast the size and weight of a heavy torpedo. Consider the equivalent of a torpedo magazine, readying room... and of course cranes to deploy them.
• Actually, the drones shouldn't be underestimated. F125 might be getting a MCM capability equivalent to a squadron of minehunters here.

 

[Onkel]

One one hand the ships ability to loiter in it´s Operation area is rather impressive. on the other hand i´m not shure about the usability of that ship- it has no remarkable AAW and can´t fight subs. The ability to act against land targets is rather limited- I don´t believe in the MK 4 until the ship has it... is it usefull for other NATO- Operations than Peacekeeping? (Yes, it´s for stabilisation forces, but it´s a very big ship and we don´t have that much frigates when F 122 is fading out)

I can´t remember a Mission where a land forces Staff acted from a ship. Do we need this in times, where missions can be controlled from Potsdam via satelite link?

All right, if there are some hostages to be rescued, some special forces can do that from f 125, but that could have been done from every support ship...

 

[kato]

I can´t remember a Mission where a land forces Staff acted from a ship.

New Basis See capability. Basically an outgrowth of the navy support mission with the DR Congo deployment.

 

[Onkel]

Thanks, nontheless do we need this?

 

[kato]

Would be nice to have and all that. And they're essentially introducing it fleet-wide, not just on the F125. There are currently experiments with a F123 to command small-unit land operations (EvacOps and the like).

 

[kato]

The German MoD plans to send a frigate to Somalia again by the end of the year, this time as part of a dedicated EU anti-piracy mission. MoD is envisioning a mission with three frigates plus supply vessels for that.

 

[Grand Danois]

Do you know if "dedicated UEU mission" means under Op Enduring Freedom auspices or is it a discrete operation?

 

[kato]

I'd say separate. Similar to how the British and French have operated small groups separate from OEF/CTF150 down there.

 

[kato]

European Security & Defence issue 03/08 is out, this time with a naval focus.

Among other things:
- several pages of details of TKMS MESHD proposal for JSS ("Naval Shipbuilding")
- some general stuff on the path TKMS is taking with corvettes ("Naval Shipbuilding")
- a detailed article on IDAS ("New Defence and Attack Weapon for Submarines", from MarineForum 09/08)
- an article on the German Navy by General Inspector of the Navy Nolting ("Navigating in Rough Seas"); some interesting stuff on "Basis See" in there

Oh, and the airforce and ground forces stuff is interesting too. In particular the one on future counter-NBC systems in the Bundeswehr, and the one about the transformation of the French Armed Forces.

 

[Falstaff]

I came across a brief report on www.europaeischesicherheit.de ("CAMCOPTER® S-100 auf deutscher Korvette K 130"), which describes the extensive trials of the Schiebel Camcopter S 100 onboard the K-130 class. It is written in a very positive tone (directly from the Diehl PR office?).
Now IIRC the Marine said none of the present VTOL UAV candidates for the K-130 met the requirements esp. regarding payload and range. Is there any insider knowledge about whether the Marine is willing to accept a S 100 class UAV now?

 

[swerve]

If there is nothing which meets the requirement, then they must choose between waiting until something is built which does meet it (will that happen? If so, when?), or buying something which works, but doesn't do everything they'd like. Personally, I tend to the view that something is better than nothing. The best is the enemy of the good.

 

[Falstaff]

If there is nothing which meets the requirement, then they must choose between waiting until something is built which does meet it (will that happen? If so, when?), or buying something which works, but doesn't do everything they'd like. Personally, I tend to the view that something is better than nothing. The best is the enemy of the good.

I share your point of view. However, the German procurement agency is not exactly known for such an approach. Or for buying OTS if there isn't an urgent requirement. (Hey, we're Germans . The masters of overengineering...)
Although I think that something like the K-130 equipped S 100 might be exactly the right thing for anti piracy patrol missions.
Anyway, I'll try and find the article that describes the contenders' shortcomings.

 

[kato]

Well, the S100's payload isn't exactly phenomenal - 50 kg maximum, 25 kg if you want to have some sensible range (about 200 km mission range then, which is roughly matched to that of a Lynx without drop tanks).
25 kg probably wouldn't fit some integrated sensor package they'd want on it. And the hangars on the K130 definitely fit something bigger than two S100 after all.

BwPlan 2009 provides funding for a MALE VTOL UAV (within SAATEG procurement, which also includes the Predator or Heron TP question for the airforce). The Camcopter S100 definitely doesn't fit the category though.

The trials on a K130 should mostly be seen within the BWB's (not the Bundeswehr's) tendency to test out whatever is on the market, and its penchant for supporting the German defence industry in export-related matters. While Camcopter is well-established in sales by now for land-based applications, the BWB was facilitating a sale for ship-based applications as well.
While gaining substantial data on a commercial product that might interest both the Bundeswehr for mission-related procurement and perhaps several German police forces, including the "Coastguard".

 

[swerve]

You could fit a PicoSAR radar (already flown on it) & an EO sensor (ditto) within a 25kg limit. It's available quickly, more or less off the shelf, & as for the argument that it isn't using the full capacity - well, is it using less of the capacity than no UAV? What's better, a ship with an empty hangar, or one with a couple of Camcopters? And if something bigger & better is available in a couple of years, no problem. You don't need to spend the entire budget on Camcopters: just get enough to provide a modest but useful capacity until the hypothetical new UAV is inducted into service. After that, you use them as back-up, & for minor tasks where it's not worth launching - or perhaps risking - something more expensive.

BTW, what MALE VTOL UAVs are under consideration?