German Navy

[kato]

And to follow up, a short summary of operations within ZVM 2025+ :

Future Layout of Operations

The German Navy, following the current transformation doctrine of the KdB, has to be able to field naval units for the following concurrent operations:
- one Large Intervention Operation (High-Intensity) with all-area focus
- one Medium Stabilization Operation (Medium/Low-Intensity) with land/sea focus
- one Small Stabilization Operation (Medium/Low-Intensity) with air/sea focus
- one Large Stabilization Operaion (Medium/Low-Intensity) with land/air focus
- abandonment of several of the above in case of national defense

Intervention Operation

An intervention operation will field a full joint "Basis See" (see posts a couple pages ago). The core of this naval capacity will be an amphibious operation fielding 800 troops (500 combat, 300 support onboard). The length of a intervention operation is given as 6 months, including transit. The amphibious deployment, i.e. supplying the landed troops, has to be possible for up to 30 days with organic supplies (note: after 30 days, GGSV kicks in, i.e. chartered RoRo and supply ships).
The deployed taskforce has to be capable of the full spectrum of conventional naval warfare : combatting regular surface units and submarines (in a 3D spectrum), combatting irregular forces at sea, forward MCM operations to clear paths of approach.
If the operation is only navy-based, the deployed taskforce has to support a **-Level HQ onboard, equivalent to a EU Maritime Component Commander Afloat. In case of a joint operation, the deployed taskforce has to support a *-Level HQ, such as a EU BG (F)HQ.

Stabilization Operations

Taskforces deployed in stabilization operations have a different focus: They are typically tasked with surveillance, blockade/embargo, presence, reconnaissance, supporting a primary land force component.
Unlike the Intervention Operation, the above four stabilization operations have to be maintained indefinitely, i.e. with constant rotation. The core of the Stabilization Operations is a limited Basis See taskforce capable of 3D-spectrum naval warfare, tasked with the above medium stabilization operation; additional forces have to be available to be detached to support the other three operations.

Territorial/Alliance Defense

In case of a state of defense, all forces available to the above operations are to be available for the new taskset. In Territorial Defence, the navy is tasked primarily with : defense against hostile amphibious operations, conventional warfare against hostile surface and submarine units, combatting irregular forces at sea, protecting sea lanes.
In order to handle these tasks, the navy will, within an allied approach (NATO/WEU), form a naval taskforce focusing on 3D ASW, particularly for choke points and other littoral anti-submarine warfare. The navy will additionally form three separate mine warfare groups - one for North Sea, one for the Baltic Sea, and one for NATO; around these a second naval taskforce will of course be formed.

Depending on specific situation, one or more of the stabilization operations may be maintained in parallel to a defense operation.

 

[Verstandwaffe]

Very interesting Kato. Thanks !

And what the JSS 400 would be ? A new design ? One of ThyssenKrupp's designs intended for candaian navy ? A vessel from other country like Holland or Spain ?

What do you think about ?

 

[kato]

To get some idea: A possible candidate for JSS 400 (capability-wise) would probably be something along the lines of the Dutch Enforcer 16000 (Johan de Witt). Perhaps a bit reduced regarding in particular command facilities and such, but definitely not to the level of a Bay class LSL. Alternatively something like a BPC160 (mini-Mistral), or the MRD150/MHD150/MHD200 line by TKMS.

However, a decision won't be taken before - tentatively - 2016/17. And until then the exact requirements needed still have to be hammered down - and whether they're onto the wrong idea with the ZVM completely. There will be e.g. some training with a French Mistral in order to get some idea in the near future.

The ZVM also has two larger "categories" - JSS 400+ and 800:

Capability-wise, a representative of JSS 400+, which would allow more raw transport capacity and take over additional functions, would be the TKMS Meko MESHD, or e.g. a Mistral. A JSS 800 candidate would be the Spanish Juan Carlos, or similar size.

All three possibilities (JSS 400, 400+, 800) are mentioned in the document; procuring JSS 400 would be the cheapest option, and is therefore looked at closer. JSS 400 would require three LPDs of the above capabilities, and push some functionality off to the total six MZES (400+ would require three LHDs with perhaps less MZES or less capability spectrum for MZES, and 800 would be only two large LHDs - and extremely unlikely).

With any of the three JSS options MZES would still be needed, as the primary function of those is more in their tender and forward MCM role - transport would be a secondary role, along with taskforce command.
The possibility that no JSS are procured, and perhaps additional MZES could be procured to still give similar capability is also mentioned. In such a case, we'd likely be looking at at least eight "mini-LPDs" (say 6000 tons) as MZES.

 

[kato]

Newest F125 dimensions - 149.5 x 18.8 x 5.0 meters (from: 145.6 x 18.4 x 5.0 meters)

No new displacement has been given. If the hull form box factor remains about the same at 0.5375 (was 7200 tons with old dimensions), that's pretty much the next 400-ton step.

Now planned with 190 accomodation (was 170: 100 crew + 20 air crew + 50 infantry), planned core crew has been enlarged to 110.

Expected delivery dates for the four ships:
1st - 3/2016 (original plan 2014)
2nd - 2/2017
3rd - 1/2018
4th - 12/2018 (original plan 2016)

Source: DMKN

 

[gunner5"]

With a displacement of 7,600-tonnes the Frigates 125 predicted the world's largest frigates.
We also say in Germany "Kommando-Kreuzer" for long range plans for foreign adventures. But it´s a long time to 2016....the shipdesign of F125 will change again, sure... and gets bigger and bigger.

New picture F125: Google-Ergebnis für http://media.thyssenkrupp.com/images/press/thyssenkrupp_p_865_m.jpg

Frigates! Were I to die this moment, want of frigates would be found engraved on my heart

 

[ger_mark]

A "Kreuzer" should be faster and sounds too much like War. I guess it will end up something like "HRS" (Humanitäres Rettungsschiff).

 

[kato]

First steel was cut on Baden-Württemberg two days ago. Baden-Württemberg is the lead ship of the F125 class.

Current model (blinds opened)
Current visualization (blinds closed)

 

[STURM]

The Bundesmarine certainly takes ship defence very seriously. Like the Sachsen and Brandenburg class, the Baden Wurtemberg also has a RAM launcher aft of the VLS.

 

[kev 99]

The Bundesmarine certainly takes ship defence very seriously. Like the Sachsen and Brandenburg class, the Baden Wurtemberg also has a RAM launcher aft of the VLS.

The F125 class doesn't feature a VLS, the RAM launchers are it's only SAM system.

 

[kato]

The F125 carries the default upper-tier self-defense suite for German frigates, the same as any other frigate in the fleet (2x RAM, 4x MASS, 2x MLG, HMGs), as a special case with the HMG and AGL nests replaced by remote-controlled HMG turrets.

Only other weapons are eight Harpoon for ASuW and the 127mm Vulcano with ASCA interface for land attack.

 

[1805]

Is the F125 really a frigate, it seems to have no ASW focus, no sub hunting sonar? It looks more like a rather expensive and less able ship in the Absalon space. Surely there must have been a cheaper way to get 2 helicopters and a 127mm gun to sea....or have I got this completely wrong.

 

[kato]

The German capability spectrum in current internal literature differentiates into two categories of ships:
- Corvettes : 2D spectrum warfare, with organic drones + non-organic helo support capability
- Frigates: 3D spectrum warfare, with organic helo

The F125 sits in the middle between both of those categories. In my opinion the F125 deserves its NATO F categorization far more than Absalon its NATO L categorization (amphibious ship - yeah right).

The F125 is clearly optimized for the MIO role, unlike any other ship. Any other role taken on is just a byproduct. To that end it carries its four RHIBs, fifty naval infantry soldiers, the two helicopters, its up to twelve underwater drones, its self-defense suite that's been improved for asymmetric warfare scenarios as well as its extensive onboard sensor suite.

A big factor for the F125 - in comparison in particular to platforms like Absalon - is the sensor suite. The radar will be a Cassidian (EADS) TRS-4D/NR, a non-rotating multi-function PAR optimized for its role in high-resolution air/sea surveillance against a high number of small, stealthy, fast targets. Diehl SIMONE will add at least a dozen IR cameras with 360° coverage, and obviously each gun will come with its own autonomous networkable EO/IR system.

The helos, with ASW package fitted, will have sonar btw (HELRAS probably). The drones, depending on individual role may carry a sonar too, although expect something more along the lines of side-scan and anti-diver there.

 

[swerve]

Is the F125 really a frigate, it seems to have no ASW focus, no sub hunting sonar? It looks more like a rather expensive and less able ship in the Absalon space. Surely there must have been a cheaper way to get 2 helicopters and a 127mm gun to sea....or have I got this completely wrong.

It lacks the cargo space of Absalon, but has heavier permanent armament, better sensors, & comfortable space for a permanent military detachment.

 

[kato]

It lacks the cargo space of Absalon

Not really. The cargo space just isn't as multi-functional - in MIO operations the Absalon carries two SRC90E LCP and two smaller RHIB in the flexdeck, i.e. a similar payload as the F125.

 

[1805]

It lacks the cargo space of Absalon, but has heavier permanent armament, better sensors, & comfortable space for a permanent military detachment.

I don't know how much of the Absalon armament is fitted and the F125 has not entred service; but on paper it looks heavier than the F125?

ESSM & 2 x 35mm CIWS v 2 x RAM
Harpoon = Harpoon
127mm = 127mm

I would have said ESSM was in a different league to RAM? The flexideck is going to be some much more useful....

 

[radar07]

the sensor suite is also not that unique. the holland class also features a fixed par (s-band air/surface and x-band surface radar) and 360° eo system fitted in the i-mast. and the holland class is an opv which cost's much less than the f-125.

i think we will see more similar arrangements on other new ships in the future. time goes on and the absalon will be 10 or more years old before the first f-125 will be in service.

 

[kato]

127mm = 127mm

The 127mm on the F125 has considerably longer range especially with Vulcano ammunition (40-65nm), and is also tied into Germany's artillery network in order to provide far better results in NGFS.

the holland class also features a fixed par (s-band air/surface and x-band surface radar)

You're aware that there can be certain ... differences in radar performance depending on various variables?

I-400 actually needs to use two radars because s-band sucks when it comes to high-resolution surveillance. Hence the Sea Watcher X-Band tacked on, which does high-resolution, but itself is effectively useless beyond scant radar horizon... TRS-4D is also a lot better at multi-target tracking btw. And it integrates IFF Mode 5, which I-400 shelves to yet another separate system.

 

[radar07]

You're aware that there can be certain ... differences in radar performance depending on various variables?

I-400 actually needs to use two radars because s-band sucks when it comes to high-resolution surveillance. Hence the Sea Watcher X-Band tacked on, which does high-resolution, but itself is effectively useless beyond scant radar horizon... TRS-4D is also a lot better at multi-target tracking btw. And it integrates IFF Mode 5, which I-400 shelves to yet another separate system.

for sure the systems are different but can you provide any information about the trs-4d? there are basic information about sea master/sea watcher on the thales webside but eads doesn't provide information about trs-4d. so i'm not sure why do you think that either trs-4d will have a higher resolution nor why trs-4d will have a lot better multi target tracking.
and using two radar bands instead of one is common practise because every radar band has advantages and disadvantages.

 

[1805]

The 127mm on the F125 has considerably longer range especially with Vulcano ammunition (40-65nm), and is also tied into Germany's artillery network in order to provide far better results in NGFS..

I thought the 127mm was procured for the Absalons to take advantage of extended range ammunition?

Actually much as I like the Absalons, I think the Danes missed a trick, building 2 + 3 frigates to protect. On a moderately increased displacement they could have built 3 ships with the combined and superior capability and at an even lower project cost.

But I have to take my hat off to the Danes these ships are just so what modern navies need, yes they carry boats but the versitility of the flexdeck is excellent.

I have wondered why the concept has not been adopted elsewhere; does this reflect issues with the original concept, or the natural conservatism of Navies particularly when the innovation has not come from the top tier.

You would probably get 2 for 1 Absalon v F125, this looks a much better proposition.

 

[Onkel]

You would probably get 2 for 1 Absalon v F125, this looks a much better proposition.

It´s not that simple. The concept of the F 125 is to have an outstanding endurance. Is is meant to stay up to two years in its operational area without needing a dockyard. For that purpose it´ll have two rotating crews. By the way the number of needed crewmembers is dramatically decreased compared to the other german frigates. It needs only 120 crewmen to be fully operational.

If the weaponry is sufficient? I´d preferred real ASW- or AAW- components...