Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Was it not possible to modify Japan's land Spy7 panels for ASEV, i.e. smaller or was it less expensive to just build a larger ship?
I think if you have it, then you might as well use its full capacity. They will be expensive ships though. I read somewhere that the radars by themselves are worth $3B a set. Will make a Hunter look cheap in comparison.

I suspect if they had a clean slate and didn't have spare radars, Japan might simply have evolved the Maya class with a spy6 radar and Aegis baseline 10 package, similar to a flight III AB. Could probably get more hulls for the same money and still have tier 1 standard BMD.

Bringing it back to an RAN theme, I can't see the ASEV being the right platform for our future AWD replacement. Stick with either a CEA or spy6 system.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
So following the US tradition … Albanese, Morrison, Turnbull, Abbot, Rudd, Gillard, Howard Keating, Hawke Fraser Whitlam … enough for a fleet of 11….. … realistically a roll call of people who did the bare minimum fur the ADF .
O/T One thing Canada got right was the naming of the Harry DeWolf class AOPS, all named after serving Canadian service members (including one from 1812). No pollies, hopefully the same will apply to the two CCG AOPS.
 

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
Went to Canberra Airport on Wednesday - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries already had a big electronic ad up in the baggage collection area (Virgin had this, Qantas had Himars). Just surprised how quickly it was rolled out. Didn't take a picture, maybe Sunday when my visitor departs.

Have a great day
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Given Mogami's touted advanced ASW capabilities, Hunter should pivot to an AWD/BMD role to preserve its relevance and justify cost. I know this would add further costs, but without a clear point of difference, the Hunter program will likely come under increasing pressure.
It's a good question, as we will be purchasing a GPF that actually has reasonable ASW capabilities.

I find it ironic that we will be increasing our ASW capability with the Mogamis, when the original concern was that our Navy was becomming too heavily weighted to ASW.

That said it is not in the same league as the Hunter. It would be analagous to a professional footballer in the WAFL (or VFL for you latte sipping east coasters) and one in the AFL. While it might have near equivalent sonar equipment, it doesn't have the silencing technology necessary to make best use of that gear, and get in close.

This means that it would be capable of surveiling areas that have lower risk and monitoring at a distance. But something like a Hunter or an SSN is going to be need to clear hostile waters and get within striking range of enemy subs.

China is getting ever more advanced in the submarine capability as well.

I have stated before that the undersea threat is much more insidious than the balistic missile threat, and this is only going to get worse over the coming years.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
It would need to be signed off by the Navy, the deputy PM and defence industry minister. That would be a variation, and cost more, and then someone would have to do some sort of integration work. No matter how minimal, even if its just to check where munitions can be loaded and firing arcs, money and time. The political cost is too high. If there is any modification, and the project is delayed or costs more, it will be on them. Also many would see that as a downgrade. Part of the low crewing is weapons that are low crewing. So any changes, no matter how simple will be heavily contested.

I actually think they will be delivered with them. SeaRam isn't the worst system, and it was what the ships were designed with in mind, and its a US munition and system. It would be useful to have some of them in the pool and become familiar with them. SeaRAM would be IMO a better fit for things like LPD/LHD/AOR..

I think its a pretty good outcome. There was a lot of focus on up arming OPVs.. Now we are getting Mogamis, that whole concept seems to be unpopular. The evolution of this project has been interesting, we showed no interest in the original frigates back in 2017-2018..

11 Mogami + 6 Hunter + 3 AWD.. Gets us 20 pretty good surface combatants.
There was a series of discussion earlier in this thread on comparing Phalanx against SeaRAM. For the most part RAM was seen as an upgrade, as it has a longer intercept range and independent missile tracking capability. It also has about as many shots available before reloading as the Phalanx (if not more).

Short of drone defence I would view RAM as better, and even for drones, there are better systems.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
There was a series of discussion earlier in this thread on comparing Phalanx against SeaRAM. For the most part RAM was seen as an upgrade, as it has a longer intercept range and independent missile tracking capability. It also has about as many shots available before reloading as the Phalanx (if not more).

Short of drone defence I would view RAM as better, and even for drones, there are better systems.
As an observation around a dozen countries either have or about to acquire SeaRAM
As an inner layer combination, Sea RAM in conjunction with a pair of medium calibre guns appears to be the new norm for all round inner defence.
It would appear a logical path forward for the RAN to swap out the 20 mm gun for this type of missile defence.
I would consider some urgency for the RAN to dispense with the 25 mm calibre on the bushmasters.
I would much prefer however to take the leap forward across the fleet and pass the bushmasters down to the cape class and every other ship consolidate with the 40mm.

I think the bushmaster sizes are a waste of real-estate on the major warships going forward.

Regards S
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
As an observation around a dozen countries either have or about to acquire SeaRAM
As an inner layer combination, Sea RAM in conjunction with a pair of medium calibre guns appears to be the new norm for all round inner defence.
It would appear a logical path forward for the RAN to swap out the 20 mm gun for this type of missile defence.
I would consider some urgency for the RAN to dispense with the 25 mm calibre on the bushmasters.
I would much prefer however to take the leap forward across the fleet and pass the bushmasters down to the cape class and every other ship consolidate with the 40mm.

I think the bushmaster sizes are a waste of real-estate on the major warships going forward.

Regards S
Interesting point. The Typhon Weapon Station (which I think we currently have paired to the 25mm M242 Bushmaster as standard across the fleet) can I understand accomodate the larger Mk44 30mm Bushmaster without significant modification (same one as I understand is on the Redback). 30mm is the same calibre as Phalanx, so similar hitting power and range.

Furthermore, looking at Northrop Grumman's page for the Bushmaster, it looks like there is an option to upgrade the Mk44 to 40mm. I'm not sure if the Typhon can handle that size though. Would be a noce way to put something larger on the Arafuras.

I think the Mogamis only come with two mini typhons above the bridge with 50 cals.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
Trying to find out the range of Sea Ram document described it as classified , interested in how it compares to the Millenial gun applications in usage would be different any thoughts here please
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Interesting point. The Mk30 Typhon Weapon Station (which I think we currently have paired to the 25mm M242 Bushmaster as standard across the fleet) can accomodate the larger Mk44 30mm Bushmaster without significant modification (same one as I understand is on the Redback). 30mm is the same calibre as Phalanx, so similar hitting power and range.

Furthermore, looking at Northrop Grumman's page for the Bushmaster, it looks like there is an option to upgrade the Mk44 to 40mm. I'm not sure if the Typhon can handle that size though.
If you are talking about the Mk 15 Phalanx, that is 20 mm using the M61 Vulcan (same gun on many modern US fighters) so a bit of a difference from a 30 mm gun. Also the Bushmaster family of guns have a max ROF of something like 200 rds/min IIRC, so their suitability against a range of aerial threats is somewhat limited to the low and slow type.

Trying to find out the range of Sea Ram document described it as classified , interested in how it compares to the Millenial gun applications in usage would be different any thoughts here please
RIM-116 is the Rolling Airframe Missile aka RAM, with SeaRAM being an 11-missile self-contained CIWS based off the SeaPhalanx CIWS. AFAIK the max range of a RAM is ~9 km vs. around 5 km max effective range for the 35 mm Millennium Gun CIWS. So a RAM-based system has a longer potential 'reach' OTOH it could easily have less available shots. As mentioned the SeaRAM launcher only has 11 missiles, whilst the 'normal' RAM launcher can hold 21 missiles.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
If you are talking about the Mk 15 Phalanx, that is 20 mm using the M61 Vulcan (same gun on many modern US fighters) so a bit of a difference from a 30 mm gun. Also the Bushmaster family of guns have a max ROF of something like 200 rds/min IIRC, so their suitability against a range of aerial threats is somewhat limited to the low and slow type.



RIM-116 is the Rolling Airframe Missile aka RAM, with SeaRAM being an 11-missile self-contained CIWS based off the SeaPhalanx CIWS. AFAIK the max range of a RAM is ~9 km vs. around 5 km max effective range for the 35 mm Millennium Gun CIWS. So a RAM-based system has a longer potential 'reach' OTOH it could easily have less available shots. As mentioned the SeaRAM launcher only has 11 missiles, whilst the 'normal' RAM launcher can hold 21 missiles.
My bad on the Phalanx calibre. Got confused.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
Worth noting that the description in that doc is of a more capable vessel than suggested by the requirements of the public version of the surface fleet analysis though. Self protection makes it clear it is capable of protecting escorted vessels , over the horizon strike on land targets is also spelled out. If the additional capabilities are delivered on time and without compromising undersea warfare that would be a big win for the RAN.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Worth noting that the description in that doc is of a more capable vessel than suggested by the requirements of the public version of the surface fleet analysis though. Self protection makes it clear it is capable of protecting escorted vessels , over the horizon strike on land targets is also spelled out. If the additional capabilities are delivered on time and without compromising undersea warfare that would be a big win for the RAN.
I would agree the upgraded Mogami is a more capable vessel than the original Independent Analysis into the Navy's Surface Combatant Fleet envisioned. That is a good outcome.

The over the horizon aspect to the strike capability aligns with the standard type 12 missile that Japan fields on the classic Mogami. It has a range in the 300km plus zone for both maritime and land targets, which is thoroughly over the horizon.

I personally think the jury is still out on the NSM option. Japan has previously stated a consideration of integrating the NSM into the base Mogami platform. I'm unsure if that was to entice Australia, or for a genuine strategy of building in future flexibility. Either way, if it becomes part of their base platform, then it should also be available to us.

If we don't fit NSM to the GPFs, it potentially makes our NSM factory somewhat of an orphan, with a very limited use. This could prove to be problematic for the broad integrated strategy.

In regards to escort duties, that was always part of its function, I've pasted the original scope for the GPF from the IANSCF below.

At least seven, and optimally 11, Tier 2 ships, optimised for undersea warfare, to
operate both independently and in conjunction with the Tier 1 ships to secure
maritime trade routes, northern approaches and escort military assets.
Given that Japan has not yet commissioned a Mogami with a working VLS, I'm not sure there is any guidance on what missiles it will be configured for (let me know if I have missed something on this). I think the first VLS has only just been installed on Niyodo, but no tests to demonstrate what it fires.

Japan uses the ESSM on all its other VLS capable ships (albeit via an Aegis combat system), so one would think they will continue that with the Mogamis. They also use the SM series, so it's not unreasonable to think it should also come with SM2 connectivity. There is a lot of American technology in the Mogami combat system, so one thinks this this should not be a difficult path. I assume they have been developing this integration for a while now.

The Australian government has been aluding to ESSM by stating a capacity for 128 missiles in multiple media releases. That can only be an ESSM package.

A Mogami, with an ESSM and SM2 fitout across a 32 cell VLS would provide very capable escort defence.

The other interesting point in the media release was some clarity on what the next stage of contract negotiations will involve. It was specific to the three offshore builds. That seems to shut the door on additional offshore hulls, however they may be included as contract options to be activated later (I think the Hobarts originally had a similar arrangement for the unfortunately not accepted fourth hull). It also gives guidance that contracting for the Henderson phase will be executed later and not part of an overall full program contract.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Al

Interesting, though not necessarily definitive, no mention of mine warfare capabilities
There has been mention of this range of ships being equipped with the Hitachi oqq-ii anti mine sonar for detection and navigation as well as uuv,s operated from the ships to counter such mines detected
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
In regards to escort duties, that was always part of its function, I've pasted the original scope for the GPF from the IANSCF below.
Sure but the point I was alluding to there was the initial scope referred to limited self and point defence weapons whereas the doc posted by Reptilia (very reasonably) clarifies the frigate will provide air defence for escorted vessels. That (and the over the horizon land attack capability) would have been delivered in much smaller doses from some other vessels that were deemed to be acceptable in the analysis.
 
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