Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1625356448346832896

Looking to this time table, and considering India own project mgt track record, personally I do think Tejas Mk2 time table more doable, but have big doubt on AMCA Mk1 time table.

Considering this is practically two projects going to be done simultaneously, and looking HAL track record when completing Tejas Mk1, I do see Tejas Mk2 can be done in time table as it is practically evolution on Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A. However AMCA is more ambitious project and basically Indian ambitions for 5th Gen.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1625132384940351489

Looking on this model, and reflecting on how ROK and Turkiye catching up with KFX and TFX, I do see India still has some time to go. It is afterall they are practically also need to develop new materials for AMCA.

At least what I read to some more realistic media and forumers in Indian forums and Online Media, they are also put big doubt on AMCA time table. Tejas Mk2 and AMCA Mk1 will use similar engines (GE414) which also being use for KFX. However what many doubt is the abilities of HAL to done two projects simultaneously on schedule.

Still its interesting on how Indian going to fullfilling this ambitions.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1625428643731185667

India DRDO Twitter talking on their twin engine UAV TAPAS plus video from ANI News on TAPAS and local company Tango-Bravo MALE UAV. All efforts from India to increase domestication and their MIC involvement on UAV/UCAV market.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1657338019438018560

This tweet own by Indian Aerospace blog shown how the modernisation plan. The Tejas Mk1A will replace all Mig 21. Which basically what Tejas design for, something that's being delayed due to protracted development of Tejas.

MRFA program seems going to replace Mirage 2K and Mig29 UPG. While Tejas Mk2 seems sloted to replace Jaguar. Indian stealth project AMCA then seems going to be for additional growth, as Indian media and defense enthusiasts forums seems agree Su-30MKI will be hold by at least 2040+.

Whose going to win MRFA seems going to be tied to whose going to win Indian Navy new carrier fighters program. Both program Rafale already in contention, while US being represent with LM (F-16V derivatives for India call F-21) and Boeing (With F-18E/F). Media report so far indicating Navy tend to go with Rafale M, and this make potentially AF will also goes with Rafale and add their existing 32 Rafale already in Inventory.

Indian Navy Set To Acquire 26 Rafale-M Naval Fighters From France; Expert Says 'All Is Not Lost For The US'

The Indian Navy is expected to soon place an order for 26 Dassault Rafale-M fighter jets that will operate from the deck of India's new aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant.

eurasiantimes.com

India with Modi's administration "Made in India" initiatives wants if not all or at least majority MRFA and Carrier Fighter being build in India. Something that Dasault and Frenchie seems already agree on. Logistically Rafale should win, and it is rumours within Indian forums, that politically for fighters, India still more comfortable with Russian and Frenchie then US as partners. This even with US aero products already in India with E7, C17,C130J and AH-64E. So far US still not getting in on India Fighters market both for AF and Navy.

 

[Ananda]

Different approach seems betwen how India co-op with SAFRAN and GE, which shown how India keep strategy on hedging tech sources as wide as possible.

I quote my own comment on Indian approach for developing turbofan engine for their fighters.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1673372539853352961

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1673740022103830528

SAFRAN clearly not standing still after GE offer to India. The difference is SAFRAN offer join development for new class of engine. Thus provides Indian IP hold and not just underlicense agreement as GE giving. This in some way Frenchie offer more tech access toward India then US does.

After their involvement in developing Kaveri turbofan, this seems in what some Indian defense blogers call Kaveri Mk2 development program.

 

[koxinga]

There seems to be growing signs that the acquisition of Rafale M (26 units) will be signed off when Modi visits Paris along with 3 additional Scorpenes

Indian Navy to get 26 Rafale-M fighters and three attack submarines from France

PM Modi will sign acquisition of 26 Rafale-Marine fighters for INS Vikrant and 3 additional Kalveri class submarines to be built at Mumbai's Mazagon Dockyards.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[ngatimozart]

There seems to be growing signs that the acquisition of Rafale M (26 units) will be signed off when Modi visits Paris along with 3 additional Scorpenes

Indian Navy to get 26 Rafale-M fighters and three attack submarines from France

PM Modi will sign acquisition of 26 Rafale-Marine fighters for INS Vikrant and 3 additional Kalveri class submarines to be built at Mumbai's Mazagon Dockyards.

www.hindustantimes.com

It's India and defence procurement. We'll wait and see. Macron is in Vilnius at the moment and the NATO summit finishes tomorrow (Wednesday).

 

[koxinga]

It's India and defence procurement. We'll wait and see. Macron is in Vilnius at the moment and the NATO summit finishes tomorrow (Wednesday).

Usually, when the Defence Acquisition Council signs off on it, that would considered firm from a procurement process standpoint. Of course, things can still change.

India selects the Navy Rafale - Press kits

The Indian Government announced the selection of the Navy Rafale to equip the Indian Navy with a latest-generation fighter. © Dassault Aviation - C. Cosmao

www.dassault-aviation.com

(Saint-Cloud, France, July 14, 2023) – The Indian Government announced the selection of the Navy Rafale to equip the Indian Navy with a latest-generation fighter.


(Saint-Cloud, France, July 14, 2023) – The Indian Government announced the selection of the Navy Rafale to equip the Indian Navy with a latest-generation fighter.
Following an international competition launched by the Indian authorities, this decision comes after a successful trial campaign held in India, during which the Navy Rafale demonstrated that it fully met the Indian Navy’s operational requirements and was perfectly suited to the specificities of its aircraft carrier.
The Indian Navy’s 26 Rafale will eventually join the 36 Rafale already in service, which are giving full satisfaction to the Indian Air Force, making India the first country to make the same military choice as France by operating both versions of the aircraft to help consolidate its superiority in the air and on the seas and guarantee its sovereignty.
This selection confirms the excellence of the Rafale, the exceptional quality of the link between Dassault Aviation and the Indian Forces, and the importance of the strategic relationship between India and France.
“As we celebrate the 70th anniversary of our partnership with the Indian Forces, I would like to thank the Indian authorities for this new mark of confidence and pledge, on behalf of Dassault Aviation, that we will fully meet the Indian Navy’s expectations with the Rafale”, said Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.

 

[Ananda]

IAF to order around 100 more LCA Mark-1A fighter jets for over USD 8 billion

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to purchase around 100 more LCA Mark1A fighter jets to replace its MiG-21 jets. The proposal has been submitted to the Defence Ministry, and if approved, it would give a significant boost to the indigenous aerospace sector.

m.economictimes.com

Few days old, but India decide to add the order number around 100 more Tejas Mk1A.

Also they manage to integrate their Astra AAM to Tejas. Add their indigenous fighter capabilities. Something as usual increase Indian Defense Channels chats.

As outsider I can only say, 'finally'. After decades of development, after dilly dally of Indian AF with Tejas performance, finally they are shown commitment to use Tejas to the purpose that being put decades ago. Tejas is for Mig-21 replacement.

India is in much better condition compare to Pakistan. However Pakistan AF shown more determination on using JF-17 as replacement for all their Mirage III/V and J-7. Some can argue that Pakistan has no other choices. Still even tough JF-17 is more or less Chinese under license Fighter, Pakistan stick to them to increase their relative indigenous capabilities.

Well hope India after decades of developing Tejas, really sticking with the Fighter for better or worse. If India really serious want to develop their own MIC in Aero defense.

 

[Ananda]

Brazil's Embraer eyes mega transport aircraft deal with IAF, in talks with HAL, private players

IAF seeks 40-80 medium transport aircraft with 18-27 tonne capacity under Make in India route. CEO of Embraer Defense & Security says also looking at setting up assembly line in India.

theprint.in

Embrear offer tied up with HAL on underlicense partnership for C-390. This is aim for AN-32 replacement program, but seems can also aim for early version of IL-76.

C-390 is for capacity of C-130J that India already has. Also AN-32 replacement supposedly with the C-295. Thus I do sense this deal (if goes through) will reduce further opportunities for all three C-130J, AN-32 and IL-76 NG. Embrear need Indian market, considering they are being push out in the market by C-130J. Unlike other big C-130J market, India also not traditional C-130 users, thus familiarity factor not really weight in for India.

If Embrear willing to give good licensing agreement up to partnership status with HAL, C-390 in my opinion can provide well slot to "Make In India" initiatives for defense articles. So could be turn around deal for Embraer. Then again it is Indian Procurement, and it can also dragging on.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Brazil's Embraer eyes mega transport aircraft deal with IAF, in talks with HAL, private players

IAF seeks 40-80 medium transport aircraft with 18-27 tonne capacity under Make in India route. CEO of Embraer Defense & Security says also looking at setting up assembly line in India.

theprint.in

Embrear offer tied up with HAL on underlicense partnership for C-390. This is aim for AN-32 replacement program, but seems can also aim for early version of IL-76.

C-390 is for capacity of C-130J that India already has. Also AN-32 replacement supposedly with the C-295. Thus I do sense this deal (if goes through) will reduce further opportunities for all three C-130J, AN-32 and IL-76 NG. Embrear need Indian market, considering they are being push out in the market by C-130J. Unlike other big C-130J market, India also not traditional C-130 users, thus familiarity factor not really weight in for India.

If Embrear willing to give good licensing agreement up to partnership status with HAL, C-390 in my opinion can provide well slot to "Make In India" initiatives for defense articles. So could be turn around deal for Embraer. Then again it is Indian Procurement, and it can also dragging on.

The C295 is not only to replace the An-32 but also the Avro HS 748.
But still, a fleet of C-17, Il-76, C-390, C-130J-30, C295 and Do 228 is quite diverse. To make the fleet more cost effective and logistically efficient, they should sell the C-130J-30, specially because the Indian Airforce has only 12 of them. Enough countries who would like to buy some relatively young Super Herculeses.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733051327515607265

Personally, I have to be bit more careful to link news to Indian forums or online sources. Like this Mig 29K program. Before, the Indian online sources when Rafale M program being initiated contractually, many claims on Mig 29K days is over. Base on media talk that Indian Navy not happy with the performance.

Now suddenly HAL shown their avionics upgrade program for Mig 29K/KUB. As HAL ussualy become barometer on Indian Aero Projects, this indicates Indian Navy will mantain those Mig's for sometime. Seems this in line with another Indian Navy talk in media that Mig 29K will be maintain for Vikramaditya. While Vikram and the 3rd carriers will got Rafale M. However I suspect they're potentially going to mix Rafale M and Mig 29K in any carriers operation.

 

[koxinga]

For now, IN only bought 26 Rafale Ms, enough for the INS Vikrant. The future of IN naval aviation is the TEDBF. This upgrade (if it just interior avionics, minor) or full mid-life mod (structural, new radar/Uttam, new RWR) would buy time for the TEDBF to mature.

Of course, if it gets delayed, given HAL's track record, all bets are off on whether they will acquire more Rafale's, later part of this decade or early 2030s.

 

[swerve]

Brazil's Embraer eyes mega transport aircraft deal with IAF, in talks with HAL, private players

IAF seeks 40-80 medium transport aircraft with 18-27 tonne capacity under Make in India route. CEO of Embraer Defense & Security says also looking at setting up assembly line in India.

theprint.in

Embrear offer tied up with HAL on underlicense partnership for C-390. This is aim for AN-32 replacement program, but seems can also aim for early version of IL-76.

C-390 is for capacity of C-130J that India already has. Also AN-32 replacement supposedly with the C-295. Thus I do sense this deal (if goes through) will reduce further opportunities for all three C-130J, AN-32 and IL-76 NG. Embrear need Indian market, considering they are being push out in the market by C-130J. Unlike other big C-130J market, India also not traditional C-130 users, thus familiarity factor not really weight in for India.

If Embrear willing to give good licensing agreement up to partnership status with HAL, C-390 in my opinion can provide well slot to "Make In India" initiatives for defense articles. So could be turn around deal for Embraer. Then again it is Indian Procurement, and it can also dragging on.

C-390 is slightly bigger than C-130, able to take bigger individual items & greater total weight. Internally, it's only very slightly narrower than Il-76. Unless C-130 has niche advantages, e.g. able to use airfields C-390 can't, I don't see the point of operating both, & I think there's a good secondhand market for the C-130J, so ex IAF ones could be sold.

 

[Ananda]

Tejas MkII to Take Off with Revised Timelines and Increased Indigenous Content – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

The timeline being delay further from before talk induction going to be 2028 now become first flight of the prototype 2028. Still looking on Indian track record doing Tejas Mk 1 and Mk 1A, it is in my opinion 'expected'. Some on line commentators especialy from Chinese forums already smirking on another delay. Well Indian forums also doing it with Chinese projects.

Still Indian online enthusiasts should in my opinion take acknowledge that compare to Chinese Projects, theirs are having more 'proven' lengthy development time table. Nothing to be ashamed on, as considering dollar to dollar, their RnD results is quite goods eventough with strech time line.

Thus Tejas Mk 2 begin production run for early next decade is still in my opinion acceptable for Indian time table. Already good one considering they're still new player relatively toward Euro ones. However if they (Indian onlines enthusiasts) claim their AMCA will be ready by 2030, now that stretching too much.

 

[swerve]

For now, IN only bought 26 Rafale Ms, enough for the INS Vikrant. The future of IN naval aviation is the TEDBF. This upgrade (if it just interior avionics, minor) or full mid-life mod (structural, new radar/Uttam, new RWR) would buy time for the TEDBF to mature.

Of course, if it gets delayed, given HAL's track record, all bets are off on whether they will acquire more Rafale's, later part of this decade or early 2030s.

The Indians are quite capable of expressing interest in a large fleet of Rafales and taking over the Rafale production line, then changing their minds & announcing an open competition, just as Rafale production is ending, so the French have to either keep the line ready to restart (including signing up suppliers) for an indefinite period, or give up.

The Indians did that with Mirage 2000. They also complained that Boeing wouldn't keep the C-17 production line open while waiting for a request for some, then dithered while the white-tails were sold off, until eventually they asked for more than there were to buy. Doh!

When I'm particularly gloomy about British procurement fiascos (& we have far, far too many of them). I console myself with the thought that it could be worse. At least we're not as bad as the Indian MoD.

 

[koxinga]

There isn't much options as far as proven CTOL capable planes unless they want to go American and introduce another platform or go back for more MiG-29Ks.

But then again, it IS India. Indeed, their MoD's procurement fiascos would rival British procurement and the problem seems to be bureaucrats rather than the technology.

TEDBF: CCS Clearance likely to face delays, Rollout to be pushed – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Delayed Launch, Renewed Hope: Why Tejas MkII Soared Later Than Expected – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[swerve]

IIRC some of their procurement fiascos, e.g. the C-17 one, & a shortage of parts for assembling Hawks, seem to have been because paperwork sat in MoD inboxes not being attended to.

I remember there was a problem with Indian-assembled Hawks not being able to be finished because of missing parts, & Indian officials & politicians complained loudly about British suppliers. IIRC it turned out that parts supplied for assembly had been diverted to keeping operational Hawks flying so pilot training wasn't held up, because routine, supposedly regularly scheduled, deliveries of parts to the IAF hadn't been made. Why? BAE could prove that it had sent everything it'd been asked for, but some bureaucrats had to sign off a request for each delivery* & send it to BAE, & that hadn't been done. Too busy with chai biskoot, perhaps. AFAIK the IAF had done its paperwork, but it disappeared into the MoD & wasn't heard of again . . .

*I think this was intended to make sure excess parts weren't delivered or excess payments made.

 

[John Fedup]

IIRC some of their procurement fiascos, e.g. the C-17 one, & a shortage of parts for assembling Hawks, seem to have been because paperwork sat in MoD inboxes not being attended to.

I remember there was a problem with Indian-assembled Hawks not being able to be finished because of missing parts, & Indian officials & politicians complained loudly about British suppliers. IIRC it turned out that parts supplied for assembly had been diverted to keeping operational Hawks flying so pilot training wasn't held up, because routine, supposedly regularly scheduled, deliveries of parts to the IAF hadn't been made. Why? BAE could prove that it had sent everything it'd been asked for, but some bureaucrats had to sign off a request for each delivery & send it to BAE, & that hadn't been done. Too busy with chai biskoot, perhaps. AFAIK the IAF had done its paperwork, but it disappeared into the MoD & wasn't heard of again . . .

To paraphrase Danny DeDito’s line from the movie “War of the Roses”, what's all the MoD bureaucrats at the bottom of the ocean…..a good start.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Government of India has requested to buy thirty-one (31) MQ-9B Sky Guardian aircraft; one hundred sixty-one (161) Embedded Global Positioning & Inertial Navigation Systems (EGIs); thirty-five (35) L3 Rio Grande Communications Intelligence Sensor Suites; one hundred seventy (170) AGM-114R Hellfire missiles; sixteen (16) M36E9 Hellfire Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM); three hundred ten (310) GBU-39B/B Laser Small Diameter Bombs (LSDB); and eight (8) GBU-39B/B LSDB Guided Test Vehicles (GTVs) with live fuzes. And now the US State Department has approved this request.

The estimated total cost is $3,99 billion, and if the contract is signed and the UAVs are delivered, then India is (if i'm not wrong) the largest export MQ-9B customer in the world.

MQ-9B SkyGuardian for India

MQ-9B SkyGuardian for India On 1 February 2024, the US State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to the Government of India of 31 M...

www.scramble.nl

 

[Ananda]

India markets defense equipment in PH; offers soft loan

MANILA – The Indian government has brought to Manila a business delegation to showcase its homegrown military technologies and equipment and scope out possible defense industry tie-ups with the Philippines. At the Indian Embassy-led defense industry seminar in Makati City on Friday, at least 18…

www.pna.gov.ph

Put it in here, not in Philippines thread, as this is still a marketing approach from India on defense export. Also the marketing even tough on broad range of defense articles, but also more seems focus on Indian Aero Industry products.

However what I also want to point out is this:

The line of credit being offered by India is a soft loan provided on concessional interest rates to developing countries based on the national priorities of the borrowing countries.

The broad terms of the Export-Import Bank of India (EXIM Bank) line credits are 1.75 percent, with a 20-year tenor and five-year moratorium.

Seems as relatively new comers, India understood and prepare more, relative to other new comers, that global customers want credit line. If you don't want or can't provide attractive credit line, don't compete in global export defense market.