Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That new BMMP has quite an unconventional design, like its made to be more amphibious than a BMP-3 or BT-3F.
(It's very regrettable that the Indonesian Navy will not get anymore the BT-3F or more BMP-3F.)

Is that a 57 mm turret? And is it based on the AU-220M?
It literally is the AU-220M. Though I would take the choice of armament with a grain of salt. This is either a prototype or a mockup. It's far from obvious what it's eventual weaponry would have been.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I missed some. Here's another small pile of interesting tidbits.

December 2021 a fresh batch of TOS-1A was delivered. Quantity is still in production, and on a T-90 chassis.


An evacuated vehicle based on the DT-30 for the Arctic is nearing completion, named the REM-GT. Assuming the war doesn't sideline Arctic developments, Russia will have a force of light-armor, artillery, and air defense that can operate in terrain and under conditions that few others (if any) can.


An Arctic DT-BTR was recently spotted too.


An interesting photo of the Tornado-S on the proposed Kamaz heavy truck under OKR Platforma. Kamaz ultimately failed and the Tornado-S went into service on a MAZ chassis.


Production of guided missiles for the Tornado-S began in Nov. of 2021. Some of those are likely being used in this war.


A photo of the Bumerang with an updated body design. State trials are supposed to start right now.


Footage of the T-14 without it's turret cover. I think I've posted this before but just in case, here it is. You can clearly see the front armored plate of the turret.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I would expect that given recent events; they will make it a priority to come up with a APS which is effective and can be mass produced
Not with the reported massive shortage of advanced micro-electronics.
Their only shot at this is cheap optics to try and defeat slow munitions in high visibility conditions. Beyond that, no idea how they'll manage.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not with the reported massive shortage of advanced micro-electronics.
Their only shot at this is cheap optics to try and defeat slow munitions in high visibility conditions. Beyond that, no idea how they'll manage.
I don't think Russia can manage a technological response to the challenges being posed by the current conflict at this time. I think Russia will likely beef up production of existing vehicles as well as refurbishment of Soviet-era supplies (hello BMP-1AM). The current war probably pushes all the Serdyukov-era future vehicle programs further into the future, much to the detriment of Russian Armed Forces.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Even with this Russian sources, it is clear their own production in the most optimistic scenario will can only provide the chips needed later half toward end of decade.

However that's doesn't mean they can't get their chips from 'grey' market. I don't think US can keep all the lid toward all semiconductors supply line in Asia into Russia. That's one of reason why Bidden try to get back more semiconductor production back to US. So US can control more the most advance semiconductor production in country, rather then in Asia.

So it is back towards Russian financial resources. As for more production of their own MIC, the ones that talking on Russian MIC productivity stagnation are based on info coming from Ukranian sources.

Ukranian sources talking on Russian, is as much as Russian sources talking on Ukrainian. Much BS to each other.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ukranian sources talking on Russian, is as much as Russian sources talking on Ukrainian. Much BS to each other.
Ah but @Ananda amongst all that BS there will be some little nuggets of factually correct info. The hard bit is trying to discern them from the matrix of BS.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
amongst all that BS there will be some little nuggets of factually correct info. The hard bit is trying to discern them from the matrix of BS.
Very true, that's why in my post on Ukraine war thread, I always say any source from either one of them better be treated as grain of salt as large as sea of azov. There'll always be some line of truth amongst all their BS, and just like you say the hard trick is to verify ones.

For me, always look on something that already being circulate in both Western and Non Western sources. If those something basically already confirmed in all other sources, then it's very probable the truth.

So far seems the truth is somewhere in the middle.
 

IC_IC_IC

New Member

Even with this Russian sources, it is clear their own production in the most optimistic scenario will can only provide the chips needed later half toward end of decade.

However that's doesn't mean they can't get their chips from 'grey' market. I don't think US can keep all the lid toward all semiconductors supply line in Asia into Russia. That's one of reason why Bidden try to get back more semiconductor production back to US. So US can control more the most advance semiconductor production in country, rather then in Asia.

So it is back towards Russian financial resources. As for more production of their own MIC, the ones that talking on Russian MIC productivity stagnation are based on info coming from Ukranian sources.

Ukranian sources talking on Russian, is as much as Russian sources talking on Ukrainian. Much BS to each other.
Many people forget that sanctions on superior hardware have been in place for almost a decade and the Russians are managing to close the gap of the 1990s-14 to some degree. In this era hardly 0 was invested in chip construction.

A clear example is the GLONASS-K1 type satellite, which relied on Western imports, mainly vacuum-resistant circuits as the Soviet circuits were put in pressurised chambers. K1-type satellite launches stopped in 2014 after two launches in 2011 and 2014 respectively.
After a hiatus to develop these technologies, the last two satellites launched for GLONASS were K1 satellites in 2020 and 1 week ago.
The K1s are comparable to the current American satellites in orbit for the GPS system to get an idea, this includes not only the vacuum resistant circuits, but also specific advanced systems such as precision clocks.

So in general, I don't think these bans will affect the industry that much, especially the military industry, as there are countries like Malaysia that have already said they will continue selling to Russia, these are not the most advanced chips, but they are the most common, this kind of chips can be manufactured by Russia easily, but having the possibility to import them cheaper from Malaysia for example is always a good thing for them (we are talking about 100nm and up), I honestly don't think that any tank even if it is western will need more advanced circuits than that.
The shortage of chips in previous years was not because of the most advanced chips, but because of the intermediate chips used in cars, for example. Apart from this, it must be assumed that Russia has built up a stock of smaller chips that may be needed in aviation etc.
It is also to be assumed that if necessary China will build them what they need. So I think that despite much talk about this issue it is likely that the evolution will be the other way around simply because of need-investment.
As I said, from the fall of the wall until 2014 the Russian semiconductor industry was non-existent because they could buy from outside.
From 2014 to 2022 it developed due to necessity.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

Remdiesel, a Russian defense firm that started out as a repair contractor, but moved on to upgrading Soviet vehicles, has presented it's own armored vehicle (MRAP?) the Z-STS. A contract for 300 of these was signed right there, and the first were recently sighted as part of a Russian troop column. This appears to be an armored truck on the Ural chassis and may be a war-time replacement for lost troop transport vehicles.


An unmanned Ural truck was shown at Army-2022. I was aware of Kamaz working in that direction recently, but the Ural is news to me. It's unclear how far along the project is.


A small bucket of contracts was signed at Army-2022. Notable absent are any of the Kurganets, Bumerang, or Armata vehicles. What we have confirmed includes; T-90M, BTR-82A, Tigr armored cars, 300mm missiles Tornado-S (note not TELs just missiles), UAB-20 guided bombs likely for UAVs, Eleron-3, Orlan-10, Orlan-30 (what is this?) and Inohodets (Orion-S) UAVs, long ranged ALCMS, radar-homing missiles, Su-34s, Ka-52Ms, Mi-28NMs, Oniks, Iskander, and Buk-M3 missiles, S-500 SAMs, Perspektiva automated IADS control system, Sarmat ICMBs, Lotos satellites, 3 636.3 submarines, repair and upgrade of T-80BVs (presumably more T-80BVMs), and more raptor gunboats.


Other interesting things spotted at Army-2022 include the Sprut-SDM1 with up-armored sideskirts, and the new PRP-5 artillery recon post.


Recently a new Kornet variant was spotted with a seeker head of its own, produced under OKR Tulyak.


Serial production of the Magnolia and Floks gun-mortar systems has been announced. One is the Vena on the DT-30 chassis for Arctic units, the other is a 120mm gun-mortar combination system on the Ural-VV chassis.


Production of the 2S43 Mal'va has begun. This is a Msta-B gun on the a large BAZ truck chassis. Between the very large truck, the un-automated loading system, and the old gun, I think this is an unimpressive design of questionable utility.


Russia has taken delivery of a new batch of T-90Ms and BREM-1Ms, quantities unclear. Previous batches were typically 10-20 tanks.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
An unmanned Ural truck was shown at Army-2022. I was aware of Kamaz working in that direction recently, but the Ural is news to me. It's unclear how far along the project is.
Automotive manufacturers don't develop such systems on their own, so there's a fair chance they both bought the same system type from the same company, with adaptations to their platform.

Without access to western AI computers (combine analog and digital processes instead of all-digital computers civilians use) and western RF components, these systems will likely be simply remote controlled and not autonomous, and rather short ranged communications.

The merit is not entirely clear. Perhaps just to present a first milestone, not to have it enter service somewhere.

What can be done with commercially available computers and cameras is a simple 'follow-me' type of autonomy, with a manned truck leading the pack and a bunch of unmanned trucks following it.

Recently a new Kornet variant was spotted with a seeker head of its own, produced under OKR Tulyak.
This is potentially a big item. But when Russia's #1 reason not to ditch Kornet for something more advanced was economy, it's hard to imagine they'll dump existing CLUs.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Automotive manufacturers don't develop such systems on their own, so there's a fair chance they both bought the same system type from the same company, with adaptations to their platform.

Without access to western AI computers (combine analog and digital processes instead of all-digital computers civilians use) and western RF components, these systems will likely be simply remote controlled and not autonomous, and rather short ranged communications.

The merit is not entirely clear. Perhaps just to present a first milestone, not to have it enter service somewhere.

What can be done with commercially available computers and cameras is a simple 'follow-me' type of autonomy, with a manned truck leading the pack and a bunch of unmanned trucks following it.
That's exactly what Kamaz was working on, at least from the reports I saw. Follow-me unmanned kits that could be installed on regular trucks. I do suspect this is more in the proof of concept stage, rather then actual ready-to field vehicles.

This is potentially a big item. But when Russia's #1 reason not to ditch Kornet for something more advanced was economy, it's hard to imagine they'll dump existing CLUs.
Russia hasn't fully replaced Soviet-era beam-riding ATGMs. Any next-gen fire and forget Kornet variants are likely to be just small purchases for quite some time to come.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

UVZ has delivered another batch of upgraded 2S19M1.


The 42nd Motor-Rifles in Chechnya is forming a 4th M-R Rgt, the 78th MRR. From the photo it looks like they're recruiting Chechen locals and relaxing the grooming standards.


A column of new Z-STS armored trucks and AMN-590951 armored cars. This is likely war-time orders.


Russia is considering a new armored recon vehicle on the BMP-3, BMD-4M and Tayfun chassis under OKR Glyba.

 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
So after 2020, we can expect that the Russian Army has to use the T-90 and the 50 years old T-72......
:(
The ADF uses a 50 year old APC
You go with what you have. :(

Hopefully the gifted and upgraded buckets provide an appropriate level of service for the Ukrainian army within the limits of their design.

Cheers S
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Update.
The 42nd Motor-Rifles in Chechnya is forming a 4th M-R Rgt, the 78th MRR. From the photo it looks like they're recruiting Chechen locals and relaxing the grooming standards.
So they maybe relaxing grooming standards. Grooming standards are there for a three reasons:
  • Conformity - The military wants everyone to look the same, with the only difference being badges of rank, branch, trade, and medallic recognition.
  • Presentation - Because everyone is expected to be speck and span at all times, unless out in the field and even then they are expected to shave every day and keep their hair cut to the regulation length. and
  • Health - Because long and / or dirty hair is a health problem inviting unwelcome guests, who can cause infections if a head wound is suffered.
What else are they going to relax, discipline? You can't relax discipline especially for new recruits, because you need to focus their minds on what they are being taught and what they have to learn; the basics of military life. They have to unlearn a lifetime of habits and learn a complete new life and that takes time. After they have done that they then need to learn their military trade and that takes time even if they're going to be a basic grunt. They have to be disciplined in order to stay alive because a dead soldier is only of use to the enemy. If they don't learn the discipline right from the start and have it instilled in them, then they will be pretty useless later on and operate as a rabble rather than as a integrated force. The Ukrainians would far rather them to be a rabble.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

Yes he did. It's all over the news. Partial not full mobilisation.
What's his intention? He won't be able to achieve anything in the short term with this, especially before winter. I think Chris Cappy from Task and Purpose sums it up well here. He was a line grunt in Iraq and not an officer so sees things from the average grunt's POV. He brings up some interesting points in the video.


Given that Russia has problems replacing used smart munitions and lost weaponry, Bloomberg - Are you a robot? Putin is going to have greater problems the longer the war goes on.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So they maybe relaxing grooming standards. Grooming standards are there for a three reasons:
  • Conformity - The military wants everyone to look the same, with the only difference being badges of rank, branch, trade, and medallic recognition.
  • Presentation - Because everyone is expected to be speck and span at all times, unless out in the field and even then they are expected to shave every day and keep their hair cut to the regulation length. and
  • Health - Because long and / or dirty hair is a health problem inviting unwelcome guests, who can cause infections if a head wound is suffered.
What else are they going to relax, discipline? You can't relax discipline especially for new recruits, because you need to focus their minds on what they are being taught and what they have to learn; the basics of military life. They have to unlearn a lifetime of habits and learn a complete new life and that takes time. After they have done that they then need to learn their military trade and that takes time even if they're going to be a basic grunt. They have to be disciplined in order to stay alive because a dead soldier is only of use to the enemy. If they don't learn the discipline right from the start and have it instilled in them, then they will be pretty useless later on and operate as a rabble rather than as a integrated force. The Ukrainians would far rather them to be a rabble.
You're correct. This isn't a good sign. On the flip side is this better then more Chechen irregulars? I don't know. There are no good choices here in my opinion. Form new official MoD units but relax standards to improve staffing numbers, or continue the route of Chechen irregulars?

What's his intention? He won't be able to achieve anything in the short term with this, especially before winter. I think Chris Cappy from Task and Purpose sums it up well here. He was a line grunt in Iraq and not an officer so sees things from the average grunt's POV. He brings up some interesting points in the video.


Given that Russia has problems replacing used smart munitions and lost weaponry, Bloomberg - Are you a robot? Putin is going to have greater problems the longer the war goes on.
Yeah, it's pretty uncharted territory here. Let's see how they try to process these service members. I suspect the training for them will be poor. It appears they're equating mobilized service members with contract soldiers. So it appears they won't be sending conscripts into battle but instead will send mobilized personnel... I mean it was obvious they would use them in combat, so I guess it's good they'll at least be paid better then conscripts. But this is pretty crazy.

2. Осуществить призыв граждан Российской Федерации на военную службу по мобилизации в Вооруженные Силы Российской Федерации. Граждане Российской Федерации, призванные на военную службу по мобилизации, имеют статус военнослужащих, проходящих военную службу в Вооруженных Силах Российской Федерации по контракту.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
You're correct. This isn't a good sign. On the flip side is this better then more Chechen irregulars? I don't know. There are no good choices here in my opinion. Form new official MoD units but relax standards to improve staffing numbers, or continue the route of Chechen irregulars?
At least in the IDF it's not uncommon to let servicemen that are valued to look however they like, whether elite combat units, or technological units that you want to work like a high-tech company. During my service, I haven't worn my uniform since I finished basic training.
I assume the same is common among armed forces.

So in Russia's recruitment drive, it definitely makes sense to relax some rules. Maybe for the good mix, tell them to cut and shave, iron their uniforms, clean their boots, and line them up for a few ceremonies to raise their sense of "patriotism", then tell them they can do fuck all until the "operation" ends.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
At least in the IDF it's not uncommon to let servicemen that are valued to look however they like, whether elite combat units, or technological units that you want to work like a high-tech company. During my service, I haven't worn my uniform since I finished basic training.
I assume the same is common among armed forces.

So in Russia's recruitment drive, it definitely makes sense to relax some rules. Maybe for the good mix, tell them to cut and shave, iron their uniforms, clean their boots, and line them up for a few ceremonies to raise their sense of "patriotism", then tell them they can do fuck all until the "operation" ends.
Forcing Caucasian fighters to shave beards could be a deal breaker for their willingness to serve. A lot of the societies in that region are very traditional and often very insular. Military service is considered honorable and the proper activity for a man but shaving their beard could be an affront. That having been said, up until now Chechens serving with the MoD have had to shave their beards. Trops of Interior had more relaxed standards, but they're a weird bunch to begin with.
 
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