Canada Defence Force

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
An assessment of Canada’s Arctic situation. Other than the claim on the NWP issue, the sovereignty claim on the Arctic region is still best protected by ice (for up to 20 years) and nuclear subs which will never happen. After that, significant aviation assets or sell it.

 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I could easily see China treating the Arctic as something similar to Antarctica or the South China Sea. Poaching and ignoring Canadian shipping directions etc. Conducting military operations in the area.

If you are worried about Russian subs then a network of microphones, a 12 conventional subs and 24 x P8's would make life extremely difficult. Those P8's when armed with LRASM would make quite effective long range antishipping platforms.
 

Black Jack Shellac

Active Member
As a layman, without another submarine, how do you hunt a submarine through the ice? Honestly, I really don't have a clue.

Currently, the lowest extent of sea ice cover the arctic has ever seen (since satellite records) was about 3.8 million square km, and the peak is about 15 million square km. That is a lot of ice to hide under.

Source: Charctic Interactive Sea Ice Graph | Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis

My opinion, unless Canada invests in subs that can go under the ice, we are dependent on the USA to protect our sovereignty in the arctic. That is just the uncomfortable truth of the situation. As always, I am open to be corrected.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I could easily see China treating the Arctic as something similar to Antarctica or the South China Sea. Poaching and ignoring Canadian shipping directions etc. Conducting military operations in the area.

If you are worried about Russian subs then a network of microphones, a 12 conventional subs and 24 x P8's would make life extremely difficult. Those P8's when armed with LRASM would make quite effective long range antishipping platforms.
This is Canada we are talking about. 24 x P-8A? 12 SSK? Only if the government were on the electric puha (mary jane) and then some. @John Fedup will be ROTFPHSL when he reads your post.

To put it into perspective you have a better chance of the current NZ PM ringing up ScoMo tomorrow and ordering 4 Hunter Class frigates without any modifications. Oh yes she'll put a 20% down payment on them to and the cheque is being delivered to the Aussie High Commission in Wellington as they speak.

The trouble with Canadian defence is that it has political problems not to dissimilar to NZ where the government talks the talk but goes out of its way to avoid walking the walk. The second problem is that like Australia, Canada wants to indiginize as much as possible. Unlike Australia the Canadians are fundamentalists about it. Offsets and Canadianization are their religion which they enthusiastically worship. However this comes at great fiscal cost and one would have to wonder whether the revenue clawed back through direct and indirect taxation and government charges, levies etc., make it worthwhile.

Secondly their procurement system is both overly bureaucratic and inefficient creating increased costs both financially and temporally because the procurement process involves two government bureaucracies before it even gets to the political approval stages. The other FVEY nations have a single Defence Ministry / Department to undertake procurement projects before submitting them to the political process. Even in NZ where the MOD & NZDF are separate organisations, they still report to the same Minister. MOD are responsible for procurement projects valued over NZ$15 million, and during a procurement project, NZDF SME are seconded to the MOD procurement project team.

So it's very easy to suggest something like 24 x P-8A and 12 x SSK but given Canadian politics, history and procurement, it's unrealistic.

Finally one point WRT to SOSUS line in the Arctic. The ice is very noisy and thats why subs love hiding in it because the ambient noise masks their presence. It would be very difficult to detect a sub in that environment using a SOSUS setup. However where the water is clear of ice then it's another story. Mind you modern subs are very quiet and it may well be quite difficult for a SOSUS type of capability to locate and hold them, unlike during the Cold War.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
@ngatimozart …I would add one other point to your post. Unlike NZ, Canada shares a land border with a friendly superpower and to a large extent this explains the lax attitude towards defence by both citizens and pollies. Perhaps another dose of Trump in 2024 will make Canadians aware the friendly neighbour might not always be the case.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Sadly, another procurement goes off the rails. You would think somebody in defence could just cut and paste the US requirement into their request and forward the document to PWC.

The wording in the media report was interesting:
"The Canadian military has outlined what it needs in a new gun, but Rampart argues that some of those requirements aren’t necessary. Its complaint alleged the Canadian Forces solicitation required “certain design types which serve no legitimate operational requirement and favour certain bidders.”
The appropriate solution for Rampart would be to submit their bid and highlight why and how they believe the certain requirements aren't neccessary and serve no operational requirement. But of course it is just easier to go the legal challenge path.

So on the basis of this decision if DND put a requirement into an aircraft tender that "in the event of a single engine failure the aircraft must be able to return to base" then the manufacturers of single engine aircraft would be able to legally challenge the tender as the requirement favoured certain bidders?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The wording in the media report was interesting:
"The Canadian military has outlined what it needs in a new gun, but Rampart argues that some of those requirements aren’t necessary. Its complaint alleged the Canadian Forces solicitation required “certain design types which serve no legitimate operational requirement and favour certain bidders.”
The appropriate solution for Rampart would be to submit their bid and highlight why and how they believe the certain requirements aren't neccessary and serve no operational requirement. But of course it is just easier to go the legal challenge path.

So on the basis of this decision if DND put a requirement into an aircraft tender that "in the event of a single engine failure the aircraft must be able to return to base" then the manufacturers of single engine aircraft would be able to legally challenge the tender as the requirement favoured certain bidders?
Interesting enough, the Hornet decision back in the 1980s really boiled down to two versus one thus eliminating the F-16 and the other two contenders (F-14 and F-15) were deemed too expensive. Today, we have two single engine contenders and one dual. If recent reports are to be believed (see RCAF thread), the latter is no longer in the running.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Is this for real?


I think the CAF may have lost its collective mind! They’re becoming a tree hugging organisation, not a military.
Typical Liberal PC BS seeping into all walks of life regardless of the consequences. Humility and empathy will make up for inferior leadership and combat experience….according to junior and company.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is this for real?


I think the CAF may have lost its collective mind! They’re becoming a tree hugging organisation, not a military.
Beam me up Scotty. The natives are loco. There are ways of achieving diversity aims. That is not one of them. If you want to diversify an organisation you increase the minority group populations within that organisation. Then ensure that they have the equal opportunities to advance to the top. No glass ceilings. In NZ we have had three female Prime Ministers, three Māori Governor Generals with the current one being the first female Māori to have the role. We had the first openly transsexual MP in the world who shocked some of the traditionalists having them coughing into their Earl Grey tea. :D Now noone bats an eyelid.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Beam me up Scotty. The natives are loco. There are ways of achieving diversity aims. That is not one of them. If you want to diversify an organisation you increase the minority group populations within that organisation. Then ensure that they have the equal opportunities to advance to the top. No glass ceilings. In NZ we have had three female Prime Ministers, three Māori Governor Generals with the current one being the first female Māori to have the role. We had the first openly transsexual MP in the world who shocked some of the traditionalists having them coughing into their Earl Grey tea. :D Now noone bats an eyelid.
Increasing minority populations in the private sector and government are doable, a tougher goal for the military as a military career isn’t appealing to many groups. However junior and company will be more than willing to promote from small pools of minorities within the military regardless of overall merit for a particular candidate because it appeases their supporters.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Increasing minority populations in the private sector and government are doable, a tougher goal for the military as a military career isn’t appealing to many groups. However junior and company will be more than willing to promote from small pools of minorities within the military regardless of overall merit for a particular candidate because it appeases their supporters.
And therein lies the problem. NZDF has never had problems recruiting Māori because of us Māori being a warrior people. Pacific Island communities residential within NZ and having generations born here, also tend to join NZDF for similar reasons, especially Samoans and Tongans.

As an aside the American cops on the west coast have big problems dealing with the Tongan gangs. If a cop hits a Tongan gang banger with a riot baton, the baton either bounces off or breaks. All it does to the Tongan is rile him up. You don't want to do that.
 

IHFP

Member
Not too soon it would appear that NORAD will be conducting a mission starting tomorrow in Northern Canada. Also don't worry they have been innoculated, and will be wearing their masks, or something...whatever. NORAD to conduct arctic air defence operation > North American Aerospace Defense Command > Press Releases

Bonus information with respect to military procurement in Canada *cringe* I only cringe because our track record hasn't been the greatest. Remember the "Sicorski" debacle? *yowsers* Canada to unveil ‘robust package’ to modernize NORAD, Defence Minister Anita Anand says - The Globe and Mail
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
If there is a lesson to be learned for Canada and just about every other nation it is that threats can immerge faster than a country's ability to respond to them. Seems like every generation needs to learn this lesson.
 
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