LM/USN RE-DESIGNATE LRDR AS AN/SPY 7 (V) 1

DAVID DUNLOP

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That's the APAR blk 1 which is 20 years old, analogue technology and no longer in production. I'm 100% sure it won't be that radar. :)
Hi Rangitoto. You may be right, however, I'm sure over the past 20 years Thales would have up-graded and improved this APAR Block 1 to the point of a modern 4-sided Phased Array SSR (APAR Block 2)? I don't think the RCN would want 20 year old (25 years before we see it) technology and try to integrate it with the S Band SPY 7 (V) 1. Just wouldn't work. It would be great if LM were to invest in say, an X Band (SPY 7 (V) 4 ?), to compliment the SPY 7 (V) 1 S Band LRDR. If so, why would LM not just create a Dual Band (S+X) SPY 7 (V) 1. If that were the case, why do I still see some sort of X Band radar on every image of the CSC Frigate (either on the top or bottom of the SPY 7(V) 1). I am still leaning towards APAR Block 2 X Band radar. The more I think of it, the more confusing this mystery becomes. One thing is for sure. The CSC Frigate needs some sort of modern X Band SSR to compliment the SPY 7 (V) 1 and integrate seamlessly with the CMS 330 and possible BMD capability down the road. So if not APAR Block 2, then what? Cheers! :(
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Hi Rangitoto. You may be right, however, I'm sure over the past 20 years Thales would have up-graded and improved this APAR Block 1 to the point of a modern 4-sided Phased Array SSR (APAR Block 2)? I don't think the RCN would want 20 year old (25 years before we see it) technology and try to integrate it with the S Band SPY 7 (V) 1. Just wouldn't work. It would be great if LM were to invest in say, an X Band (SPY 7 (V) 4 ?), to compliment the SPY 7 (V) 1 S Band LRDR. If so, why would LM not just create a Dual Band (S+X) SPY 7 (V) 1. If that were the case, why do I still see some sort of X Band radar on every image of the CSC Frigate (either on the top or bottom of the SPY 7(V) 1). I am still leaning towards APAR Block 2 X Band radar. The more I think of it, the more confusing this mystery becomes. One thing is for sure. The CSC Frigate needs some sort of modern X Band SSR to compliment the SPY 7 (V) 1 and integrate seamlessly with the CMS 330 and possible BMD capability down the road. So if not APAR Block 2, then what? Cheers! :(
Hi David, I'm not sure I fully understood your points in this post, but I have to agree with @Rangitoto that APAR Block 1 is no longer in production. In other words, that radar shown on the CSC models can't be APAR block 1. Logic would dictate it is the Indra 25X that @Rangitoto linked in a previous post, given it and the AN/SPY7 will be fully integrated for the F110, and qualified for the same missile load-out as CSC (ESSM, and SM-x), but those panels are clearly rectangular, not square. Also puzzling is the models I have seen of F110 show separate illuminators (SPG-62), so it would appear that the Indra 25X is NOT optimized for the illuminator role, which would seem to rule it out as a candidate, notwithstanding it is also rectangular in shape. The only X-band radar I have come across that is both square in shape and designed for missile control is the Leonardo Kronos Starfire, but I have no idea if it would support ESSM and SM-x. Leonardo does have a large presence in Canada, however, so this is not totally outside the realm of the possible. Why Canada would choose this system over APAR Block 2 however, which has a large amount of Canadian content, and is purpose designed to support the same missions and missiles, is puzzling, to say the least.

With regards to MDA, they have extensive experience designing and building synthetic aperture radars for Radarsat 1 and 2, and the Radarsat Constellation, so it is possible they could build this radar. Also, MDA is a Tier 1 supplier to CSC, and as such is tasked (among other things) to "Build an advanced radar system critical to the integrated CSC weapons system, which is well positioned to be exported to the global naval market." (Source: February 8, 2019 - MDA Selected for Design Phase of Canadian Surface Combatant Program, go to second bullet). This suggests MDA is responsible for this radar. That could mean anything from designing and building to sourcing, however, so until the CSC final design details become public we will probably not know for sure the make and model of this radar. However, I think we can be fairly certain that whatever is chosen it will be top-of-the-line kit, given the selection of the AN/SPY-7.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Hi David, I'm not sure I fully understood your points in this post, but I have to agree with @Rangitoto that APAR Block 1 is no longer in production. In other words, that radar shown on the CSC models can't be APAR block 1. Logic would dictate it is the Indra 25X that @Rangitoto linked in a previous post, given it and the AN/SPY7 will be fully integrated for the F110, and qualified for the same missile load-out as CSC (ESSM, and SM-x), but those panels are clearly rectangular, not square. Also puzzling is the models I have seem of F110 show separate illuminators (SPG-62), so it would appear that the Indra 25X is NOT optimized for the illuminator role, which would seem to rule it out as a candidate, notwithstanding it is also rectangular in shape. The only X-band radar I have come across that is both square in shape and designed for missile control is the Leonardo Kronos Starfire, but I have no idea if it would support ESSM and SM-x. Leonardo does have a large presence in Canada, however, so this is not totally outside the realm of the possible. Why Canada would choose this system over APAR Block 2 however, which has a large amount of Canadian content, and is purpose designed to support the same missions and missiles, is puzzling, to say the least.

With regards to MDA, they have extensive experience designing and building synthetic aperture radars for Radarsat 1 and 2, and the Radarsat Constellation, so it is possible they could build this radar. Also, MDA is a Tier 1 supplier to CSC, and as such is tasked (among other things) to "Build an advanced radar system critical to the integrated CSC weapons system, which is well positioned to be exported to the global naval market." (Source: February 8, 2019 - MDA Selected for Design Phase of Canadian Surface Combatant Program, go to second bullet). This suggests MDA is responsible for this radar. That could mean anything from designing and building to sourcing, however, so until the CSC final design details become public we will probably not know for sure the make and model of this radar. However, I think we can be fairly certain that whatever is chosen it will be top-of-the-line kit, given the selection of the AN/SPY-7.
Hi Calculus. Some very insightful thoughts. I do think however that although MDA will be working in consort with LM to integrate the SPY 7(V) 1 radar for the CSC, I don't believe that they are going to develop another "new" radar on their own at this time. I believe the RCN has already chosen the "X" Band Multi-Function Radar they want and MDA is sourcing it out. I believe that the CSC X Band radar will still come from Thales Corp. If you take a look at their latest offering for the French Navy's new Frigates, you will see that the SEA FIRE 500 S and X Band radars are paramount as per below. Their S Band radar will be "ground-based" for the French Army. Leonardo Kronos has also been working with the Italian Navy to work on their versions of the same radar system, yes, one called the STARFIRE (C Band) and the other called the SEA FIRE (X Band). Both radars are made by Thales Group. The SEA FIRE 500 X Band seems to be just right for CSC. Cheers!

Thales Sea Fire 500-Full Digital AESA Multi-Function X Band Radar

upload_2019-12-1_16-31-25.gifupload_2019-12-1_16-31-25.gif

MULTIMISSION:
SF is a true Multi Mission Radar delivering superior performance for all missions simultaneously, through dynamic radar resources management with very short response time.
• Air surveillance and defence: from self defence to large area air defence
• Surface surveillance and defence
• Ballistic missile surveillance and defence
• ASTER Missile fire control
• Surface gun fire support
• C-RAM
• Fully digital and software controlled processing: all missions performed by dedicated software applications.

SCALABLE RADAR:
Thanks to its modular architecture, Sea Fire can be installed on light frigates or up to destroyers. The advanced surveillance and fire control capabilities of the compact Sea Fire will endow each ship with a performance and fire power of a ship a few thousand tons heavier. It transforms a multipurpose frigate into an AAW frigate or even a multipurpose destroyer.

OPERATIONAL AVAILIBILITY:
The modern architecture of the Sea Fire family is intrinsically designed for redundancy and graceful degradation ensuring continuity of the mission, even on extended patrols far away from its home base. Maintenance is performed during the mission at sea in the protected environment of the mast and with a very limited number of LRUs and standard tools.

KEY FEATURES:
• Air surveillance coverage: Up to 500 km +
• Surface surveillance coverage: 80 km +
• Coverage: 360° in azimuth, 90° in elevation
• Tracking capacity: > 800 air and surface targets
• Track update automatically adapted to target characteristics and free of any antenna constraints.
• Enhanced surveillance capability on all targets: slow moving & very low RCS, or supersonic highly maneuvering stealth targets
• Supports ASTER 15, ASTER 30 and ASTER 30 B1 NT in their whole performance envelope with fire control and autonomous surveillance coverage: No cueing required.
• Growth potential through software releases to add new missions to handle new threats and new features such as enhanced ECCM and NCTR.

@DAVID DUNLOP Can you please post a link for this info. It's one of the rules here. Also lots of bold is lots of shouting.
Ngatimozart.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Hi Ngatimozart. Sorry about the bolding & under-lining. Just a habit. I have corrected all. Google "Thales Sea Fire 500 Radar" and you will find all the info on this radar along with a couple of videos as well. Cheers!
 

ngatimozart

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Hi Ngatimozart. Sorry about the bolding & under-lining. Just a habit. I have corrected all. Google "Thales Sea Fire 500 Radar" and you will find all the info on this radar along with a couple of videos as well. Cheers!
@DAVID DUNLOP the linking sourcing requirement is to prevent claims of plagiarism being levelled against you and the forum. We take this very seriously and telling people just to Google it, especially a Moderator is very bad form, and can lead to the red ink being used and very cranky Moderators. So I very strongly suggest that you do as I originally asked, or this Moderator will get very cranky quickly. It is a requirement that you follow a Moderators directions.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

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@DAVID DUNLOP the linking sourcing requirement is to prevent claims of plagiarism being levelled against you and the forum. We take this very seriously and telling people just to Google it, especially a Moderator is very bad form, and can lead to the red ink being used and very cranky Moderators. So I very strongly suggest that you do as I originally asked, or this Moderator will get very cranky quickly. It is a requirement that you follow a Moderators directions.
Hi ngatmozart. I have sourced much of my research on several sites. Here is what I have:

https://www.thalesgroup.com › medias › content
upload_2019-12-3_20-42-29.gif
upload_2019-12-3_20-43-12.gif
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjlycnb2prmAhVPjlkKHQy6BnEQwqsBMAF6BAgKEAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlFVxj6sIf7w&usg=AOvVaw1xFQAyjhZyy6YfTzXjpJ49

Leonardo demos outstanding BMD capabilities ... - Naval News
Naval News - Global Naval Defense News Coverage › News

C4ISRNET, Media for the Intelligence-Age Military | C4ISRNET › industry › 2017/12/06 › leonardo-works-on-eu...
 
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Calculus

Well-Known Member
The SEA FIRE 500 X Band seems to be just right for CSC. Cheers!
Except the Sea Fire 500 does not currently support either ESSM or SM-x - only the Aster family of missiles. So, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this, and reiterate my belief that the X-band radar on CSC is still unknown.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/news/smart-phone-radars-sea-fire-making_seas_safe

SEA FIRE Next Gen Radar System Begins Testing at Shore Integration Facility - Naval News
 
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ASSAIL

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Verified Defense Pro
Can someone please help this geriatric understand the increasingly complex world of APAR.
What is the fundamental differences between CEAFAR2 (I understand the L band bit), Thales SEA FIRE, LM’s AN/SPY-7(V)1 and any othe modern digital radars of which I am unaware?
I used to think that SPS 52 was the bees’ knees so you understand my problem.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

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Except the Sea Fire 500 does not currently support either ESSM or SM-x - only the Aster family of missiles. So, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this, and reiterate my belief that the X-band radar on CSC is still unknown.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/news/smart-phone-radars-sea-fire-making_seas_safe

SEA FIRE Next Gen Radar System Begins Testing at Shore Integration Facility - Naval News
Hi Calculus! Good to hear from you again. The Sea Fire 500 multi-function AESA radar, is just that. A radar. Just about any radar can be incorporated to support just about any missile system. Which is where MDA & Lockheed Martin's CMS 330 come in. The CMS 330 already supports ESSM & SM-X. You may very well be correct about LM integrating this radar, but I can't see any other radar it might be. At this point, we are all just speculating on what X-Band radar the CSC will have, but my bet is on the Sea Fire. My opinion anyway. Cheers!
 

DAVID DUNLOP

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Can someone please help this geriatric understand the increasingly complex world of APAR.
What is the fundamental differences between CEAFAR2 (I understand the L band bit), Thales SEA FIRE, LM’s AN/SPY-7(V)1 and any othe modern digital radars of which I am unaware?
I used to think that SPS 52 was the bees’ knees so you understand my problem.
Hi ASSAIL. Just a quick history (for those who may not know) on USN radars. The SPS 52C was unique in its day. It had 1980'S circuit boards but still had waveguide and Klystron technology and was replaced in the late 1990's by the more digitized AN/SPS 48E/F with still a rotating antenna and waveguide for their CG/ A/C Carriers. The CEAFAR2/APAR/ SEA FIRE 500/AN/SPY-7 (V)/SPY 6 (V) 1-4 family of radars are a completely different "kettle of fish". These Multi-Function solid state radars (SSR's) Phased Array stationary radars use may Radar Module Assemblies (RMA's). Think of each assembly as being it's own T/R radar with no waveguides or Magnetrons/Klystrons. Each radar is "Scalable". For example the SPY 6 (V)1 has 37 RMA's that can be scaled down to fit any sized ship. Same with the SPY 7(V) 1 which can be scaled up or down and has 4-sided antennas with RMA's on each one. all these new radars are vastly improved over the older types and are the future of new radar technology throughout the world. I could go into more detail but there it is in a nut-shell. Cheers!
 

ASSAIL

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Hi ASSAIL. Just a quick history (for those who may not know) on USN radars. The SPS 52C was unique in its day. It had 1980'S circuit boards but still had waveguide and Klystron technology and was replaced in the late 1990's by the more digitized AN/SPS 48E/F with still a rotating antenna and waveguide for their CG/ A/C Carriers. The CEAFAR2/APAR/ SEA FIRE 500/AN/SPY-7 (V)/SPY 6 (V) 1-4 family of radars are a completely different "kettle of fish". These Multi-Function solid state radars (SSR's) Phased Array stationary radars use may Radar Module Assemblies (RMA's). Think of each assembly as being it's own T/R radar with no waveguides or Magnetrons/Klystrons. Each radar is "Scalable". For example the SPY 6 (V)1 has 37 RMA's that can be scaled down to fit any sized ship. Same with the SPY 7(V) 1 which can be scaled up or down and has 4-sided antennas with RMA's on each one. all these new radars are vastly improved over the older types and are the future of new radar technology throughout the world. I could go into more detail but there it is in a nut-shell. Cheers!
Thanks David, I wasn’t at all comparing SPS52 (which was fitted to the RANs CFAs first in 1965) with modern radars and I do understand the generalities of modern APARs.
What I was asking was the differences between the new radars entering service today.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

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Thanks David, I wasn’t at all comparing SPS52 (which was fitted to the RANs CFAs first in 1965) with modern radars and I do understand the generalities of modern APARs.
What I was asking was the differences between the new radars entering service today.
Understand ASSAIL. Most of these new radars are AESA Technology and a "game changer" in todays Naval radars. That is why the SPY (7) V1 is such a game-changer for Canada and the CSC Frigate. A great choice for our navy. I believe this radar may even out-perform the AMDR SPY (6) V 1 going on the AB's Flt 111"s. They all compare favorably with each other with Gallium Nitride technology.I believe it was Ratheon who actually invented this technology, but you can read more here: Cheers!
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAAegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmil-embedded.com%2Farticles%2Fmultifunction-battlefield-sensor-network%2F&usg=AOvVaw1vdUGBILndwN9yw3vNmlps

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAMegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.bliley.com%2Funderstanding-aesa-radar-tech&usg=AOvVaw1XEdOk6DmI_zYha2Wmn2Xz
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Understand ASSAIL. Most of these new radars are AESA Technology and a "game changer" in todays Naval radars. That is why the SPY (7) V1 is such a game-changer for Canada and the CSC Frigate. A great choice for our navy. I believe this radar may even out-perform the AMDR SPY (6) V 1 going on the AB's Flt 111"s. They all compare favorably with each other with Gallium Nitride technology.I believe it was Ratheon who actually invented this technology, but you can read more here: Cheers!
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAAegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmil-embedded.com%2Farticles%2Fmultifunction-battlefield-sensor-network%2F&usg=AOvVaw1vdUGBILndwN9yw3vNmlps

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju3KXv9LLmAhXkguAKHV_gAcQQFjAMegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.bliley.com%2Funderstanding-aesa-radar-tech&usg=AOvVaw1XEdOk6DmI_zYha2Wmn2Xz
One of your articles says Raytheon deveoped the Next Generation Jammer. The other says "In 2016, Raytheon made headlines in the defense tech world by debuting its gallium nitrate (GaN)-based AESA upgrade to the Patriot". Neither of those was "inventing the technology" of GaN transistors.

SAAB publicly demonstrated its (fully functional) GaN AESA radars in 2014, developed & ready to sell. By 2016 they were being delivered to customers. Other rivals to Raytheon also developed the technology independently.

The idea was out there for a long time, & was being worked on quite a few countries, before any radars were produced.
 

shadow99

Member
More on the LM/Indra angle: https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...in-to-manufacture-radar-for-f110-frigate.html

Note the article infers that missile tracking is handled by the S-band radar, and the X-band radar ("Prisma 25X") handles "surveillance of the surface and low-altitude aerial targets".
Information slowly starting to trickle out on LM SSR...

What I find interesting on the CSC radar setup is the narrow area surrounding the S band radar. Not sure if its been discussed before?

If the S band is for long range, would it make sense to use C band around the S band radar?
This would mean having dual vertical and dual horizontal C band radar to help discriminate and fire control? Any techies see logic in this?
Also, does physical seperation of the vertical and horizontal C bands help with targeting?
For reference, the spanish F110 looks like it uses seperate fire control radar fore and aft.

Is there a correlation in radar size vs frequency range. L and S band being quite large in size, down to X band being quite small in comparison.
If that is the case, could the 4 half domes (each a different size) located on each side of the mast be bands Ku, Ku, K, and Ka?
(The 2 Ku's being seperate frequencies) and being in domes are they likely to be physically stearable?
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Information slowly starting to trickle out on LM SSR...

What I find interesting on the CSC radar setup is the narrow area surrounding the S band radar. Not sure if its been discussed before?
.....
G'day @shadow99 Welcome to the forum. Please take time to acquaint yourself with the rules. We look forward to your contributions to the ongoing discussions. As an aside, it is welcoming to see more of our Canadian cousins coming aboard.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

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One of your articles says Raytheon deveoped the Next Generation Jammer. The other says "In 2016, Raytheon made headlines in the defense tech world by debuting its gallium nitrate (GaN)-based AESA upgrade to the Patriot". Neither of those was "inventing the technology" of GaN transistors.

SAAB publicly demonstrated its (fully functional) GaN AESA radars in 2014, developed & ready to sell. By 2016 they were being delivered to customers. Other rivals to Raytheon also developed the technology independently.

The idea was out there for a long time, & was being worked on quite a few countries, before any radars were produced.
Great to hear from you swerve. Yes, you are correct. My Bad. Galium Nitrade technology was actually invented by Dr. Douglas Carlson from MIT in the 1980's. Raytheon then used that GaN technology to advance it's AESA radar with companies such as Lockheed Martin, Thales, SAAB and others advancing that technology even further to develop their own Multi-function SSR's such as the USN SPY 6 (V) 1/ SPY 7 (V) 1/ CEAFAR2/APAR/ SEA FIRE 500 family of radars. I am learning sooooo much about this technology. Again, thanks for your input. Cheers!
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Great to hear from you swerve. Yes, you are correct. My Bad. Galium Nitrade technology was actually invented by Dr. Douglas Carlson from MIT in the 1980's. Raytheon then used that GaN technology to advance it's AESA radar with companies such as Lockheed Martin, Thales, SAAB and others advancing that technology even further to develop their own Multi-function SSR's such as the USN SPY 6 (V) 1/ SPY 7 (V) 1/ CEAFAR2/APAR/ SEA FIRE 500 family of radars. I am learning sooooo much about this technology. Again, thanks for your input. Cheers!
It's Gallium Nitride. https://www.mwrf.com/technologies/s.../nextgeneration-radar-systems-stock-up-on-gan

Also, a reference to your statement that this was "invented' by Dr. Douglas Carlson at MIT in the 1980s would be appreciated. My research suggests GaN for use as a transistor was in fact being researched far earlier, perhaps as early as the 1960s, if this article is to be believed:Tales of Discovery: Gallium Nitride - Office of Naval Research
 
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