Welcome to DefenceTalk.com Forum!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

LM/USN RE-DESIGNATE LRDR AS AN/SPY 7 (V) 1

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by DAVID DUNLOP, Nov 15, 2019.

Share This Page

  1. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    Rangitoto likes this.
  2. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,751
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Location:
    In the rum store
  3. MrConservative

    MrConservative Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    2,648
    Likes Received:
    790
    Location:
    Behind a Desk
    With the Raytheons AN/SPY 6 (v)2 EASR for the FFG(X) it is going to be fascinating seeing how they perform in the marketplace.

    USN calls EASR development “critical” for FFG(X) | Jane's 360
     
  4. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    I have been trying to get both MDA and LM Canada to "spill the beans" for weeks now about this radar but they have naturally been very secretive about it as they are still in the design phase of the CSC . Now that LM has publically announced it, maybe we can get some details. Although relatively un-proven, it seems to be a very good Air-Warning choice for Canada, the CSC and scalable. Finally an SSR with a BMD and Aegis capability that will rival the SPY 6(V) 1 or 4. The SPY 6 is still an excellent choice and if I had my "druthers", I would choose it, but as I said before, the SPY 6 family seems to be a bit too large for the CSC mast structure. If we had chosen it, don't know about power concerns with it. The LRDR (now SPY 7 (V) 1) is a good fit and from all reports I've read, has proven to be very high-end BMD radar. Japan has chosen the ground-based version of this radar as well. The US would not have offered this radar for Japan's ground-based BMD capabilities if they were not confident in it. It is rumored that LM is pitching the SPY 7 (V) 1 to the USN for it's FFX & LCS fleet as well. Canada may well be the "guinea pig" for this new radar from MDA & LM. Still, all in all, we could have done worse! Cheers!

    Dave Dunlop
     
    ngatimozart and MrConservative like this.
  5. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    I agree completely Conservative. How will this CSC SPY 7 (V) 1 radar on the CSC Frigate "stack-up" against the SPY 6 (V) 1 & 4 on the AB Flight lll's and AB flight II's? By the time Canada acquires the SPY 7 aboard the CSC, this LRDR radar may have progressed to the point where it might even out-perform the AMDR. I think someone was considering this and I believe we made the right decision in buying this LM radar. It also has a BMD "capability" just in case Canada decides to "re-negotiate" BMD with the US sooner rather than later. My thoughts anyway. Cheers!

    Dave Dunlop
     
  6. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
     
  7. Rangitoto

    Rangitoto New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    USA
    Indeed.

    Although, just to play devil's advocate for a second, I wonder how much the radar selection was a fait accompli with Lockheed Martin Canada being part of the winning bid to deliver the vessels?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  8. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    I believe you are 100% correct Rangitoto. LM and MDA were in "cahoots" right from the beginning on this one. LM was never going to use a radar from another company (Raytheon) when they had their own LRDR to "flog". Not that it's not a bad radar system and it gives Canada a great view to BMD and CEC.
     
    ngatimozart and Rangitoto like this.
  9. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,751
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Location:
    In the rum store
    Considering that it's AEGIS & CEC compatible and BMD capable, it does make sense for it to be included in the package. It should in theory integrate easily into the CMS-330 variant that the RCN are using on the CSC. Time will tell.
     
  10. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    Totally agree ngatimozart! I know a lot about the Halifax Class CCS 330 as I worked with it most of my Halifax Class career when I was in the Navy. Not sure what has changed though with the latest CMS 330 system. Could be a brand new "ballgame" with this new SPY 7(V) 1 radar though It should integrate seamlessly with CSC. We hope.........
     
    ngatimozart likes this.
  11. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    On another note, can anyone tell me what 4-sided phased array X Band radar is accompanying the S -Band SPY 7 (V) 1 on the CSC Frigate? Some photos show the radar on top of the SPY 7 (V) 1 and some show it on the bottom of the CSC mast structure. Is this some sort of Radar Controller?.... don't think so though. I can speculate, that it may be the APAR BLK2 X Band multi-function radar by Thales. This would be good to know. I am sooooo..... perplexed. Cheers!

    Dave Dunlop
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  12. Calculus

    Calculus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Posted this in the RCN thread as well.

    A bit more information on the SPY-7 radar selected for CSC, but as relates to the Japanese missile defense system: Japan Awards Contract to Lockheed Martin for 2 Solid State Radars for Aegis Ashore Batteries

    I found this quote interesting: "Japan selected the SSR in July 2018 over Raytheon’s SPY-6 radar system due to the SSR’s lower lifecycle costs, better overall system performance including more sophisticated target discrimination capabilities and cheaper acquisition and operating costs in comparison to the SPY-6, according to the Japanese MoD at the time."

    Looks like a very powerful and reliable system. Good choice by the RCN.
     
  13. Rangitoto

    Rangitoto New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    USA
    I'd be very surprised if LM paired their radar with the Thales' radar. I'd guess it's the same X-band radar being fitted to Spain's F110 frigate, which also uses the LM S-band radar.
    Lockheed Martin & Indra Extend their Collaboration for Spain's F-110 Frigate Program
    Spain starting construction of new F-110 frigates in May
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  14. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    Hi Rangitoto. On any given day I would totally agree with you. However, I don't see LM developing and testing any 4-sided Phased Array X Band Radar at this point. If you can set me straight on this one I would really appreciate it. The only X Band radar that "fits the bill" that I can see is Thales 4-sided X Band radar which could easily be fitted & harmonized with the SPY 7 (V) 1 and the CMS 330 Combat System on the CSC . Can you tell me what X Band radar the Spanish F-110 has or will be fitted with? The only Dual S & X Band radar I know of is the SPY 6 (V) 1 by LM. Since the CSC will not be fitted with that radar, as I said before, I am still soooooo confused.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  15. Calculus

    Calculus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Ottawa
    While it is acknowledged that models are not necessarily representative of reality, the LM CSC model was accurate with regards to the panel shape for what we now know to be a AN/SPY-7 variant. So I think if we assume the "targeting" or "illuminator" panels (which are clearly square) on the LM CSC model are also accurate, we can also assume these are NOT APAR Blk 2, as those panels are rectangular in shape, as is shown in the picture below (from this source: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/apar-active-phased-array-multifunction-radar).

    apar-bl2_1_0.jpg
     
  16. Calculus

    Calculus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Ottawa
  17. Calculus

    Calculus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    150
    Location:
    Ottawa
    And finally, the pic below refers to "Lockheed Martin's most advanced radar" (not radars), and clearly shows energy radiating from the larger panel (AN/SPY-7), but not the smaller square panel underneath. This suggests that radar is NOT an LM product. The mystery deepens. Perhaps a bespoke radar developed by MDA?

    LMCanada_CSC_SPY7.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 5:44 PM
  18. Rangitoto

    Rangitoto New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    USA
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 9:14 PM
    Calculus likes this.
  19. DAVID DUNLOP

    DAVID DUNLOP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    TRURO, NOVA SCOTIA
    Hi Calculus. I would certainly agree with you that LM is "favouring" the SPY 7 (V) 1 but there is definitely another radar there which I believe could be the Thales designed APAR four sided X Band phased array radar which is on both the Dutch Zeven Provincien Class and the German Sashen Class Frigates as shown below. It would appear to be the correct size and shape for the CSC Frigate radar mast. I don't believe MDA has designed an X Band Phased Array Radar at this time. How does it look to you? Cheers!
    upload_2019-11-30_17-14-1.jpg

    upload_2019-11-30_17-14-17.jpg upload_2019-11-30_17-16-7.jpg
    Dutch Zeven Provincien Class German Sachen Class
    Thales APAR has four fixed (i.e., non-rotating) sensor arrays (faces), fixed on a pyramidal structure.
    Each face consists of 3424 transmit/receive (TR) modules operating at X band frequencies




     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 9:37 PM
  20. Rangitoto

    Rangitoto New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    USA
    That's the APAR blk 1 which is 20 years old, analogue technology and no longer in production. I'm 100% sure it won't be that radar. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 10:50 PM
    Calculus likes this.