New Zealand Army

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Taking 700? I doubt it!
Think she can accommodate 250 troops, guess you could double it to 500, but 700 plus 90 odd vehicles, 2 NH 90,s Would be pushing it.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews483.pdf

Pages 10 and 11 of the latest Army News have an update on the progress with various weapon and support systems. Acronym-heavy, but probably interesting to those with a detailed interest in kit.
Read that with interest too. In the section about Special Operations Vehicles I noted reference to a 'Protected Heavy (Mobility)' project with the comment ... Contract returned from ADF and under review by MoD . A quick search of Aus SpecOps Protected Heavy Mobility shows the BushMaster. So from this do I deduce NZSAS will get 2nd hand ADF BushMasters much like Fiji did?
 

Norm

Member
Light Mortars update.

http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews483.pdf

Pages 10 and 11 of the latest Army News have an update on the progress with various weapon and support systems. Acronym-heavy, but probably interesting to those with a detailed interest in kit.
In the March Army News page 17 there is a good run down on the light mortars project.Three hand held mortars per company with a further 4 Bipod mortars in each Infantry Battalion.Interestingly the moneys in the ammunition with rounds costing similar to the 81mm mortar. The ammunition supply ship post Skyhawks,4 Frigate Navy & GFC only visits our shores once or twice a year is a constraint..Manufacture of the systems and ammo takes a year.No indication on quantities , so Im not sure if TF battalions included.:)
http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews480.pdf
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In the March Army News page 17 there is a good run down on the light mortars project.Three hand held mortars per company with a further 4 Bipod mortars in each Infantry Battalion.Interestingly the moneys in the ammunition with rounds costing similar to the 81mm mortar. The ammunition supply ship post Skyhawks,4 Frigate Navy & GFC only visits our shores once or twice a year is a constraint..Manufacture of the systems and ammo takes a year.No indication on quantities , so Im not sure if TF battalions included.:)
http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews480.pdf
Are NZ replacing their extant 81mm mortar capability with this 60mm system?
 

Norm

Member
Light Mortars update.

Are NZ replacing their extant 81mm mortar capability with this 60mm system?
Not that I'm aware off .The Battalions 81 mm Mortars were incorporated into 16th Field Regiment (161 Battery & 163 Battery ) (TF 11/4 Battery forms part of 16th Reg) and remain there. The light mortar gives albeit 60mm a mortar element to the infantry and SAS.Page 12 11/4 battery Training Nov Dec Army news page 12.Other Mortar Training articles in 2016 Army News as I recall.
http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews478.pdf
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Taking 700? I doubt it!
Think she can accommodate 250 troops, guess you could double it to 500, but 700 plus 90 odd vehicles, 2 NH 90,s Would be pushing it.
A B757 hop over and back must also be in the mix if they are basically sending over a Battalion sized contingent.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Read that with interest too. In the section about Special Operations Vehicles I noted reference to a 'Protected Heavy (Mobility)' project with the comment ... Contract returned from ADF and under review by MoD . A quick search of Aus SpecOps Protected Heavy Mobility shows the BushMaster. So from this do I deduce NZSAS will get 2nd hand ADF BushMasters much like Fiji did?
The Bushmasters are featured in this rather nice Australian Military Sales Equipment Catalogue pdf brochure.

http://www.defence.gov.au/casg/multimedia/amso_amse_catalogue-9-7885.pdf
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
A mix of Bushmaster and Hawkei would be a very good addition to the NZ armour inventory.

With both types being C130 transportable this would allow deployment options not currently available. If this were to happen is there value in regular Army units receiving either besides the SAS?

With the fleet of armour expected to be refreshed or replaced does it make sense to sell off some of the existing LAV's as has been talked about in the past. There must be friendly countries in need of this type of equipment. Is it likely that NZ will participate in Canada's program of upgrades to the LAV6? Again the economics of scale.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With both types being C130 transportable this would allow deployment options not currently available. If this were to happen is there value in regular Army units receiving either besides the SAS?
The Bushmaster cannot be transported in a C130, at least not any practical sense. If you wanted to move them around by air, you'd need a bigger aircraft.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Taking 700? I doubt it!
Think she can accommodate 250 troops, guess you could double it to 500, but 700 plus 90 odd vehicles, 2 NH 90,s Would be pushing it.
Most of the troops will deploy by air only a small amount will come across with CAN.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
The Bushmasters are featured in this rather nice Australian Military Sales Equipment Catalogue pdf brochure.

http://www.defence.gov.au/casg/multimedia/amso_amse_catalogue-9-7885.pdf
Interesting what is for sale.
Surprised to see the upgraded M113AS4s.
Considering they were only recently fully refurbished and many are not even driven but kept in storage, surely some will be kept by Australia, even when the new IFVs are purchased. Won't the Tracked Load Carriers and Mortar carriers be kept or will there be new versions of these bought with the IFV?
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The Bushmaster cannot be transported in a C130, at least not any practical sense. If you wanted to move them around by air, you'd need a bigger aircraft.
Raven the attachment info for the Bushmaster states C130 capable. So what has to be removed inoder for it to fit? The pintle for the HMG? I can understand a RWS.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Raven the attachment info for the Bushmaster states C130 capable. So what has to be removed inoder for it to fit? The pintle for the HMG? I can understand a RWS.
There's two issues. The height and the surface pressure. The Bushmaster is too high to fit under the wing box, so you have to take everything off the top off the vehicle and essentially completely deflate the tyres.

The surface pressure is a bigger issue. The floor of the C130 can't take all the weight of the Bushmaster on just four wheels. This normally wouldn't be too much of an issue as you would simply put the vehicle on some sort of dolly and push it in, but you can't do that because of the height problem. You therefore have to basically disassemble the vehicle to get as much weight off it as possible. This includes such things as the all the transparant armour (the windows) - it is not a simple or quick process. When it was tested it took five hours to disassemble one vehicle, and that was with mechanics that had been practicing the process, and that had every tool (including cranes) etc to hand. You then have to get everything onto the C130, then off at the other end and reassemble.

It is one of those things that is technically possible, but hardly practicable. Other than trialling it once, I don't think Australia has ever done it.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Interesting what is for sale.
Surprised to see the upgraded M113AS4s.
Considering they were only recently fully refurbished and many are not even driven but kept in storage, surely some will be kept by Australia, even when the new IFVs are purchased. Won't the Tracked Load Carriers and Mortar carriers be kept or will there be new versions of these bought with the IFV?

Was there some talk of Australian trials using the M113 as a potential unmanned logistic resupply vehicle.
With it's current planned retirement from 2025 maybe it might just reinvent itself and soldier on for another decade making it......................how old ???????

You never know it may happen!

Regards S
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
A B757 hop over and back must also be in the mix if they are basically sending over a Battalion sized contingent.
Is usually the case with these ex's, in fact CY is not even full full embarked forces, mainly crewman, drivers and a few add ons ie half full rooms (full 12 would get alittle cabin feverish IMO). They then try and swap out the guys on the return leg so more get a taste of the sea life (is not for everyone haha).

Enough pers to test CYs facilities but not generally overstretch for such a transit. Would no doubt be a luxury not afforded in realtime or on shorter legs dependant on the scenario.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
A mix of Bushmaster and Hawkei would be a very good addition to the NZ armour inventory.

With both types being C130 transportable this would allow deployment options not currently available. If this were to happen is there value in regular Army units receiving either besides the SAS?

With the fleet of armour expected to be refreshed or replaced does it make sense to sell off some of the existing LAV's as has been talked about in the past. There must be friendly countries in need of this type of equipment. Is it likely that NZ will participate in Canada's program of upgrades to the LAV6? Again the economics of scale.
Think we tried offloading the excess 35 to a south american customer awhile ago with no joy so perhaps not as easy as it seems. Would like to see a one for one replacement for the excess LAV with bushmaster to provide another coy lift capability (2/1 based?) amongst other roles to give us more practical options and added under armour capabilities. The 60 armoured pinzgauer variants need replacement ASAP as well IMHO, hawkei, LMT etc which will give us a wider and more importantly better suited range of armoured vehicles ie light, med, heavy (in a NZ context) supported by the armoured MANs.

Seems like the most logical and financially prudent course to tag onto the end of the LAV6.0 programme to keep our primary armour relevant but who knows. Cannot personally see govt offloading the relatively young current fleet and starting fresh, would actually be a feild day for all the nay sayers as well so not worth the headaches lol.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Think we tried offloading the excess 35 to a south american customer awhile ago with no joy so perhaps not as easy as it seems. Would like to see a one for one replacement for the excess LAV with bushmaster to provide another coy lift capability (2/1 based?) amongst other roles to give us more practical options and added under armour capabilities. The 60 armoured pinzgauer variants need replacement ASAP as well IMHO, hawkei, LMT etc which will give us a wider and more importantly better suited range of armoured vehicles ie light, med, heavy (in a NZ context) supported by the armoured MANs.

Seems like the most logical and financially prudent course to tag onto the end of the LAV6.0 programme to keep our primary armour relevant but who knows. Cannot personally see govt offloading the relatively young current fleet and starting fresh, would actually be a feild day for all the nay sayers as well so not worth the headaches lol.
Wonder if it would be feasible to convert some of the extra hulls to accomadated the Cockerill 105mm gun like the Suadi's, that way it put artillery under armor

Cockerill® XC-8 105-120HP : Greater Capability Through Innovation | CMI Group
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wonder if it would be feasible to convert some of the extra hulls to accommodate the Cockerill 105mm gun like the Saudis, that way it put artillery under armor

Cockerill® XC-8 105-120HP : Greater Capability Through Innovation | CMI Group
It has been a thought of mine for the last couple of years, that 18 - 24 of the NZLAV converted to a FS-SPG (Fire Support SPG) would not be a silly idea. The Cockerill 105mm turret has already been integrated onto the GDLS Canada LAV.

For a MLU I have also thought that the NZLAV should have as part of the MLU their turrets replaced / upgraded with 35mm dual feed autocannon and fitted with a sighting system such as or with similar capabilities to the SAAB UTAAS Tank and Anti-Aircraft System - Universal Sight and Fire-Control System These weapon systems would give the NZLAV a reasonably formidable capability for a relatively low cost.This capability would give the NZLAV an AAA capability which at present is a sadly lacking commodity in the NZ Army armoury. The 35mm gun combined with this sighting system would be quite formidable against helicopters, low flying aircraft and RPAS. The vehicle turrets should be fitted with the studs and electronic connections to enable the easy mounting and dismounting of vehicle box launchers for the FGM-148 Javelin Anti Tank Guided Missile and SHORAD missile such as Mistral or FIM-92 Stinger. The NZ Army already uses the Javelin as a man portable missile and Mistral as MANPAD. These two additions could be FFBNW on all the turrets with the weapons being mounted when required.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
As was identified by Canada during operations in Afghanistan the direct fire capability of initially our Leopard 1 tanks and then Leopard 2's to deal with bunker busting and obstacles was truly advantageous.

The 105 mm is still a formidable punch and unless it's up against a tank it will prevail. As has been stated the Cockeril turret would make a fine addition to surplus hulls during the likely MLU.

As to the 35 mm up gunning I strongly agree with this as well. A mini SPAAG would offer many benefits to a coalition land operation.

Throw in a mortar carrier and some ambulance conversions and you would be all set.

Is there an opportunity for NZ industry to take on these upgrades in country?
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews484.pdf

The latest batch of service publications are out on the NZDF website.

An article on Army 2020 contained this interesting line "For example, the Protected Mobility Capability Programme (PMCP) will introduce new operational vehicles into service from mid-2020. One of these could be an armoured vehicle similar to the Australian Bushmaster and American MRAP vehicles."

I'm unclear which vehicle variant would be considered under the MRAP heading. Given the UK has indicated an intent to buy the Humvee-replacing JLTV could that be considered?
British Army Works to Secure Oshkosh JLTV

There was also an interesting article on the selection process for a new sniper rifle - decision expected in August.
 
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