New Zealand Army

[Cadredave]

Yeah sorry I meant 7.62 x 51 for room clearing. You would have more experience with it than me but 7.62 throws splinters and nastiness all over the place. Definitely need MAG's, LSW and DM for everything but room to room, something handy is nice. I do like the guns being up close to the break in, incase you stumble into a corridor or funneled area but the steyr is good for those tight door spaces like in toilet cubicles etc where your barrel can be grabbed or being thrown through upper windows (I'm small so I was the runt used for that alot). Don't know enough about M4 myself but I'll go with it.
I have only seen the Charlie being used at a distance and holy hell. Using that for road blocks....awesome.
And a friend of mine bought a Vanguard in 300 Black out and so far he isn't overally taken with it. Be different in a Honey Badger I guess but it seems to lack the oomph of 7.62 x 39 with the supersonic and the Sub's seem anemic beyond 50m. Drop at a 100 was something ridiculous.
To be honest if I had my way we would use Finnish RK95 (7.62 x39) with the South African/Israeli thumb safety.

Im glad we are practicing UO or FIBUA for those like me who are tired of the change in terminology its one area we neglected for ages. CQB training is meant to be taught hand in hand with UO for those unexpected events like someone grabbing your barrel.

From what I can gather is the 300 Blackout is very different to the 300 BLK which looks like a very specialised round that the Dutch have introduced from what I can find on the net it looks like the 300 BLK has a reduced charge making it sub sonic at this stage cant confirm if its true or not but sounds plausible being the Dutch SF have begun procurement.

Will our SAS go for it unknown if SASR or 22SAS procure it then naturally we will follow. One thing I do know it will never become general issue for the Conventional forces.

CD

 

[worrior_v1]

How is recruitment like at the moment in the NZ defence force?

I'm thinking of enlisting as an infantry solider in the army. I've always wanted to join, however I've wanted to give Uni a shot here in Aus- though at the moment i'm not really enjoying it as much as I anticipated.

I've been on the official site and seen that there are intakes every 6 months, so if i were to apply at the end of this year, would there a good chance that i'll be accepted?

I'm fairly fit, 82kg, 6'1 and go to the gym and play sports regularly and always dreamed of enlisting and becoming an SAS solider. Any tips guys?

 

[kiwi in exile]

one of the Crib deployments sent a UOR back to NZ for M4's and used the excuse that they required it because the Steyr was hard to use in the confined space of the vehicle's.

CD

Interesting. Wonder what the real reason behind the request was. Kinda supports the rumour shane was mentioning. The NZSAS are obviously reasonably happy with them.

 

[Cadredave]

Interesting. Wonder what the real reason behind the request was. Kinda supports the rumour shane was mentioning. The NZSAS are obviously reasonably happy with them.

Simple if the SAS can have them why cant we, too busy wanting to be uber Spec ops cool instead of a detailed analysis. NZSAS can and does get what they want regardless of budget cuts one trooper can use up to 10000 rounds in one day on the range that's what a rifleman gets if he is lucky in a year. Don't forget different roles between SAS & Conventional Infantry.

 

[ngatimozart]

22 July 2015

Chief of Army, Major General (MAJGEN) Dave Gawn has been appointed Head of Mission/ Chief of Staff to the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation (UNTSO).

Chief of Defence Lieutenant General Tim Keating says this is a significant achievement for MAJGEN Gawn, and for NZ Defence Force.

“We are known as a force which trains and equips its personnel to succeed.* Around the world, NZ Defence Force has a great reputation for its professionalism, leadership and skills.

“Major-General Gawn’s appointment to this role is testament to his strong leadership. His ability to undertake a significant role on the international stage is an achievement he can be extremely proud of.”

MAJGEN Gawn will take over from current Head of Mission/Chief of Staff, Major General Michael Finn, of Ireland.

UNTSO was the first peacekeeping operation established by the United Nations, with the first military observers arriving in the Middle East in June 1948. UNTSO’s activities are spread over five host countries – Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syrian Arab Republic.

UNTSO military observers in the Middle East monitor ceasefires, supervise armistice agreements, prevent isolated incidents from escalating and assist other peacekeeping operations in the region to fulfil their respective mandates.

Twenty-six countries contribute military personnel to the mission, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Slovenia, Switzerland and the United States.

Currently eight NZ Defence Force personnel are serving with UNTSO in the Middle East.

While appointed as Head of Mission/ Chief of Staff UNTSO, United Nations’ protocols mean MAJGEN Gawn will wear a New Zealand Uniform but will not be a member of the NZ Defence Force.

It is likely MAJGEN Gawn will take up his new role on 1 August 2015.

NZ Defence Force wishes MAJGEN Gawn well in his new role.

ENDS

This announcement was on the NZDF website the other day. Well done sir. So now they will be looking for a new Chief of Army.

 

[Cadredave]

Rumour is that M4 layout is the only format being tested now. Some pers that were involved were very impressed with the options that made the chop but the barrel length, ergonomic and accessories options were the things still being decided. When I asked each of them if they would take an M4-like over a steyr they hesitated. With the amount of urban training the bullpup was a hard thing to loose but the modularity of the M4 layout was a pretty tasty thing also. whatever we get we'll make work.
Just hope we get to update the artillery and generally increase our overall combat power of the defence force as a whole.
7.62 by the bye is a great round and I love having it with the MAG's and LSW 7.62 but with urban being what it is there is a problem with over penetration and when you are up close 5.56 is useful with quick follow up shots. Also with state on state looming being able to train a larger number of soldiers quicker has a desirable aspect too.

No longer rumour Shane here it is cut & paste MoD site:

Current status
A Request for Tender for the provision of contemporary individual weapons, necessary training, and associated support to the NZDF closed on 12 November 2014. Following the evaluation of the tender responses, the companies listed below were selected for the trials programme phase of the evaluation, which was undertaken between 2 March and 1 June 2015.

The following companies were selected for the Individual Weapon trials phase:

Beretta New Zealand Limited
Česká zbrojovka a.s.
Colt Canada Corporation
FN HERSTAL
STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
Heckler & Kock GmbH
Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc,

Following the trials programme phase of the evaluation of tenders, the Ministry has selected Lewis Machine & Tool Co Inc of the USA as preferred Tenderer. Subject to the Ministry undertaking a Due Dilligence activity and negotiation of a contract package, New Zealand Government approval will be sought to proceed to award of a contract.

CD

 

[RegR]

No longer rumour Shane here it is cut & paste MoD site:

Current status
A Request for Tender for the provision of contemporary individual weapons, necessary training, and associated support to the NZDF closed on 12 November 2014. Following the evaluation of the tender responses, the companies listed below were selected for the trials programme phase of the evaluation, which was undertaken between 2 March and 1 June 2015.

The following companies were selected for the Individual Weapon trials phase:

Beretta New Zealand Limited
Česká zbrojovka a.s.
Colt Canada Corporation
FN HERSTAL
STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
Heckler & Kock GmbH
Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc,

Following the trials programme phase of the evaluation of tenders, the Ministry has selected Lewis Machine & Tool Co Inc of the USA as preferred Tenderer. Subject to the Ministry undertaking a Due Dilligence activity and negotiation of a contract package, New Zealand Government approval will be sought to proceed to award of a contract.

CD

Looks like a Gucci piece of kit. I see they make a stock anodized green version as an option, handy, saves people having to get all creative to 'recon' up their weapon for those bush walks to faraway places. Make a tan model and along with the classic black you've got all the shades of the military rainbow covered off for every occasion.

Now for the transition, imbed and proficiency.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Looks like my thinking wasn't so off the wall after all.

 

[Cadredave]

Looks like a Gucci piece of kit. I see they make a stock anodized green version as an option, handy, saves people having to get all creative to 'recon' up their weapon for those bush walks to faraway places. Make a tan model and along with the classic black you've got all the shades of the military rainbow covered off for every occasion.

Now for the transition, imbed and proficiency.

No matter what colour they purchase recon will still cam it up, me personally I hope they get tan coloured stocks and guards that colour fits more environments.

 

[ngatimozart]

No matter what colour they purchase recon will still cam it up, me personally I hope they get tan coloured stocks and guards that colour fits more environments.

As much as I don't like Wikipedia, I did look up the M4 and I see that LMT manufacture the M4 Mk18 CBQR with a 10.5 inch barrel. Dave, do you think hat is the rifle we will be getting or a longer barreled variant?

 

[RegR]

No matter what colour they purchase recon will still cam it up, me personally I hope they get tan coloured stocks and guards that colour fits more environments.

Tan would suit our current uniform/FSMO better although in a true jungle AO you could not go past straight green and would have complimented the old regular DPM better IMO. Realistically we would only need a coy+ groups worth minimum of the non 'standard' factory options to cover off the 3 shades if they did decide on more variety so 250-300 options alongside the majority primary shade is still very acheivable within the overall total either way.

If more weapons came as standard from the factory (tan, green) the usual black weapon systems of old could in fact become the niche vs the norm dependant on main environs, how times have changed and evolved aye, what was once considered spec is now more and more general issue and widespread in terms of kit and options.

 

[Cadredave]

As much as I don't like Wikipedia, I did look up the M4 and I see that LMT manufacture the M4 Mk18 CBQR with a 10.5 inch barrel. Dave, do you think hat is the rifle we will be getting or a longer barreled variant?

No definately not the Mk18but if you go to LMT (Lewis machine tools) web site you will see they manufacture both a piston & direct gas impingement systems again both come available with a standard 16 inch barrel.

Now since NZDF stated a 20 inch barrel with the ability to change to a 16 LMT can manufacture any configuration to suit your needs, now since the prices on the web site are for individual rifles im sure the price will be alot cheaper if not then NZDF will go to the second best on the list.

Since NZDF already has the majority of weapon sites and other ancillaries they could be only supplying the weapon, magazines & flip up iron sites who knows but good times ahead to be a young Infantryman.

CD

 

[Cadredave]

Tan would suit our current uniform/FSMO better although in a true jungle AO you could not go past straight green and would have complimented the old regular DPM better IMO. Realistically we would only need a coy+ groups worth minimum of the non 'standard' factory options to cover off the 3 shades if they did decide on more variety so 250-300 options alongside the majority primary shade is still very achievable within the overall total either way.

You would be very surprised, the best colour in the Jungle is not green but a combination of all three, but the two senses that are prominent in the Jungle are smell & sound with sight coming a very distant last place. The only time sight is involved in the jungle is when it captures movement mainly in your peripheral vision. Very few have the ability to really see through the foliage and pick up something.

If more weapons came as standard from the factory (tan, green) the usual black weapon systems of old could in fact become the niche vs the norm dependant on main environs, how times have changed and evolved aye, what was once considered spec is now more and more general issue and widespread in terms of kit and options.

My best guess would be the store shop concept for Tier 1 & 2 troops having the ability to pick and choose both barrel length & different ancillaries plus the ability to change butt & hand guards so Tier 2 weapons will definately be alot different in configuration and purpose to the Tier 3 Rifles our Operational experience taught us that, you can bet it will follow the same path as the 7.62mm LMG.

Tier three will come in a bog standard colour as most of these weapons will be for CSS troops bet your life they will come standard with a 16 inch barrel same for RNZAF & RNZN. 8800 rifles is enough to outfit both RF Battalions and the CS, CSS personal & RNZAF, RNZN.

Last but not least you have finally one weapon system across the three services which will make the training transition times shorter from tier 3 - tier 1 when those go to conduct the NZSAS selection & 9 month cycle something like this was meant to happen in the early 80's. anyway good times ahead.

Dave

 

[40 deg south]

You would be very surprised, the best colour in the Jungle is not green but a combination of all three, but the two senses that are prominent in the Jungle are smell & sound with sight coming a very distant last place. The only time sight is involved in the jungle is when it captures movement mainly in your peripheral vision. Very few have the ability to really see through the foliage and pick up something.



My best guess would be the store shop concept for Tier 1 & 2 troops having the ability to pick and choose both barrel length & different ancillaries plus the ability to change butt & hand guards so Tier 2 weapons will definately be alot different in configuration and purpose to the Tier 3 Rifles our Operational experience taught us that, you can bet it will follow the same path as the 7.62mm LMG.

Tier three will come in a bog standard colour as most of these weapons will be for CSS troops bet your life they will come standard with a 16 inch barrel same for RNZAF & RNZN. 8800 rifles is enough to outfit both RF Battalions and the CS, CSS personal & RNZAF, RNZN.

Last but not least you have finally one weapon system across the three services which will make the training transition times shorter from tier 3 - tier 1 when those go to conduct the NZSAS selection & 9 month cycle something like this was meant to happen in the early 80's. anyway good times ahead.

Dave

CD - Thanks for the info - very interesting.

ZA - Now you have the crystal ball calibrated, how about some RWC predictions?

 

[Zero Alpha]

ZA - Now you have the crystal ball calibrated, how about some RWC predictions?

It will be a game of two halves. Rugby will be the winner on the day.

I'll also confidently predict that the same noise we heard when the SLR was replaced will be replicated with the Steyr replacement!

 

[shanes_world_05]

It will be a game of two halves. Rugby will be the winner on the day.

I'll also confidently predict that the same noise we heard when the SLR was replaced will be replicated with the Steyr replacement!

How about "its a game of 80 minutes and commentary of two weeks", "Its more than a trophy its a cup" and "its world cup so we don't want the bledisloe" anyway....

Any word on whether its DI or gas piston? 16" barrel seems a good bet but has there been anything firm on that?
And as far as I am aware the LMT has common gas port length but varying barrels that can be removed and replaced via two torx or allen screws.
Alot of the guys involved in the trials were picking LMT or H&K.
And sights? anybody know on that one? Irons are all good but M68 or ACOG across the board would be nice.
For what its worth I did have bad experiences with Lithgow Steyr's and M203 steyr's but I thought it was a great weapon and will really miss it. But if these are cheaper and we can use that money for more Jav or more mortars all good by me.

 

[kiwi in exile]

I was picking the H&K 416 based on the gas piston system, wasnt aware that LMT had a gas piston system. Interesting to see whether we go with DI or GP. Wonder how much of a price difference there was between tenders.
Will it have free floating barrel?
LMT seems logical given out experience with the DMR.

Regarding optics: from the pics posted on NZDF media, most of the steyrs shown tend to have the 1.5 fixed sites and I have always assumed that NZDF was relativly short on advanced optics. Although this may just be result of shortage of rifles with rails. Can anyone clarify this. Also, I wonder if we will sick with ACOG as the standard optic or if we will go for a mixed fleet model. Of course this may cost more and involve more training, but may be more versatile, and individualised weapons system (which was one of the criteria of the rifle replacement program). Individual shooters will have their preferences, and while ACOGs are ideal for distance shooting and open country, M68s, EOTECHs might be preferred for CQB/urban.

 

[RegR]

You would be very surprised, the best colour in the Jungle is not green but a combination of all three, but the two senses that are prominent in the Jungle are smell & sound with sight coming a very distant last place. The only time sight is involved in the jungle is when it captures movement mainly in your peripheral vision. Very few have the ability to really see through the foliage and pick up something.



My best guess would be the store shop concept for Tier 1 & 2 troops having the ability to pick and choose both barrel length & different ancillaries plus the ability to change butt & hand guards so Tier 2 weapons will definately be alot different in configuration and purpose to the Tier 3 Rifles our Operational experience taught us that, you can bet it will follow the same path as the 7.62mm LMG.

Tier three will come in a bog standard colour as most of these weapons will be for CSS troops bet your life they will come standard with a 16 inch barrel same for RNZAF & RNZN. 8800 rifles is enough to outfit both RF Battalions and the CS, CSS personal & RNZAF, RNZN.

Last but not least you have finally one weapon system across the three services which will make the training transition times shorter from tier 3 - tier 1 when those go to conduct the NZSAS selection & 9 month cycle something like this was meant to happen in the early 80's. anyway good times ahead.

Dave

Yes agreed on weapon cam just saying for the the bulk of users, ie non SF, recon etc, 'adapting' your personal weapon to your surroundings via your inner military artist is basically a no no and definately not the norm so any advantage in this area would be advantageous and therefore a factory base colouring could provide these benefits to a lesser degree without the need for individual modification keeping the hierarchy happy. The steyrs are somewhat already along these lines with army/AF having green bodies and naval versions having dark blue/black bodies along with current Aus versions with tan barrels and upper receivers to better suit their main working areas. Same concept that could be applied more specifically (dependant on theatre) with a pool of each custom built straight from the factory.

No doubt there will be a pecking order on sights and ancillaries dependant on funds allocated but this is only natural as obviously for the likes of infantry this is their feed and area of expertise in comparison to other corps and are somewhat employed differently from unit to unit. In a perfect world all soldiers will be kitted out to the nines but due to expense, exposure and employment this is not either affordable, practical or warranted.

As time goes on more and more equipment and capabilities filter out to units that back in the day would not have generally had access to as more kit is brought online, stocks increased or UORs from ops are implemented. As for barrel lengths I think more often these days it is not just down to definers such as combat/non-combat trades or infantry/rest of army etc as more so task required. Certain trades within army obviously have their requirements such as tankies with carbines and is their standard IW but sometimes the role dictates it. RNZAF actually currently do have short barrels in use for roles such as helo crewman, re-fueller etc and ops such as Farad (tri-service) where the shorter barrel is the only length in their armoury for ease of use in vehicles so there is precedence for use by other corps, trades and services.

I get what you mean regarding tiers I'm just saying as the years have gone on and more combined patrol ops (even service) have been undertaken more recently in terms of kit exposure the lines have crossed over abit more, signs of a modern military in complex times. There is definately still the varying levels of fitout and access and rightly so as there is still the individual job descriptions and clearly defined roles and responsibilities.

Hopefully they go full noise and get a decent amount of sights and ancillaries (and appropriate quality) to make full use of this for maximum effectiveness as unlike most platforms within inventory every uniformed NZDF per will actually use this at some stage in their career.

 

[Zero Alpha]

I hear a fixed 4x ACOG site for combat units, with something better available for open country ops. A variety of barrel lengths will be purchased. Doesn't sound like a call has been made for everyone else yet.

Sounds like the company arms room concept is likely to get the green light with some latitude on bells and whistles at the company OCs discretion.

 

[ngatimozart]

I hear a fixed 4x ACOG site for combat units, with something better available for open country ops. A variety of barrel lengths will be purchased. Doesn't sound like a call has been made for everyone else yet.

Sounds like the company arms room concept is likely to get the green light with some latitude on bells and whistles at the company OCs discretion.

The RNZN will like the differing barrel lengths then, because long barreled rifles can create difficulties in the close confinements found onboard boarded vessels. Whereas the security platoon would use the long barreled weapons when ashore.